Moving to NDT?

Just received my new protocol for my gut dysbiosis and Candida and she recommended it worth me trying NDT.

"I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea for you to switch over from Thyroxine + T3 to a natural desiccated thyroid. I would buy all three strengths or the 15mg and the 60mg and adjust dose from there. 60mg is equivalent to 60mg thyroxine, so

you could do 90mg and go up if you needed to. It’s much more easily absorbed and utilised as it contains all thyroid hormones and not just T4 and T3.This is of course, up to you, but I think taking liothyronine when you have a history of depression and anxiety is not a very good idea at all."

Could she be onto something with her comments?

31 Replies

Jefner Just a couple of comments.

1) She said "but I think taking liothyronine when you have a history of depression and anxiety is not a very good idea at all."

Liothyronine is sometimes used in the treatment of depression - Google it.

2) You have linked to Metavive I. If this is what she is suggesting you take then is not a true NDT like Armour, Erfa, WP Thyroid, etc, or the Thai NDTs. Metavive I is a glandular, it contains 'porcine thyroid gland' and does not have specified amounts of T4, T3 or other thyroid hormones.

My observation - does she really know what she is talking about? Is this the one you weren't happy with and was thinking of finding another?

I can't advise you what you should do as I'm not medically trained, that must be your choice, but you should do some research before deciding if you want to go down this route.


This is my new one at a London Clinic. I think she recommended it because she is also on it and felt much better. I won't be considering a change at the moment as I need to get the gut issues sorted first

Well, she might be doing well on it but she is talking out of her b*m with those two points I made.

Bless you that you found 'bum' too strong to spell out. :-)

:D :D

I'm not quite sure how far we can go!!! (Or what's acceptable to other people, I'm very considerate :D )

What is in my head and what I type is vastly different :D

I was thinking of a recent reply I posted to something that had made me very angry indeed (someone's treatment at the hands of a doctor) and I think I asterisked the whole word. :-) (I was very cross.)

I agree w SS above and would add that it depends on how you feel right now. If you have some semblance of well-being on your current meds I'd be concerned about risking it to go down the Metavive route. Why is this the recommendation rather than say Armour or Erfa? Because the choices are limited to what she has access to? I'd like to see the evidence that Metavive is 'more easily absorbed and utilised' than liothyronine.

Does your practitioner know the extent of your history, is she clued in to the depth of your former issues? Because you have seemed better emotionally for some time (I only know what I see when I read your posts here) and shaking that up is a big risk to take. I say this as someone who also suffered very badly w depression and anxiety and I would not want to go back there on a promise of theoretically feeling better on Metavive, at least until I had all my ducks in a row, everything else sorted, an excellent, supportive, accessible and *very knowledgeable* practitioner, and a plan for what to do if I felt unwell.

I tried one of the otc ndt products (the one Dr L developed) and went very hypo, lost a lot of hair etc because I had feelings of being overmedicated (hot red face mainly, and fluttery heart) and was concerned about raising the dose. It was a long drawn-out process, I had to find gelatin capsules and measure out half doses and for such a big faff I had no good results. I wouldn't say it shouldn't be done at all, just that I'd want to have a lot of confidence in the person who was leading me through it.


Thanks for your input hon. I won't be going down that route. I can't mess with too many things as I have a lot going on. Feeling slightly better at the moment but the anxiety is very severe most of the time and I know it's down to the gut issues I have which I have been trying to sort. I wasn't happy with my former nutritionist because after 2 protocols we still hadn't got anywhere. When she showed me the third one, I thought that's it, far too high in supplements and would have done more harm than good I believe.

Just can't find anyone to really help to be honest. Have tried alone but got nowhere which is why I have been trying to find someone.

If this new one doesn't work then it's the end for me, I can't exist like this for the rest of my days

Are you still feeling quite unwell even now? You have a number of options, this doesn't need to be the last chance saloon. It might be worth trying ndt, but I'd go for something properly therapeutic, not an otc supplement.

Or what about trying Metavive as well as your current combo? Is that too unpredictable?


Haven't been well for 18 months hon and as I have just said to Clutter I don't think I am ever going to get well. Tried too much and nothing is working and I won't spend the rest of my days existing like this. Still having therapy but that doesn't take my f***ing symptoms away. On my third nutritionist now and I have found many faults in her recommendations. There is just no-one else to help me so I have to call it quits somewhere along the line. I have had enough


I think she's talking out of her rear. Liothyronine has long been used in the treatment of antidepressant refractory depression.

Metavive is a dietry supplement it is not NDT. 60mg of prescription NDT contains 38mcg T4 and 9mcg T3 which is equivalent to 65mcg Levothyroxine but Metavive is a dietary supplement and does not declare the active T4 and T3 content if your read the manufacturer's FAQs.

Finally, if you start a new candida protocol and NDT at the same time how will you know which is responsible for improvement or which is responsible for adverse effects? Best to see how the new candida protocol works for you before also switching to an alternative thyroid replacement.


That's what I was thinking. Can't change too much at once or I won't know what's working

I am pretty much at the end of my tether now with all this. 18 months later and I am still no better off. I think it's time to make arrangements to leave this f***ing earth because I am not gonna live like this for much longer, I have had enough, tried everything and nothing works.

I hate waking every day suffering from all these symptoms, I can't function properly, it's no life


Perhaps you should see someone about the anxiety while you are trying to sort out the gut and candida issues.


That's where my therapist comes in but the particular gut bacterial overgrowth I have causes most of it and until that has gone I am stuffed. I just can't seem to find the right help in how to deal with it, they all contradict each other


My circulation is bad again because my poor feet have chilblains again and my little finger has a huge one. Plus I am back on the ciggies after quitting for 4.5 months because the added depression and anxiety was too much to bear. I didn't realise packing in would cause that but it's common. Am in a no win situation


It sounds to me as though you need help with the depression and anxiety while you are trying to improve gut and candida. Shame about the ciggies but you can quit again when you are in a better frame of mind.


I have already upped by ad's and taking Diazepam which helps but now I am hooked on that and will have to wean off it IF I can sort the gut issues out. It's just all hopeless and EVERYONE is right, so many have said I am a complex case so I know I am not going to get better. I don't even know if the hrt I am on is suiting me or not


Now isn't the time to think about weaning off Diazepam. Try to take things a day at a time otherwise you will become overwhelmed.


already overwhelmed with it all. I rely on the Diazepam too much to come off it yet but I know it will be another thing I have to tackle in the future. I just wanna take the lot at the moment.

I am also going to try some acupuncture on Thursday. I asked my only friend if he minded driving me, it's only 10 mins away, cus I can't drive if I feel too unwell. He wasn't keen and is in agony with back problems that he won't do anything about. Pfft so much for friends eh. The only one I have and after 18yrs I can't even rely on him now. So completely on my own with all this shit apart from you lovely guys on here.

Have a couple of other friends who said they would visit and havent. No-one cares


If your friend is in agony he's in no condition to drive. If it's only 10 minutes away why not walk or take a cab?


He can drive as he came round to me earlier. It would be a half hr walk and I can't do that because of my agoraphobia. I need someone to drive me because of it or I wouldn't get there at all. Wouldn't feel comfortable with a taxi


I can't seem to sort the gut issues, I keep being told different things and just spending money on stuff that doesn't work. All the nutritionist keep contradicting each other. I am on my third now and I was hoping she was the one but even she is doing it

Try not to worry about the fags, it doesn't sound like that is your worst problem right now. Enjoy them and when the time is right you can quit.


but they make the anxiety worse and yet I still light up. I am my own worst enemy

We all are, you are no different.

I am going to have to admit defeat, there is no help out there for me and I have tried my hardest and just wasted money. All that's left is to sell my house and use the money to go to Switzerland and have myself put down

I understand it may feel that way but you have other options. You haven't wasted money, you need to get through some of the available options to know what suits. It is just a long process. You will get there.

I would suggest avoiding anything too taxing though, like quitting cigs. What is the time frame on the candida thing?


there isn't a timeframe to be honest. Stress makes it worse and I may not get rid of it at all. It's mainly the bad gut bacteria that is causing me more anxiety due to the particular strain.

Maybe set a time limit and/or an 'emotional cost' limit, so if you feel bad enough and if it is taking long enough you may want to have a time when you say enough is enough, I will take a break now and try again later.

Hi there, I've read through this thread and would like to invite you to a resource that is brilliant for addressing gut issues, mental health and more. The highly trained doctor of psychiatry who wrote this also recovered from Post partum Hashimotos by taking a functional medicine approach and then created this program to assist many others:

If you are not sure about taking the program then I highly recommend you get her book 'A Mind Of Your Own' it is an eye-opener and will enable you to get a sense of real hope and possibility of actual recovery if you choose to go with the protocol outlined in the book. I wish you well.

Hi Jefner,

It's known that smoking makes chilblains worse, or may even cause them. Nicotine constricts your blood vessels, and the blood vessels in your extremities, fingers and toes, are already miniscule.

Quit smoking! It's one of the best things you can do for yourself.

I gave up smoking years ago. I used to get chilblains too but they completely stopped when I stopped smoking and have never had them since.

You can get ongoing support by joining your local Stop Smoking Group, run by the NHS. Once a week group meetings for a number of weeks – I think they're designed to help you quit midway during the course.

They also supply free nicotine replacement therapies which you might have to forgo because of the chilblains, but I'm sure you'll get really good support from the professional mentors and your fellow quitters.

Like you say, smoking is contributing to your anxiety not relieving it, and the Candida will also cause anxiety, irritability depression and more.

You must already be doing the main thing – cutting out all sugar, refined carbs, alcohol, certain fruits / juices etc – as the Candida feeds and grows off any sugar you eat.

You need a really good probiotic to help eliminate the Candida and to repopulate / rebalance your gut bacteria. We should have something like 80% good bacteria to 20% bad bacteria, there is a symbiotic relationship between the good and the bad – the good guys also keep the bad guys in check.

If you like, I can send you some Kefir grains so you can start making your own Kefir. Or you can buy it online. Homemade Kefir [fermented milk / yoghurt] is a really effective, potent probiotic. The "grains" are bacteria and yeasts which you have to feed with milk as they feed off the milk sugar i.e. lactose. So it should also be ok if you are lactose intolerant.

Hopefully it'll help to clear the Candida, but people have a daily swig of this whether they have any ongoing gut dysbiosis or not. Cheaper too as you just have to buy milk to feed them.

This information on Candida looks like it's set out quite simply.

You might find a few nuggets of extra information that your nutritionists haven't covered. I see he also gives the same info on videos which might be easier to take in.

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