B12 - autism

Just reading some info that being b12 deficient causes autistim? Or cdd is caused by b12 deficiency. Is this true.?

[Gambit62 Administrator]

As far as I am aware there has been speculation about involvement of B12 deficiency, or issues around processing of B12 in specific process being involved in the development of autistic spectrum disorders but if it is then it is just one of a large number possible factors. The research to date hasn't shown up anything conclusive.

[doityourself]

What's your source Lizblow? I've not heard this from any credible source I know of but I have heard a lot of 'theories' that have proved hollow over the years.

[deniseinmilden]

There have been several people, myself included, who report a degree of autistic type symptoms when we are deficient but these are largely reversible with enough B12.

There has been a post and some discussion around it by

Sleepybunny

[deniseinmilden in reply to deniseinmilden]

You can go to her profile by clicking on her name link above and looking through her interesting posts.

[Leils]

Not possible to say for sure.

There are associations between low B12 and autism symptoms

There is also a school of thought that extra folic acid without B12 in pregnancy is causing some of the increase (see Sally Pacholok)

I think other factors may be involved, environmental, genetic as well

[Nackapan]

I've read a few things too. The possible link when pregnant if you are b12 deficient.The inability to cope in busy environments Nervous system in overdrive.

Sensitivity to noises

Taking In too much detail in so feel irritated shaky wanting stillness and quiet

A page of words too busy causing distress and pains in your head.

Feeling claustrophobic

Not being able to multitask

I had/have all of the above.

I think its because your nervous and autonomic systems are affected.

At one stage I was looking at big earmuffs to cut out sound. Thet were marketed fit autistic children.

Also I tried going yo Morrisons which had an hour of dimmed lighting snd no music.

That although a good idea and used by alot by people autistic young children

J found worse! As evety other aile was lit so the contrast more difficult fir me.

Ivr never before colated these are autistic traits.

So many things overlap .

I have not a deep understanding of autism . I do know how varied in severity the symptoms are from person to person.

I do however believe its grossly underestimated what damage a b12 deficiency can do.

Definitely the root cause of alot of one of my daughters health problems.

They started very young and a b12 test not done until the age of 23

It's got to change as its becoming more common with the earth changing

[fbirder]

If you search enough almost everything causes autism. From Vitamin E, through pollen, to TV.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/fu...

link.springer.com/article/1...

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

nber.org/papers/w12632

tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10....

B12d doesn't.

Actually, somebody saying that 'X' is a cause of autism, or that 'X' can 'cure' autism, is a good sign that the person saying it is desperate to find something to say about 'X'. I can prove that autism is caused by the increased consumption of organic food.

Autism and Organic Food graph

[doityourself in reply to fbirder]

Hi Fbirder, I agree with you completely. I've worked in the diagnostic process of children with autism for many years and have never come across any credible source of research that proves or even strongly suggests a link.

[fbirder in reply to doityourself]

A really good friend is an Aspie (her description) and is brighter than me. She's looked into it a lot and decided there is no obvious cause. I trust her.

[fbirder in reply to fbirder]

Just found out that some people think that too much B12 can cause autism. sciencenorway.no/autism-vit...

That's a good sign of nonsense - when one lot claims that 'X' causes syndrome 'Z' while another lot claims that 'X' cures syndrome 'Z' you can be pretty sure that both are talking cobblers.

The best example is the Daily Mail and its regular claims that 'X' causes cancer, and 'X' cures cancer - kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/...

[Hidden in reply to fbirder]

Didn’t someone suggest it was the MMR vaccine? Or am I thinking of something else.

If the GP’s get wind of this we can all kiss goodbye to our three monthly shots. Wait till levels really drop.

As you say fbirder cobblers.

[fbirder in reply to Hidden]

Yes, you are correct. Andrew Wakefield ran a study to see if the MMR jab caused autism, hoping to make millions by selling tests to look for the condition autistic enterocolitis. When the study showed no connection at all he made up the data. The paper got published in The Lancet.

It didn't' take long before real doctors started yelling 'Foul'. And not long after that the other authors of the paper (who had taken Wakefield's data on trust) withdrew their names. The Lancet retracted the paper and Wakefield was struck off.

Millions of children have taken part in hundreds of studies to see if there was any correlation. There was not.

Wakefield did make his millions though. He sells books and goes on tour in the USA where there enough pro-plague nutters to believe his bullstuff.

[Sleepybunny]

Hi,

I don't think there is any conclusive proof that B12 deficiency causes autism .

Some articles that mention B12 deficiency and autism

journals.plos.org/plosone/a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/232...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

There is a chapter in Sally Pacholok's book "Could It Be B12" about B12 deficiency and autism.

[shortytlc]

Presuming possibility of a link, when you look at both, b12 causes neurological problems, autism is neurological so maybe for some misdiagnosis?

[Cherylclaire Forum Support]

All of my sisters' children have autism. This is a family rife with autoimmune conditions. I don't believe that being B12 deficient causes autism -although certainly some of the symptoms we experience are familiar to those with autistic spectrum disorders- especially the sensory overloading such as Nackapan has described.

I do strongly believe there is a link.

It was this link really that I was hoping would be revealed when my DNA was looked at by an Adult Inherited Metabolic Diseases consultant. A slim hope perhaps, and a two-year wait. The consultant even said that the answers may help the next generation of my family more than me (I'm 63 now).

No answers unfortunately -for me or family. Beside one cousin, no-one but me in the family has B12 deficiency and I don't have any children. Psoriasis, vitiligo, Grave's disease and rheumatoid arthritis more commonly the problems faced.

I sent my copy of the Sally Pacholok book to one of my sisters because of the autism chapter, so this book might be worth having a look at. Do you have any specific concerns ?

[Sleepybunny]

Hi again,

An article by Sally Pacholok that mentions B12 deficiency and autism.

pharmacytimes.com/view/pedi...

Article below mentions that high levels of B12 have been found in people with autism.

sciencenorway.no/autism-vit...

Article about screening of B12 levels in ASD children

academic.oup.com/qjmed/arti...

Article about low levels of B vitamins (including B12) potentially causing methylation issues in ASD children

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/311...

[Ctadds1 in reply to Sleepybunny]

Thank you for the resources. All this has recently become very concerning to me. I am pregnant and get weekly injections. I am so worried that too much is going to harm my baby but then on the flip side so worried not enough will hurt my baby Very hard to know what to do

[Sleepybunny in reply to Ctadds1]

Have you talked to your doctor about your concerns?

[Ctadds1 in reply to Sleepybunny]

Yes I have, she told me she was not very knowledgeable about B12 but from what she understood it was safe in pregnancy. That’s all she said

[JupitersMuse in reply to Ctadds1]

I am autistic and also currently sufferong from an acute B12 deficincy caused by nitrous. I've read the studies on autism being caused by high levels of b12 in mothers and it makes sense to me. There's a stage in brain development where neurons grow super close together and with the next step being synaptic pruning. Autistic brains go through less pruning so there are more but also weaker neurons & synapses. So if B12 is high, it would make sense to me that the neurons that would be pruned in a neurotypical brain are too strong and thus are not pruned in this stage.

However, on the flip side, not having enough B12 can cause neuronal tube defects and long term nervous system issues.

I'd much rather be autistic than neuronally defected. It's not so bad. It really only feels like a "disability" when I'm around the wrong people. Low levels of B12 mean I can't function in life. I feel more disabled now than I ever have. Being Autistic is quite functional, just in a totally different way than what neurotypicals define as functional.

[waveylines]

One of the many symptoms of PA is the mental effect on the brain which is largely reversible with b12 injections........though I have to say my memory has never fully recovered. Autism is something else and Ive not read anything to say that b12 deficiency definately causes Autism. The cause of Autism as per my understanding is still really unknown though plenty of theories.......Mental effects of B12 deficiency on myself were elements of paranoid type thinking, slow processing, short term memory problems and neurological problems. B12 deficiency affects mutiple systems in the body -see Dr Chandrys book- so it makes sense that it will also affect the brain causing symptoms. It doesnt mean to say its Autism per say but I suppose you could have some of the symptoms that are also associated with Autism depending on how you are affected. Autism is a permenant condition and doesnt go away. B12 deficiency in young children can cause significant brain damage and I think this is what Sally P was referring too though she does talk about Autism in children I dont think it has been proven as a cause. I think a lot more research is needed in this area.

[Bonjourtristesse in reply to waveylines]

Yes, what if b12 deficiency looks like autism but isn't?

[waveylines in reply to Bonjourtristesse]

Surely if B12 deficiency occurring in adulthood has caused some mental effects on the brain a lot of these will be addressed by the deficiency being addressed? I am not a medic but to say that B12 deficiency causes Autism in adulthood is a big leap and Im not aware of any proven body of medical research to this affect.

It is however true that if severe B12 deficiency occurs in adulthood is left unaddressed for a very long period of time that it does cause damage to the body that may never be totally recovered. Eg numbness in feet etc, poor memory, motor control but this is very different to Autism.

Having untreated severe b12 deficiency in infanthood for a long period of time when the brain Is developing may indeed cause long term damage. Whether a feature of the damage would be diagnosed as Autism would need to be assessed on an individual basis by a specialist team. Over the years in my job I have worked with a large number of children diagnosed on the Autistic spectrum and none of them had been found to have severe b12 deficiency.

[Bonjourtristesse in reply to waveylines]

Just to be clear, I wasn’t implying the two were the same. I meant that they are two separate things and one could look like the other.

I have watched Sally Pacholok’s documentary and there are children in there who were massively deficient and didn’t recover. I think they were ‘misdiagnosed’ as autistic.

[fbirder]

There is a really, really good argument against autism being caused by a B12 deficiency. Something the book writers claiming such a link need to explain -

1. Autism is most commonly diagnosed when young.

2. B12 deficiencies most commonly appear when old.

Those two facts can explain why autism can cause a B12 deficiency. They can't explain why a B12 deficiency can cause autism.

[27Protons in reply to fbirder]

Don't forget B12 deficiency can be misdiagnosis as autism b12deficiency.info/misdiagn...

so I personally think before a diagnosis for any illness/health condition with no definite test based upon symptom you should be tested for all easily testable nutritional deficiencies & infectious diseases especially if they have no obvious symptoms e.g how many people with reactive arthritis have being tested for Chlamydia trachomatis.

Then the fact we don't test people being sectioned for vitamin B12 deficiency is scandalous.

Then as someone with autism I have another thought - it appears anecdotally speaking that digestive problems tend to be more common (coeliac.org.uk/information-... - interesting there is a link in Down’s syndrome) but there is a clear reluctance to investigate them due to the way the medical community reacted to bloody Wakefield on top of stupid guidance like this

nice.org.uk/donotdo/do-not-...

that has make investigating thing like suspecting there child may have Coeliac disease borderline quackary & child abuse. Then God help the parents if that notice there child has vitamin B12 deficiency & forced to self inject.

Could it be people with autism are ending up with permanent damage from untreated coeliac disease that is causing vitamin B12 deficiency?

[Scotlad76]

Its an interesting area but to date there's no credible evidence that b12 deficiency causes or has anything to do with autism.

[fbirder]

Yes. A friend of mine had a son who was on the spectrum. He refused to eat anything but baked beans on toast.

[DRunnerchick]

As someone who has family members who are not “neuro typical”/ on the autism spectrum, we are currently participating in the biggest Autism research study to date: the Spark Study. You can find out more about it here:

sparkforautism.org/portal/p...

We have been part of it for about 5 years and have participated in many arms of the study. There have been many genetic and epigenetic discoveries but no connections to B12 deficiency that I am aware of. Poke around at the site or sigh up for the newsletter/&/or study if you are qualified.

Just thought I’d throw in my 2cents worth.

D🏃🏽‍♀️

[Lizhay1234]

B12 levels can be depleted by stress and autistic people can be more stressed than the general population. This is one theory.

[Bonjourtristesse]

I was reading some stuff about post viral nerve issues today (either vaccine or natural) and it is a fairly common problem it seems.

So I wonder whether people with pre existing low b12 who have vaccines or indeed infections are being affected. Covid for example seems to affect the nerves (as do any virus apparently) and people with long covid are effectively reporting the same symptoms as b12 deficiency. Since b12 is rarely taken seriously I am not sure that b12 injections will ever be considered as treatment for long covid.

This paper is about nerve issues after vaccines (which are rare it must be pointed out)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2...

This paper is called 'it takes nerves to fight infections'. What if already 'underfunded' nerves cannot do this and cannot deal with an immune response?

journals.biologists.com/dmm...

A lot of the post vaccination nerve (neurological) issues reported in the above paper overlap with b12 deficiency. Given the ridiculously high barrier for being taken seriously with b12 issue (including test results) perhaps the immune response was the last straw.

I am not medically trained, just bored of being told I am fine when I am not.

[27Protons in reply to Bonjourtristesse]

I'm bored of being told I am fine when I am not too. I was wondering this as well as I had to increase the frequency of my B12 injections (I'm self injecting) after I had what was almost certainly (couldn't get a test unless you were hospitalised at that point) was COVID-19 in March 2020.

It have never got why we don't routinely screen the population on say a yearly basis for easily testable infectious diseases (that can have no obvious symptoms & are best treated early ) and nutritional deficiencies on say a yearly basis - not even those with an illness of unknown cause (ME & long COVID being a good example) or pregnant women where we carelessly hand out thing like iron supplements without even testing for iron deficiency or existing overload + monitoring for deficiencies this could cause like zinc). My favourite example being those ignorant GPs who stop B12 injections for a pregnant women in case it "harmful to the baby" while recommending folate supplements (who care that B12 is needed for the same reason.)

Also nutritional deficiencies may be the reason many side effects occur to many drug in the 1st place - an intriguing example of this is nutritionally deficiency pregnant women (I would be interesting to see the social-economic situation here) & thalidomide resulting in birth defects.

[Ctadds1 in reply to 27Protons]

I am interested by your post. I too believe I had Covid in March 2020 before Covid was a huge thing. Honestly that’s when they found out I was also b12 deficient. I think I’m recovering from a long deficiency but I think the Covid pushed my body over the edge. How often do you inject? What symptoms of Covid do you continue to have? Thanks