I am in a quandary about B12 - Igennus Super B complex

[Caroline888]

I am a vegetarian and for years I have taken a Holland & Barrett multivitamin and until diagnosed with Hashimoto's 18 months ago that was the only supplement I took.

Obviously I have learned here that multis are considered pretty useless.

My problem is that when my blood was tested on diagnosis, my B12 and folate were both slightly above range which is apparently optimum when you are treating hypothyroidism. The multi contains 25 mcg vitamin B12 cyanocobalamin (1000% NRV) and 200 mcg folic acid (100% NRV) - these obviously aren't in the recommended forms.

Following general advice on the site, I bought Igennus Super B complex. Now comes the problem: even half of one of these tablets will provide me with 225 mcg B12 methylcobalamin and 100 mcg folate.

I would like to stop taking the multi and replace with the Igennus B complex but wonder if just half a tablet daily will send my B12 sky high. Clearly I am not deficient at the moment, whilst taking a dose which is almost ten times less than just one half tablet would provide.

I really don't know which way to go and would really appreciate some guidance.

With thanks as always for your help.

Best wishes

Caroline

[greygoose]

25 mcg B12 is a very, very small dose. It's quite usual to take 1000 mcg sublingual, where you will absorb more than from a pill that you swallow.

[Caroline888 in reply to greygoose]

Thank you greygoose for your quick response.

I do appreciate what you say about 25 mcg B12 being a small dose. Perhaps in view of my blood test results showing a high level of B12, I shouldn't be taking a B12 supplement at all. The reason I was taking the multi was because, being a vegetarian for nearly 50 years, I felt it was some kind of insurance against deficiencies in general. I do eat quite a healthy diet though I am not a big eater. I have always understood that B12 deficiency was a risk with a vegetarian diet.

Thank you anyway for your advice - always appreciated.

Best wishes

Caroline

[greygoose in reply to Caroline888]

Try not taking B12 for a while, see if your levels drop.

You only find B12 in meat, not veggies, which is why a lot of vegetarians are B12 deficient. But, there's plenty of B12 in eggs, if you eat them. and small amounts in dairy.

[Caroline888 in reply to greygoose]

Thanks greygoose for your reply.

My original inclination was just to stop taking the multivitamin and retest after a time.

However I have now done some more research, having been directed by Marz to the difference between serum b12 and active b12, and I’m coming round to thinking I should not stop supplementing. As a vegetarian who does not care for eggs and doesn’t drink milk per se, I think the chance that I am active-b12 deficient is high. I eat cheese and a daily natural yoghurt but likely not in sufficient quantities to achieve the RDA of vitamin b12.

My mum suffered from vascular dementia and was prescribed b12 at her very first appointment at the Memory Clinic. Apparently vitamin b12 deficiency can lead to cognitive decline.

I have been told that if I were to stop supplementing b12 it would take many months for a change in the blood to become apparent. Obviously I don’t know whether this is true but perhaps the risk of too much b12 is preferable to the risk of too little.

I am thinking of stopping the multi and taking half a tablet of Igennus Super B complex until the bottle runs out after four months, then retesting. Hopefully the worst outcome would be expensive urine!!

Thank you so much for all your support. It is great to have this site to call on when dilemmas and problems arise and as always I am very grateful for it.

Best wishes

Caroline

[greygoose in reply to Caroline888]

If your B12 in a serum test is very high - but you still haven't told us the result - it's unlikely to be deficient in an active test. But, of course, best to check.

Low B12 can lead to all sorts of terrible problems, but long-term. Not in the five months it would take your B12 to drop to base level - and that might happen even faster. I wasn't suggesting you stop supplementing B12 for good, just to see if it drops quickly.

But, you really should change the multi for a B complex with just B vits, nothing else. It's not good to take everything together like you're forced to do when you take a multi because you won't absorb much from it. It's just a waste of money. A good B complex would do you far more good.

[Caroline888 in reply to greygoose]

When last tested my serum b12 was as follows: B12 856 ng/L [190 - 800]

I was only taking 25 mcg of cyanocobalamin in a multi at that time, supposedly 1000% of RDA.

Are you discouraging me from taking half a tablet of Igennus Super B complex for four months? What would be the disadvantage if the body excretes any excess?

[greygoose in reply to Caroline888]

Not at all. How did you get that idea? It was just a suggestion to find out if you really needed the B complex, given that you have a good level of B12 anyway. I very much doubt that 25 mcg of cyanocobalamin in a multi pill did much to raise it that high. So, it must have got there naturally. It was just for your information. That's all.

[Caroline888 in reply to greygoose]

Thanks. I am bewildered by all the avalanche of conflicting advice but all will become clear eventually I guess. Not that I’m not grateful for everyone’s help - I really am! But I think I will have to sleep on it.

I suppose I have gradually become convinced that with my limited diet I must inevitably be deficient in b12. Having looked in detail at what I eat, I cannot think that I have enough vitamin b12 in my diet. I eat lots of nuts and seeds which, though nutritious, don’t contain vitamin b12. Natural yoghurt and cheese are the only b12-containing foods I eat regularly. Two eggs a week, at the most, contribute very little.

You say the vitamin b12 “must have got there naturally”. Is there a way it could do that other than through diet? I have been a vegetarian for nearly 50 years?

[Caroline888 in reply to greygoose]

Thanks greygoose for your help and advice earlier this week.

0n reflection, I have decided to stop taking the Holland & Barrett multivitamin and hold back on the Igennus Super B complex until I have established a base level as per one of your suggestions.

You mentioned five months as being a suitable time to refrain from taking B12, this with a view to seeing if I do in fact need to supplement.

Since I do have a high level of serum B12 at present, would you recommend that I do a Medichecks ultravit about June or July? Would that be long enough to give a good indication of my B12 status when not taking a B12 supplement? I understand that B12 is stored in the liver.

Any comments or advice gratefully received.

Best wishes

Caroline

[greygoose in reply to Caroline888]

July should be good.

[Caroline888 in reply to greygoose]

Thank you😊. Will put in on my calendar!!

All the best

Caroline

[greygoose in reply to Caroline888]

Good luck!

[Caroline888 in reply to greygoose]

Thanks😊. Expect I’ll be posting again in July when I have my result!!

[PolyannaYorkshire in reply to greygoose]

I cannot get Igennus to dissolve under tongue I have to crunch them. Is this usual,,?!!

[greygoose in reply to PolyannaYorkshire]

Are you talking about B12 or the B complex? If it's the B complex it won't disolve, no. You have to swallow it.

[PolyannaYorkshire in reply to greygoose]

Hi.... its called: ingennusSuper B-12 Complex

Highly absorbant sublingual...& Says it must be pit under the tongue...It wont dissolve at all for me...even an hour later.

I've got to sort myself out as I feel like giving up. Thanks for your help greygoose

[greygoose in reply to PolyannaYorkshire]

I don't think I've ever had that one. So, I really can't say. I didn't even know that Igennus did a sublingual B12. Mine is Now, and it desolves very well.

I used to buy Igennus B complex, which contains vit C, until I learnt that it's not advisable to take B12 and vit C together. But it wasn't sublingual. Now I buy Thorne Basic B.

[PolyannaYorkshire in reply to greygoose]

I contacted them to ask if I had got a faulty batch as mine do not melt/dissolve... I eventually got a reply saying they had no other complaints so no problem!! Someone online has suggested I get injections from Germany... Have you tried these at all?

[greygoose in reply to PolyannaYorkshire]

I have not, no. The person to help you with injections is Marz - if she would be so kind.

[PolyannaYorkshire in reply to greygoose]

Thanks greygoose. I'll see if I can get a rey from her

[greygoose in reply to PolyannaYorkshire]

She'll probably see that I've tagged her tomorrow morning, and will reply.

[PolyannaYorkshire in reply to greygoose]

Thanks! 🤗

[greygoose in reply to PolyannaYorkshire]

You're welcome.

[Russellb73]

I wouldn't worry about too much b12 and as others have said the your body will not consume the max by tablet form, injections are the best way, I use patches as well which help after 4 weeks when I start to feel the effects wear off

I am a vegetarian as well and I suffer with under active thyroid B12 and bid D deficiency and Addisons disease

[Caroline888 in reply to Russellb73]

Thanks, Russellb73, for your reply. My concern is due to the fact that everyone says you should only take supplements if blood tests show you are deficient in a particular vitamin. Clearly, since my B12 level is slightly above range I am not deficient. The amount of B12 in my multi is considered to be very small (25 mcg). It's a puzzle! Perhaps I should just stop taking the multivitamin.

I hope you are managing to get the proper treatment and are feeling well.

Best wishes

Caroline

[greygoose in reply to Caroline888]

You certainly should stop taking the multi-vit. They are really not recommended for many, many reasons.

[Marymary7]

Apparently you cannot have too much as it's water soluble and you simply loose excess in the loo. I'm taking b12 too and my active level is high but I think I need it. I'm using 'Better You spray b12'.

[Caroline888 in reply to Marymary7]

Thank you Marymary7 for taking the time to reply.

I would like to stop taking the multivitamin and replace with half a tablet Igennus Super B complex so your saying that your active level of B12 is high and you feel better for it is really helpful. Is it very high? Can it be too high? My level is already above range when taking a multivitamin containing only 25mcg B12 cyanocobalamin - which I know is not the best form.

Thanks for your advice - I'm grateful.

Best wishes

Caroline

[Marymary7 in reply to Caroline888]

HLAB35 below gave you an excellent answer. Avoid Cyno.

They say that multivitamins are a waste of money as they either cancel each other out or they contain bad forms that are hard or impossible to absorb. Such as Magnesium Oxide instead if all the other types such as Citrate or Malate.

My active b12 is 175 pmol/L range 37.5 to 188. People who have to inject B12 everyday are way over because they need it in pernicious anemia. Check out sister site for PA on here.

Check out the vitamins recommended by @seasidesusie or others on here.

😀

[Caroline888 in reply to Marymary7]

So your level is high but not over range - optimal in fact! I understand what you say, though, about injections producing very high levels but presumably these levels are not constant - they drop over time until the next injection becomes necessary.

Based on the advice given, I am thinking I will drop the multi and take half an Igennus tablet for a time, then do a blood test to monitor the B12 level. Thank you so much for your help. Before, I was totally at a loss as to which way to go. Now things are a lot clearer.

Thanks again.

Best wishes

Caroline

[Marymary7 in reply to Caroline888]

My b12 February a year ago was 108 so constant under tongue spraying BetterYou b12 for one year brought it nearly to the top. It was the same level as now in Aug 2018 so not risen since then. I don’t worry if its over only under. I don’t eat meat either so i want to be covered. 😀

[Deeseona]

I find the B12 spray best for absorption and have also read that you loose the excess if the body doesn’t need it when you urinate, so not a worry.

[Deeseona]

Sorry meant lose!

[Caroline888 in reply to Deeseona]

Hi Deeseona,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It is really helpful to know that B12 is water-soluble. As greygoose has said in the past, too much just makes for expensive urine!

Thanks again for your help

Best wishes

Caroline

[Polly91]

I take the B complex by Seeking Health - it was recommended by a practitioner.

[HLAB35]

Cyanocobalamin is only good for making serum blood levels look good.. it will build up in the bloodstream and the serum test will not differentiate. It's because methylcobalamin actually gets used.. because it's already in the correct form and requires no conversions..

This video by Ben Lynch ND explains the differences in a very blunt straightforward way.

youtube.com/watch?v=1RV13Oa...(Not working as expected?)

[Caroline888 in reply to HLAB35]

Thank you so much for hunting out the video for me! It was very helpful.

I also appreciated your explanation as to why cyanocobalamin is not a good form of B12.

Thanks again for taking the trouble to help me - I’m grateful.

Best wishes

Caroline

[HLAB35 in reply to Caroline888]

No problem The same chap does a video about methylfolate.

Unfortunately the cyano form is pretty ubiquitous (as is folic acid) and food manufacturers boast about including it as though it were pure ambrosia.

[Caroline888 in reply to HLAB35]

Thanks. I’ll look out that video. My folate is also above range but half an Igennus tablet wouldn’t provide an excessive amount of that so no problem. And it’s in the right form too😊.

Thanks again.

[AnneEvo]

Like you, being vegetarian made sure I took B12 but as other B vits are good I was taking B Complex (switched to methylated form months ago). Also like you my B12 is over range. I've decided not to take any supplements for a while as ferritin is ok; don't know about vit D. (I'm not advising you, I don't know enough just saying what I'm doing). I'll see how I feel and keep testing to keep an eye on things. I haven't been on levo long.

[Marz]

B12 is needed in the cells - so the blood test reading is a guide only. The Active B12 Test differs from the Serum routine Test, in that it indicates the amount of B12 in the blood that is available to travel to the cells ...

On the Pernicious Anaemia Forum - here on HU - they say Cyanocobalamin is just fine as is Folic Acid - whereas we talk here about Methylcobalamin and Folate. All a matter of choice it seems and what suits an individual. I self inject Hydroxocobalamin and take Methylfolate in the B Complex.

biolab.co.uk/docs/vitaminB1...

[Caroline888 in reply to Marz]

Thank you very much for taking the trouble to reply and for giving me the very useful link which I shall study in more detail later.

Prompted by all the advice I have been given I have been doing some research, particularly into the difference between serum b12 and active b12 (thank you for that!😊). I have learned that even with an over-range serum b12 I could still be deficient as only 10 - 30% of it would be available to the cells. In view of my vegetarian diet and the fact that I eat a maximum of two eggs a week, I do think I probably need to continue taking a b12 supplement. I am particularly concerned as my mum had vascular dementia and the Memory Clinic prescribed b12 at her very first appointment as apparently b12 deficiency can be a cause of cognitive decline.

I am thinking of stopping the multi and taking just half a tablet of Igennus Super B complex until the bottle runs out after four months. Then doing another blood test to see where I am. I do supplement other vitamins as necessary or as recommended on the site.

Anyway, thank you so much for your help and advice. I am grateful.

Best wishes

Caroline

[Marz in reply to Caroline888]

Once supplementing B12 - further test results will be skewed .. this is mentioned in the Guidelines for Folate and Cobalamin Treatment. Hope all goes well ... Testing MMA & Homocysteine - if raised - can indicate low B12 in the cells.

[Caroline888 in reply to Marz]

As I've been taking the relatively small amount of vitamin b12 in a multi for years, I guess my test results would already be skewed. Now that I've looked into this in a bit more detail I think it would be surprising if I didn't need to supplement. I don't care for eggs or milk, and cheese and yoghurt can only go so far towards achieving the RDA! I'll give it a try anyway. Thanks again for your help.

Best wishes

Caroline

[AnneEvo]

This is worth a look too Caroline: b12-vitamin.com/types/ There's a table showing the effects of the different types of B12.

[Caroline888 in reply to AnneEvo]

Thanks Anne, that link was really interesting and helpful. So much conflicting advice but I think I’m a bit closer now to knowing what to do😊. Thanks again.

[MariLiz]

As I understand it, your body will excrete any excess B12, so it shouldn’t be a problem.

[Caroline888 in reply to MariLiz]

Thanks MariLiz, I have just about come to that conclusion and have decided that the risk of too much b12 is preferable to the risk of too little!!

Thanks for taking the time to respond😊.

Best wishes

Caroline

[SlowDragon Administrator]

I now take just half of one Igennus tablet a day.

After about a year improving levels on one tablet a day

Remember to stop taking any supplements with biotin in a week before any blood tests

[Caroline888 in reply to SlowDragon]

Thanks SlowDragon, that’s very useful to know. At the moment I’ve stopped taking vitamin b complex as I plan on testing b12 in July to establish a baseline. I think half a tablet might well then be the way to go for me too!

Thanks for the update. Take care.

Best wishes

Caroline

[PolyannaYorkshire]

I have Igennus Super B12 complex but they won't dissolve under my tongue. Do you have this problem? Gp always says my B 12 OK but I do not feel good & symptoms are all Vit B12..so...Hope you're sorted now I see it was a while ago your message,

[Noelnoel]

If for the moment you’re nervous about stopping the supplement altogether, perhaps consider taking half a tablet on alternate days or every third day and see how you go. That way you know you’re getting some at least and for now that will surely be enough

That’s what my husband and I are doing at the moment because although mine was within range it was very high and would’ve gone over range had I continued on a daily dose. If my memory serves me, I think hubby was slightly over range. Our next test will tell us how we’re doing. You could do the same and perhaps re-test in a couple of months just to ascertain whether you’re going in the right direction. I have no idea at what rate levels fall but I do know that mine and husband’s rose quite quickly

Good luck

[Noelnoel]

Gosh, I’ve just realised your post is three years old! They’ve made some changes to the site and I find I’ve got several old posts. Not sure why they’ve done this …

Sorry to have bothered you. Your query is probably long resolved!

[Caroline888 in reply to Noelnoel]

Thank you so much for your advice which I find very helpful indeed. So no bother at all!☺️. Since my original post I have concentrated on including b vitamin-rich foods in my diet and not bothering with a supplement. I have done blood tests now and again to check my levels which have declined but are still reasonably good.However I do like your idea of taking a low dose of vitamin b complex every other day or every third day! I will certainly give that a try.

Thank you for taking the trouble to share your ideas. I am very grateful.

Best wishes

Caroline

[Noelnoel]

My absolute pleasure Caroline and thank you for thanking me! Great idea to test a couple of times a year just to be sure you’re still getting enough