RLS / BID / Magnesium

[Jka188]

Hi All-

I am a long-time RLS sufferer but this is my first post. I am a generally healthy 38 year old male but I suffer from excruciating RLS every night and am currently controlling the symptoms with 600mg gabapentin plus 600mg horizant. I’ve stayed away from DA due to fear of augmentation. Without medication the RLS symptoms and sleep issues are unbearable. For a variety of reasons I would like to find a better long-term solution then gabapentin.

I had an idea I thought might be interesting and just wanted to throw it out for consideration. It was triggered by my experience with magnesium. I’ve experimented on myself over the past few years with various forms of magnesium (malate, bisglycinate, citrate, etc.) in the hope that this could help treat the symptoms. What I found was although these were effective for boosting serum magnesium levels (i.e. magnesium in the body) they had no neurological effects (likely because my body was not low in magnesium in the first place). However, when I experimented with magnesium l-threonate (2000mg which equates to only 144mg of elemental magnesium, a relatively small amount) the neurological effects were significant. I believe this is because the magnesium / threonic acid chelation crosses the blood brain barrier more efficiently and therefore boosts brain magnesium. Basically magnesium l-threonate functions as a mild NMDA antagonist / glutamate blocker for me. The first time I tried it, during the afternoon, I would almost describe the effect as slightly dissociative. Taken at night, magnesium l-threonate provided some mild RLS relief (I’m guessing for the same reason that other glutamate blockers like gabapentin help). I began taking it nightly, and I found that over time my body seemed to adjust to it, and it no longer provided much relief. When I stopped taking it after approximately 6 months, I suffered from significant rebound anxiety for about a week. I would caution others to be careful in experimenting with magnesium l-threonate as the neurological effects are quite powerful and I’m not sure how fully understood they are.

The takeaway here for me was that while I don’t think magnesium l-threonate is a great long-term treatment for RLS, I do believe that the chelation of a mineral (in this case magnesium) with threonic acid significantly changes the way the body metabolizes it and allows it to more efficiently cross the blood / brain barrier. And so my thought is: would it be possible to do the same with iron (chelate it with threonic acid)? I noticed from googling that this possibility is mentioned in one of the patents for magnesium l-threonate.

[involuntarydancer]

Fascinating post Jka. I lack the scientific prowess to comment on your logical-sounding proposition but will observe with interest the responses of others. Particularly as my GP has today informed me that he can not obtain the necessary product to give me an iron infusion. His research suggests that it is not possible to obtain in Ireland.

[Rangers9 in reply to involuntarydancer]

Hi there i have suffered with RLS for a number of years with all that it brings no sleep xcruciaying pain it was absolute Hell i was at a night out witb my wife & the guy that was the singer on the night got talking he asked me what was wrong with my legs when i said i had RLS he said that his girlfreind suffered whith it as well he said that while on a trip too the USA a doctor put her onto Pramoptexal i asked my doctor if i could get it .Ive now been on it for nearly a year and the diffrence in my legs is tremendouse

[involuntarydancer in reply to Rangers9]

Pramipexole is a brilliant drug for rls, rangers9, but it needs to be carefully managed as it can turn from improving your symptoms to making them much worse in a process known as augmentation.

Keep your iron levels high (get your doctor to do a serum ferritin test and get the actual result - not just that you are normal) and aim to get the figure as close to 100 as you can. There is a link between low iron levels and augmentation

Also if you find the pramipexole is no longer working, do not increase above 0.25mg (no matter what your doctor tells you) better still reduce the dose for a little while and hopefully your body will reset its sensitivity. Find another drug that can supplement the pramipexole for a while (tramadol or pregabalin). This way you will prevent augmentation or at least defer it.

[Rangers9]

Thanks for that imformation i will get my iron levels checked

[DicCarlson]

I love that many of us are in fact experimental guinea pigs in RLS therapies. Magnesium - I've tried every single type and every single type causes a paradoxical reaction - excitability instead of relaxing. Even taking it in the morning. Iron deficiency - intimately associated with RLS in about 15% of suffers (from Johns Hopkins) - can be treated with an Iron Chelate that does cross the blood-brain barrier more readily. It is Ferrous Bisglycinate (Iron cleleated with Glycinate). You can read lots more Science on the leading makers website. This therapy eliminated RLS major symptoms for me - but that pesky Glutamate forces insomnia every night. Many researchers point to high glutamate as a cause of RLS insomnia - but none offer therapies to alleviate it. albionferrochel.com/

[involuntarydancer in reply to DicCarlson]

Great post DicC, I have had a similar problem to yours with magnesium - it seems to excite me and interfere with sleep. It gets so many positive reviews that I am trying it again using magnesium malate which I hadn't tried before - and taking it in the morning. I am also trying to be more aware of the dose. Brilliant that the ferrous bisglycinate works for you. I found that my symptoms improve a lot with iron but not immediately on taking it, more as my serum ferritin rises. I hope you get on top of the glutamate. I read somewhere (but it could even have been one of your posts) that ibuprofen helps with excessive glutamate ...

[DicCarlson in reply to involuntarydancer]

Ibuprofen is indeed a glutamate blocker - and it's almost a test for high glutamate. I've been trying NAC, Vit B6 and Taurine - as a glutamate cure - so far not so much. Mg-Malate is the chief ingredient in Jigsaw Health Mg supplements of which I used to take on a regular basis - pre RLS. Not anymore - totally excitable. The last one I am going to try is Mg-Orotate amazon.com/gp/product/B0001...

[involuntarydancer in reply to DicCarlson]

I can’t remember, have you tried cannabis? I use it as an edible to induce sleep. I find it pretty effective these days but must admit when I was on opioids it wasn’t strong enough to reverse the opioid induced alerting (which I now read may be a side effect of opioids experiences SOLELY by rls sufferers).

[DicCarlson in reply to involuntarydancer]

NEW pot is outrageously potent - mostly it does not help with sleep, but I've probably been smoking the wrong strain. I tried CBD oil - no real help that I can see. I see a neurologist in June and I might suggest a low dose opioid for periodic use. I'm not really suffering, but 3-4 hours sleep doesn't seem good. Not tired At All during the day. No problem falling asleep - I wake up at 2:30-3:00AM and I gradually get more and more awake - another hour or so sleep before 6AM is a bonus.

[involuntarydancer in reply to DicCarlson]

I ended up growing my own so that I had control over the quality and supply. I don't find it all that strong but think I must have become somewhat habituated because my brother tried it and said he was very stoned. It is useful for sleep for me. I always take it as an edible. I make it into a form of cannabutter using coconut oil.