Is there a link between methylcobalamin and bad sleep. Sublingual i don't usually take. I'm Inbetween injection from the gp. Changed my usual Jarrow b12+Folate for this. I wasn't sure my previous Jarrow supplements were working. These new ones have given me energy. Volunteering for cooking now, but i havent slept at all well and now it's clicked that it could be these new brand. Thanks. Dont post very much.
Methylcobalamin and lack off sleep. - Pernicious Anaemi...
Methylcobalamin and lack off sleep.
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Natural1970
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there is this 1996 study which found:
"Sleep time was significantly reduced under MB12 intake. " (Methylcobalamin B12)
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/891...
Appreciate the response. Thank you, Technoid.
I cannot sleep when I take methyl forms of folic acid or B12. Though I do injections, I do not have insomnia on hydroxycobalamin.
Interesting preliminary study.
20 people for 3 weeks is not indicative of anything that I would base any actions on.
For sure. I take methylcobalamin about 3-4 times a day (but in small doses) and I haven't seen any negative effects on sleep.
I agree. I have not found MB12 affect my sleep.
Hi Natural 1970, I usually have Hydroxocobalamine IM, on just one occassion I used Methylcobalamine and I was up all night I just couldn't switch my head off I felt there was a bright light in there. Now only use the Hydroxo.
Thanks, Helliborous. So yesterday i had just the one methylcobalamine. This was a marked improvement on my sleep. So I'm doing one tablet every two days. I am due my hydroxocobalamine three month injection soon so that should settle things dow. To be fair, the Methylcobalamine is great for energy during the day, it's just at night. Thank you for your reply.
I had this reaction. Masses of energy - I loved it. Sadly it wore off after a few weeks.
When I start a new trial I tend to go through a short honeymoon period as my body adjusts. I have over time come to enjoy it for what it is. I do go with if it has a effect than that indicates I may be headed in the right direction.
I am working towards when I make a change it has no effect. Hopefully.
I recently read that you should take methtyl in the morning to avoid sleep disturbances. The first time I injected methocobolamine I had really bad insomnia. I only slept about 2 hours a night for about 10 days. I generally sleep 4 -5 hours a night consistently. It is frustrating. Been that way nearly my entire life. I feel strongly it is my PA.
Before taking B12 I felt so tired I used to have to take naps all the time. And at night I slept like a log. I still sleep well but my need for day time naps is greatly reduced. We obviously all have different reactions to B12D and different reactions to supplementation.
Golly, I’m not sure now about getting methyl. I’m sure my son will be ok but the last thing I want is sleep disturbances. Had insomnia for 23 years and it was hell. The hydroxo I had last week at the clinic also kept me awake on the night of and a week later I’m still not right
I know we all react differently but what’s the least likely to upset sleep? The one I was going to purchase was the powder methyl from biosciences. I like the sound of it, it has no excipients and I’m a bit funny about taking anything with any sort of additive
Please, don't go by my experience. That was a flooky experience and I've always had insomnia. So it doesn't necessarily happen to everybody. I'm doing methyl right now and I don't have insomnia. But I'm also doing a lot less than I did the first time. But everybody is different. And methyl is supposed to be the best form of B12 because you don't have to convert it in your body. So please don't let me scare you off. I have always had insomnia.
Thank you for trying to reassured me
You’re not the only person to say that it can keep you awake but mainly it’s because I had insomnia for 23 years and I don’t want to go back there. At the moment I’m still feeling sleepless from a trial shot of hydroxo at a clinic last week. I wanted to try methyl but couldn’t find a clinic that used it. I’m presuming it’s because it’s the most expensive form
Which brand do you use? I’m looking at the Biosciences powdered one at the moment
Good morning Noel Noel. B12 when it enters your body from natural sources like animal byproducts, it gets converted into methylcobalamin naturally. Therefore when we inject methylcobalamine our bodies don't have to convert it. So sometimes some people have a little difficulty with it. But I think it might be a matter of getting used to it as well. But over two years later I'm still trying to figure this all out myself.
Bioscience is the methylcobalamin that I use. I actually feel like I don't maybe need to do it everyday like I did the other B12. But I'm in the trial basis of this right now trying to figure it out and everybody is different. With hydroxycobalamin and cyanocobalamin I inject every day but with The methyl I'm feeling like maybe I don't want to inject today. I just woke up a half an hour ago, It's 6:40 here in the United States and I feel like I'm going to forgo my injection today. I believe that methylcobalamin stays in your system a little longer because your body may be recognizes it more I'm not exactly sure, but that's what I hear. And according to my instructions I do need less methyl than I do cyano or hydroxy. With hydroxycobalamin I do a 1 ml ampule everyday. With methylcobalamin I do 0.3 to 0.5 ml everyday so half and sometimes less than half of what I was doing with hydroxy. As far as being more expensive it is a little bit but I do think you use less.
You get the methyl from bioscience but you have to get the saline and your syringes someplace else. I get them in Germany
I'm still trying to figure all this out myself. I'm finding out after 2 years of this that everybody is different, that I don't think there is a normal way of being with this. And it is trial and error to find where we need to be with our treatments. It can be overwhelming.
The nice thing is that you have support here. Without everybody here I would have been so lost. I'm still a little lost but nowhere near where I would have been without everybody here. Everybody on here is in the same boat and they just want to help other people. So anything anybody tells you here it's from the bottom of their heart and they are trying to help any way they can because they know how it feels to be on this boat. Unfortunately I don't know if it ever becomes smooth sailing.
You’re so right, this is an amazing forum and I’m learning bit by bit. I’m also learning just how individual we all are, I wish medics would recognise this!
I don’t expect to figure this out overnight. I’m six years into my thyroid journey and still learning something new every day and so I expect it will be similar with this
Why do you have to buy from GB? Is methyl not available in the US?
Some people have a prescription in the US but I don't, so I can't get B12 unless I ship it from Germany. I'm only allowed 1 injection a month per my insurance. I don't even go in and get it. I just treat myself. I am beyond grateful that I can!! I hope that never changes. Scary to think. Also, it seems to be pretty expensive here.
Hi EllaNore!
"Therefore when we inject methylcobalamine our bodies don't have to convert it. "
All forms of B12 are broken down and reconverted when they reach the cell.
First some definitions needed for the quote below:
The "Cytosol" here is the main compartment of cells.
A "ligand" is just any molecule that binds to a specific site on a molecule - the ligands in this case are a methyl group in the case of methylcobalamin and an adenosyl group in the case of adenosylcobalamin.
"All of the B12 forms are reduced to the core cobalamin molecule inside the cytosol and then converted to the 2 active forms of B12—MeCbl and AdCbl—irrespective of the form of B12 ingested. It is important to understand that the conversions to active B12 forms do not employ the methyl or adenosyl ligand from supplemental MeCbl or AdCbl, respectively. The methyl group is derived from other molecules—5-MTHF, SAM-e, or betaine—while the adenosyl group is synthesized inside cells."
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
This is why, although there may be side effects of different forms (methylcobalamin supplies methyl groups which could have other effects), in terms of their usage once they reach the cell, all the B12 forms are broken down first and then rebuilt - they are never used directly even if the type that reaches the cell is one of the "bioactive" forms (Methylcobalamin and Adenosylcobalamin). The first thing that will happen is they will be broken down to the base cobalamin molecule.
and although methylcobalamin is often promoted as the most "natural" form, in a (very old) study on the different types of B12 in foods, it was discovered that:
Adenoxylcobalamin and hydroxocobalamin were the predominant forms.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/820...
Open to correction but Adenoxylcobalamin seems to be an older name for Adenosylcobalamin.
Thanks Technoid, for clearing that up. I think a lot of people misconceive that about methyl. It is marketed in salons and online as the purest form. I have been under that misconception since the beginning, that it didn't need to be converted, so our bodies accepted it better, but some people can't tolerate it. Then why can't we buy it in ampoules? It's all mind boggling. I don't get the big deal about being able to buy it like cyano or hydroxy. Do we need adenosylcobalamin? If so, why aren't we all taking it? If we can't absorb B12 then why take it adenosyl sublingually? Boy, this just opened up a bunch of questions. Sorry. Why don't they just make a mixture of what we actually need and let us inject that? Sheesh. I think I am just going to go back to old faithful hydroxy ampoules. It is just so much easier. LOL 🙄
Thanks for the explanation Technoid. 🤗
Also, sorry, another question. Are we capable of converting it from our injections? Are we actually utilizing what we inject properly? Thanks!
"It is marketed in salons and online as the purest form."
I mean, it is ONE of the natural forms but there are two more (adenosyl and hydroxo). Marketing is the word. I'm not sure what would make methylcobalamin a "purer", form - that seems to be a meaningless marketing buzzword to attract sales.
" Then why can't we buy it in ampoules? "
I haven't made a thorough search but I believe it is possible to get injectable methylcobalamin from some sources, but it may not be cheap. It seems be a more difficult form to keep stable and (my understanding) is that it quickly degrades to hydroxocobalamin when exposed to UV light or heat.
In which case, the money and effort spent to get methylcobalamin instead of hydroxo is probably wasted. So it might be just a matter of practicality- why stock something that requires special measures to keep it in its particular form when hydroxo or cyanocobalamin (which is the most stable form) will do "the same" thing.
And yes I put "the same" in quotes because people may react better to different forms, certain genetic variants may affect the metabolism from one form to another, the absorption/retention times may also vary.
"Do we need adenosylcobalamin?"
You don't need to inject it but you sure need the body to be able to make it when cobalamin enters the cell. Otherwise the body can't use it in the essential reaction that feeds the krebs cycle (the power source of cells).
Sky-High MMA would be a good sign something is wrong with adenosylcobalamin although other conditions which could cause high MMA do also need to be ruled out.
It might exist but I've not come across injectable adenosylcobalamin.
"If we can't absorb B12 then why take it adenosyl sublingually?"
Well, in theory even with PA, you can supposedly absorb 1% of any oral B12 dose via passive absorption. But as is often mentioned, although this works for some (and there are some interesting techniques with taking high dose B12 throughout the day), many do not find a way to make oral B12 work for them enough to deal with symptoms. The reasons for this are not really understood. Liver Mobilisation and bile recovery of B12 seems to be compromised in PA but there are likely other undiscovered reasons as this does not fully explain some injection frequencies, so it seems like it cannot be the whole picture.
The only thing I'm confident of there is that no-one has the answers as to why, although perhaps PASOC or B12 institute funded research will help progress towards this answer, otherwise doctors will continue to believe an injection every 3 months is adequate based on erm.... ???? (if anyone knows do tell....)
"Why don't they just make a mixture of what we actually need and let us inject that? "
Even if they mixed a concoction of all the natural forms, none of the forms would be directly used IN THAT FORM. Rather they would get broken down to base cobalamin and rebuilt. So I think it would be possible to do it in theory, but the benefit would be questionable.
I will admit to a bit of hypocrisy here as I do take a B12 supplement that contains all three natural forms , (or sometimes just methyl/adenosyl). What can I say - I guess I'm an irrational creature 😅
"Are we capable of converting it from our injections? "
If you werent converting cobalamin to either active form correctly, you would continue to have very high homocysteine and MMA. Interestingly, I know some DID have high MMA for a long time which seems to speak to possibly some functional B12 conversion, uptake or processing defect.
If you've been having somewhat frequent blood tests after treatment, if you have had continued raised MMA and Homocysteine despite intensive B12 treatment, I would HOPE a doctor would have mentioned it to you by now.....😅
Thank you very much, Technoid, for researching those questions for me. At first I thought maybe they were just stupid questions but by your answers it really did help me to ask them. Your answers were very explanatory and really cleared some stuff up for me. I hope that my questions and your answers help somebody else as well. I really appreciate the time you put into researching and typing it all out for me. I'm saving this post. I want to read this a few times. 🙏😌
Thank you very much!!!
Also, You confirmed for me that I'm going to stick to hydroxy or cyano whichever is available rather than the methyl. It's a huge hassle for me to get It's a huge hassle to buy everything separately the sailing the syringes and the methyl. And I'm not sure I can tell a significant enough difference. And also if it will degrade to hydroxycobalamin with a little bit of light why should I go through all this trouble? So thank you because you have answered a question I've had rolling around in my head for about a year now. I think I'll stick with hydroxy.
>>All forms of B12 are broken down and reconverted when they reach the cell.
Each type of cell has a different process and what is studied and therefore known is how each type of cell processes Cobalamin in a body that processes cobalamin normally. A lot is known which is a long way from understanding.
The current methodology for trying to predict why some bodies process Cobalamin differently based on what is known about bodies that process Cobalamin at least adequately. Most effectively is not even a consideration.
Conjecture of what might happen with the different types of cells is often seen as science when it is written by scientists and has not reached the level of repeatable results in the body of the person whose cells are affected by the way their cells process cobalamin.
How each type of cell processes cobalamin in a body may at some time replace "we are all different"
This is not a condemnation rather I find it helpful to try and understand what methods are being used as that leads to what results might be discovered and what would not be.
I used bio science and made an error in my calculations in not understanding that it was a different concentration than other products I had used. It was 4mg/ml of B12 and not 1mg/ml.
It was not an issue other than my calculations of how much B12 I was taking was incorrect.
I made a similar error with a product that was only 1 ml in in 30 ml.
So it didn’t make you a spectacularly whizzy wizard that day?!!
: )
I take my B Complex (Thorne Basic B) in the morning. Also do my SI in the morning just in case 🌱
Hey Natural1970,
My experience with methylcobalamin is that it is the most effective form for me to take as long as I also take adenosylcobalamin SL.
As it is more effective I experience 'reversing' out and one of the symptoms was sleep disturbance.
I go with if a supplement has an immediate effect than that indicates it is positive for my body although there may be a immediate negative. Sometimes I reduce for a while and then increase.
If this was all easy someone would have the answers. Correct answers for the patient. No one does.
Some people are affected adversely by methylcobalamin, some are not.
I am super sensitive to it. First time I got a methylcobalamin shot I did not sleep at all. Not one minute. (Sleep like a baby on cyanocobalamin shots)
I feel very wired on it, even in the smallest amounts. Once I purchased a hydroxycobalamin spray and felt cuckoo for cocoa pops. Turned the bottle over and voila it had methylcobalamin in it.
I can always tell when my sister has been supplementing with methylcobalamin sublinguals between shots of cyanocobalamin. She seems irritated and less patient.
I wanted to try MB12 for neuropathy, in between hydroxo shots, and started with methyl tablets. I was already wired and in overdrive mode and they seemed to make this worse, so I quickly stopped.
Hi
I’ve recently started taking Methylcobalamin injections twice per week as I do Cyano the remainder and the pharmacist warned me… Usually it’s a 1 ml/1000 mcg dose but because it’s so strong she recommended half of that. I even have to do a bit less than that or else I’m kinda like anxious and jittery and don’t get much sleep. I would say I do around 400 mcg even in the evening and I’m fine with that. But everyone is different.
Glad your pharmacy warned you. I was taking 2000mcg dose. No wonder i couldn't sleep. All these replies to my post is an eye opener alright. Thank you for your reply.
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