The pointlessness of debating CT/NRT/Drugs

There have always been arguments about which works best CT/NRT/Champix/Zyban.

The daft thing is that, that misses the point. The challenge facing people quitting is not how they stopped but how they will make sure they never start again.

The answer which has been shown time and time again in the years I have been a member here has been, understanding the enemy, letting go of the concept that smoking is a reward and not seeing living without smoking as depriving yourself.

If you can get your mind right the rest will follow, the old mantra Read, read, read is the one that has worked for many many people.

Anyone that wants to obsess with the methods used in the 1st 3 months of a quit hasn't yet understood the task at hand and the ultimate goal.

Possibly the most important thing to understand that if you try to live as a person that wants to smoke but isn't then life is going to be pretty poor.

45 Replies

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  • Wise words NicFirth, thanks

  • I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree.

  • Possibly the most important thing to understand that if you try to live as a person that wants to smoke but isn't then life is going to be pretty poor.

    Spot on. ;)

    It's nice to see that some of the 2008 quitters are still smokeless. :D:D:D

    Josie XXX

  • There have always been arguments about which works best CT/NRT/Champix/Zyban.

    The daft thing is that, that misses the point. The challenge facing people quitting is not how they stopped but how they will make sure they never start again...

    Undeniably true Nick.

    You know that, I know that and plenty more here and elsewhere know that. Understanding why we smoke is the best ammunition we can have for the longer fight against tobacco.

    Unfortunately the raft of newbies, keen to adopt the preferred method, will continue to hammer on the door of NSD asking the same question and until someone, who's not simply out to line their own pockets, gives clear, beneficial and above all, truthful advice as to the quitting process then it will continue to occur on a daily / weekly / monthly basis.

    If the mainstream media could get across the simple message that all prescription smoking cessation aids are 'better than nothing' when introduced but rapidly regress to 'only as effective as nothing' and the best thing to use to help you quit is 'whatever works for you,' then I'm positive we would see a substantial increase in success rates.

    Sadly the exposure to 'stopping smoking' that we get in the media is either misleading NRT adverts or misleading NHS adverts. I have never seen anything else portrayed.

    I don't think anyone has a budget to do anything in opposition so it leaves the novice quitter initially with the problem of trying to forget everything they thought they knew about smoking and then learning how to not smoke.

    It's nothing short of scandalous!

    As always, answers on a postcard....

    Sometimes we really need that 'banging head against wall' smilie... ;)

  • Something like this

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  • Totally agreee... and I'm still slightly shocked that the Allan Carr method isn't even mentioned by the NHS... I think he's helped a lot of people get into the 'not smoking does NOT equal depriving myself of a pleasure' state of mind.

    But hey, I suppose the message is getting out there at least... I'm sure we all remember ads for cigs on the telly, billboards, cinema, sports (?!!?) and I suppose the government's come a long way since then. I suppose it's just like you say tho Nic, they have to line their pockets with something...

  • I think thats where this forum comes in!

    It sort of attempts to lead you and point you in the direction of self awareness re the smoking. Some get it straight away, some take longer and I suspect that some walk away never getting it.

    In addition to the 'getting it' though, I also believe that I have my own sort of 'AA' group. Here, others know how I feel, counsel me on days I need it and we focus on supporting each other and treating each other respectfully.

    Each time we support others we reinforce our own quit.

    And so the circle goes on.

    :D

  • I deleted this part of my post Kari, as I wondered if it was too personal for this particular thread but I think its not so i have written it again here:

    Karri, I have every faith in you quitting and staying quit. XX:)

  • I too agree with the Nic's comments and Austin's too. But then it's this constant repitition of stating the same thing so that newbies can take note of the excellent advice available.

    Being a member since January 2008, 6 months longer than my user Id join date suggests, there has been no real evolution of the workings of this Forum save the introduction of annonymous moderation. And many of us are aware of the limitations of that restriction, including past and present moderators. Why can't the Forum allow the facitily of having stickies for salient information...information that we have practical experience of and know that works. Instead we get the commandments, 'thou shan't do', 'thou shan't discuss', 'thou shan't pass go and collect Duncan Bannatyne's mythical cheque'.

    It's as if NSD are embarrassed about the success of the majority of members even though we have chanced upon a wholly inclusive method of high and prolonged success in regards to quitting smoking. One that embraces all forms of starter quit in an inclusive style. A charity with such success in its midst should be singing praises and bringing this to attention of the NHS not impeding this highly effective forum.

  • Well said Cav.

    Stickies would be very useful indeed. Although in the meantime we are grateful to oldies for hunting stuff down that needs bumping, and reposting good advice over and over :)

    A link from the no smoking day homepage would be good too. It's just pure chance that people find this great forum at all. WHY is it not even mentioned on there? Astonishing.

    H x

  • I don't get that either Hels. When I joined, the NSD website link to the forum was right there on the top line. Somewhere down the line it went. I agree, its harder to find this forum now.

  • I don't get that either Hels. When I joined, the NSD website link to the forum was right there on the top line. Somewhere down the line it went. I agree, its harder to find this forum now.

    They used to, Fi. But it's been removed....they is embarrassed about you :p

  • They used to, Fi. But it's been removed....they is embarrassed about you :p

    Ha! It went during a time I stopped coming on here. Do you think they was trying to tell me something! Anyway. Stop derailing the non debating debating thread. ;)

  • Anyway. Stop derailing the non debating debating thread. ;)

    :eek:

    If you weren't down and down more and then across right a bit I'd take my hand off yer face so quickly :p

    Others - READ, READ, READ - that's the answer *Cav on track*

  • lol, love the smiley Austin.

    Maybe hiding the forum is so that it isn't available to so many people...? I know I've seen forums for certain things that just have too many members... imagine an AA meeting with 200+ people... I'm not sure how close you could get to others and how seriously you would take their advice.

    It's probably sounds a little selfish and I don't mean it at all in the way that I want to keep the knowledge and the good 'olides' posts to myself but maybe this forum doesn't need more advertising seeing as you can just find it on google...?

    I don't know... yes Cav, agreed, on track now, read read and read :)

  • It's as if NSD are embarrassed about the success of the majority of members even though we have chanced upon a wholly inclusive method of high and prolonged success in regards to quitting smoking. One that embraces all forms of starter quit in an inclusive style. A charity with such success in its midst should be singing praises and bringing this to attention of the NHS not impeding this highly effective forum.

    Its all about funding though isn't it, March 9th (this year) is the thing that the charity is there to do, this forum is just an add on.

    They have to secure funding to run the campaign and generally the people who front up the money will also have a vested interest. That how the world turns.

  • I don't get that either Hels. When I joined, the NSD website link to the forum was right there on the top line. Somewhere down the line it went. I agree, its harder to find this forum now.

    In fairness even though NSD don't have a link the wequit.co.uk does. It appears to be a sister / mirror site to NSD but is unfortunately tainted with the pharmaceutical presence from the very first line.

    He who pays the piper calls the tune etc.

    As I've said in many earlier posts, don't be mislead into assuming that these people want you to stop smoking!

    Maybe the fabulous Mr Bannatyne will buy us some lovely unbiased bandwidth if we ask him nicely?

    racepaint.f9.co.uk/stress.gif

  • Its all about funding though isn't it, March 9th (this year) is the thing that the charity is there to do, this forum is just an add on.

    They have to secure funding to run the campaign and generally the people who front up the money will also have a vested interest. That how the world turns.

    Of course it is all about the funding and NSD has to secure that from the Govt and to a lesser extent, voluntary sector organisations. But the Govt is also seeking to reduce deaths caused by tobacco usage and therefore NSD becomes a Strategic Partner of the Govt. They (NSD) don't just get funding...they'll have to submit a proposal of their activities building in targets and key outcomes they wish to achieve in the funding period. That proposal will include all facets of the NSD's activities: office costs, equipment, staffing, salaries, the key campaign - National No Smoking Day, conducting initiatives in key areas, working with their partners, offering secretariate functions, professional advice, buying questions to be inserted into various social marketing polls that are carried out over the year and around Britain....and also this Forum, the bandwidth and the 'geek' (sorry, forgotten his name) to tinker and keep it running.

    Ultimately NSD should be working to do themselves out of a job...by being successful. And in fact that's part of their Vision which states, 'To reduce tobacco related illness and death' and their Mission, '...highlighting the effective help that is available.'

    It's as if NSD are embarrassed about the success of the majority of members even though we have chanced upon a wholly inclusive method of high and prolonged success in regards to quitting smoking. One that embraces all forms of starter quit in an inclusive style. A charity with such success in its midst should be singing praises and bringing this to attention of the NHS not impeding this highly effective forum.

    It would wholly niave to assume that National No Smoking Day is solely what the charity is there to do. Likewise tunes and pipers are not really relevant. The charity that is No Smoking Day do have coherent broad objectives and I may be accused of niavety too but why can't NSD make more of our successes?

  • If everyone gave up on NSD then I can see the relevance to their charity, but that isn't a common factor on this site.

    I don't think anyone is claiming 100% success rate. But there is a level of success from using Fora*, the information contained, the support available via it's membership.

    *there are other sites, one of which is a breakaway from this one.

    How would you like to see them do that though?

    For a start stickies keeping the excellent advice to the fore instead of the reliance on oldies digging treasures out and reposting constantly....or newbies coming across by chance. And then that info would need to adequately edited to tease out the nuggets of excellent advice.

    Secondly, stop anonymous moderation. It's been proven time and time again that this is a completely ridiculous manner to moderate this site. So much more could be achieved with declared moderation.

    Thirdly, Super Moderator taking a more active part and bringing to the Forum various ongoing research. Requesting participation from ongoing membership - new and old. Keeping a statistical evidence-base of those that are reaching 1 year quit and the method that they used to get there.

    This is just off the top of my head and I'm sure I and others could come up with a lot more suggestions. But it's a pointless exercise unless NSD came on board and gave more credence to the Forum.

  • I don't think anyone is claiming 100% success rate. But there is a level of success from using Fora*, the information contained, the support available via it's membership.

    *there are other sites, one of which is a breakaway from this one.

    For a start stickies keeping the excellent advice to the fore instead of the reliance on oldies digging treasures out and reposting constantly....or newbies coming across by chance. And then that info would need to adequately edited to tease out the nuggets of excellent advice.

    Secondly, stop anonymous moderation. It's been proven time and time again that this is a completely ridiculous manner to moderate this site. So much more could be achieved with declared moderation.

    Thirdly, Super Moderator taking a more active part and bringing to the Forum various ongoing research. Requesting participation from ongoing membership - new and old. Keeping a statistical evidence-base of those that are reaching 1 year quit and the method that they used to get there.

    This is just off the top of my head and I'm sure I and others could come up with a lot more suggestions. But it's a pointless exercise unless NSD came on board and gave more credence to the Forum.

    You make very valid points here Cav, all of which I agree with except for the anonymous moderation. It is completely proper that the forum moderators are completely anonymous, especially if they are quitters themselves.

    Given the basis of support given on this site is not only information based but also on the friendships formed here, why should moderators be disadvantaged just because they do the horrid job of keeping this place respectable and free from undisireables. There is not a single arguement that can be made, and will hold up, to support this. It would only serve to relieve curiosty.

  • You make very valid points here Cav, all of which I agree with except for the anonymous moderation. It is completely proper that the forum moderators are completely anonymous, especially if they are quitters themselves.

    Given the basis of support given on this site is not only information based but also on the friendships formed here, why should moderators be disadvantaged just because they do the horrid job of keeping this place respectable and free from undisireables. There is not a single arguement that can be made, and will hold up, to support this. It would only serve to relieve curiosty.

    Well, I'm just gonna have to disagree with you on the point of anonymous moderators.

    *Fastest 15mins I know of ;)

  • Stickies is a great idea in theory but the reality is people don't read them or refer to them.

    How bizarre, it's one of the first things I go to on a new forum because invariably it's the reason I joined.

    If the stickies don't help I then have to do a search.

    Knowledge bases are fabulous tools.

    Of course if people didn't read them or refer to them then they wouldn't be so prevalent on other forums! (fora)

    When our mantra is read! read! learn! educate! and understand! it's something of a joke that our library involves hearsay, a lucky search, an accidental trawl or a good memory to find the material.

    New members are usually faced with a page of recent discussions and don't dig deeper.

    Why do you think we have a 6 monthly Allen Carr thread?

    We could simply have an AC sticky!

    Anonymity is the only way a forum can be moderated efficiently.

    Every forum I am currently a member of has both stickies and known mods.

    I cannot recall a forum, other than this one, that has anonymous mods.

    Of course we haven't got anonymous mods anyway, we've just got a membership that consists of those that know and those that don't know who the mods are. In itself a somewhat weird result.

  • My 2 penneth

    I am not normally a forum user. I don't like them and find them Clique-like and off putting.

    That is in part due to the mods identity being known and in part due to the way in which the forums are run.

    I care not a jot for any money NSD are making or who they may or may not be in cahoots with. I couldn't give a fig who the mods are, they do a good job and that's all I care about. I love this site, it is without doubt helping me quit and it is the FIRST forum I've ever stuck with and cared about.

    As to stickies. A good idea but I simply bookmark any links or make a mental note of any good advice.

    What I especially like is things l;ike this - the swapping of thoughts and ideas! :)

  • Well, I'm just gonna have to disagree with you on the point of anonymous moderators.

    *Fastest 15mins I know of ;)

    Originally Posted by Cavalier

    Well, I'm just gonna have to disagree with you on the point of anonymous moderators. Because we get to know each other by how we write and the styles we use the idle participator can generally work out who the moderator is. On that basis I can wholly state that the original Mod1 I and many others had huge respect for in his normal User ID, Mod3 was generally fair and actually did a huge amount of work on behalf of both NSD and members, the current Mod2 is on my friends list in her normal guise.

    Okay then lets work on how anonymity could be detrimental. If the Forum was broken down to various factions and a member became a mod then let their buddies know he/she was. They could then start a witch hunt a target various members.

    How about if a mod actually groomed various members...female members?

    Okay, lets go back to more prosaic examples and a mod had pity for one member who was a known troublemaker and turns a blind eye. What about a mod in his/her normal user ID provokes another member and then achieving that slips into mod guise and bans the person.

    But then lets look at it from the mods viewpoint...the stress of dealing with particularly difficult issues jeopordises their quit but they have to remain anonymous. Are they a member who has been quit a year and strong in their quit, maybe only 3 months and going through the terrible 3s?

    Anonymous moderation is unfair to the users and in some cases the moderators.

    This is why your arguement will never hold up. I have broken your original statement into bite sized chunks just so I can talk through each point seperately.

    In the case of a mod telling buddies who they were: this would only make a difference if there were only 1 mod and for that to make a jot of difference the super mod would have to be in cahoots which would just not happen.

    The grooming issue could still happen even if the mods were named, if someone is a bad person they will be bad weather they have a name or not. If a forum member feels uncomfortable with a mod they can approach the super mod.

    And the final provoking point again holds no water as you would still need there to be only 1 mod and the super mod would again have to be in cahoots for this to happen.

    The only thing I would say is that the mods should not post anything other than forum related business under the guise of mod. Anything else should be posted under their usual username.

  • My 2 penneth

    I am not normally a forum user. I don't like them and find them Clique-like and off putting.

    That is in part due to the mods identity being known and in part due to the way in which the forums are run.

    I care not a jot for any money NSD are making or who they may or may not be in cahoots with. I couldn't give a fig who the mods are, they do a good job and that's all I care about. I love this site, it is without doubt helping me quit and it is the FIRST forum I've ever stuck with and cared about.

    As to stickies. A good idea but I simply bookmark any links or make a mental note of any good advice.

    What I especially like is things l;ike this - the swapping of thoughts and ideas! :)

    And your opinion is respected :)

    Just so happens that this site used to be much more cliquey and a number of us have stayed on not just to support new members and pass on the key messages but also to help foster an inclusive atmosphere to the Forum.

    Not for one minute do we think this is our Forum...just a place that we can come on and offer help, have a laugh and ensure that it goes on being a place of excellence. We know that our desires for change are limited and generally fall on deaf ears but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek change for the better.

    There is history to this site and those ugly sores were nearly exposed recently. We have moved away from those difficult times and gradually and ever so slowly have evolved into the place you see today. That has happened because of Austin, Nic, Fi Cox, Pol, Bellablue, Jamangie, Mah, Davofgy, Jackie, myself and a lot of others that appear more sporadically these days. The culture, the atmosphere, is because of us, working with and at times against moderation. And yet, as I say, we don't think we have ownership but I'm damn sure we have pride in what we've helped to foster.

    When moderation don't turn around ask me, "what is a troll?" then I'll have much more confidence in their abilities.

    Oh...NSD is a charity and therefore making money isn't part of the equation.

  • And your opinion is respected :)

    Just so happens that this site used to be much more cliquey and a number of us have stayed on not just to support new members and pass on the key messages but also to help foster an inclusive atmosphere to the Forum.

    Not for one minute do we think this is our Forum...just a place that we can come on and offer help, have a laugh and ensure that it goes on being a place of excellence. We know that our desires for change are limited and generally fall on deaf ears but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek change for the better.

    There is history to this site and those ugly sores were nearly exposed recently. We have moved away from those difficult times and gradually and ever so slowly have evolved into the place you see today. That has happened because of Austin, Nic, Fi Cox, Pol, Bellablue, Jamangie, Mah, myself and a lot of others that appear more sporadically these days. The culture, the atmosphere, is because of us, working with and at times against moderation. And yet, as I say, we don't think we have ownership but I'm damn sure we have pride in what we've helped to foster.

    When moderation don't turn around ask me, "what is a troll?" then I'll have much more confidence in their abilities.

    Oh...NSD is a charity and therefore making money isn't part of the equation.

    Well, not having known the history, all I can say is a VERY big thank you to those you mention, and others who have befriended me. I think it's a great place and please keep on helping, stabilising and teaching. (blowing big juicy kiss)

  • John's quote

    The title uses 'pointlessness' and debating this further is adequately covered by that. Thanks for taking the time as well as the use of colour...you are aware it's a favourite of mine ;)

  • The title uses 'pointlessness' and debating this further is adequately covered by that. Thanks for taking the time as well as the use of colour...you are aware it's a favourite of mine ;)

    Sorry about the colour Cav I was looking for somthing contrasting, and red is too in your face...no offence meant and I hope none taken

  • Sorry about the colour Cav I was looking for somthing contrasting, and red is too in your face...no offence meant and I hope none taken

    No need to apologise. Contrasting isn't a prerequisite...but you do your thing if so wished. Ha, offence...I'm much too thick-skinned for that :p

  • How bizarre, it's one of the first things I go to on a new forum because invariably it's the reason I joined.

    If the stickies don't help I then have to do a search.

    Knowledge bases are fabulous tools.

    Same here, Austin.

    The times I see many relevant questions being asked over and over and over again!!

    Lack of stickies is, and not just in the opinion of a few, an omission that beggars belief and is one that will continue to frustrate more than a small amount of members, regardless of time joined.

    As well a supportive environment this site is used by many who choose not to post but rather access the info here and use it as a informative support tool and as such stickies would act a worthy attempt as an index.

  • The point I was making is that a lot of people don't want to read a stickie, they want a personal response.

    There is of course the matter of the number of stickies! Presumeably you don't want the 1st page of any or all categories filled with stickies, surely this would just put people off??:eek:

  • The point I was making is that a lot of people don't want to read a stickie, they want a personal response.

    A valid point, Karrie. Many folk want and need interaction and this site is great for that.

    However, for those who choose to not post and have no want for personal replies, the lack of stickies can make searching relevant information out harder than it need be.

  • A valid point, Karrie. Many folk want and need interaction and this site is great for that.

    However, for those who choose to not post and have no want for personal replies, the lack of stickies can make searching relevant information out harder than it need be.

    Point taken Pol, but who decides what is important me? you? NSD? there will always be a difference of opinion as to what to sticky.

  • There are enough hints, tips and pertinent points made over time that have had extremely favorable replies posted back to them.

    With a little judicious pruning of 'side tracked' posts within those threads, I feel we have what seems a pretty good starting point :) No need for fresh voting and deciding on what does or doesn't make a thread to be stickied. Past posting shows a lot of worthy ones already earmarked, IMHO :)

    Possibly those stickied posts could be locked and just left .... with good advice and no room for derailment ;)

    NSD is tiny and will most likely say they don't have the time ... Mods could do it (or MOD) if given the nod. Jeez ..... anyone whose sensible and cares enough could be given temporary access to do just that.

  • I hope this example sounds clear enough to others to try and explain why I don't think stickies would be beneficial to "everyone". In theory it is a great idea but in practice how can you answer all the different twists on the same query.

    The placing of stickies is basically trying to be helpful to all members pointing towards appropriate advice. If a person chooses not to read them then so be it...it's not compulsory to read them.

    Similarily if a person feels they have other specific concerns not covered by the stickies then nothing stops them from posting a thread to further discuss the issues and possibly how it affects them in particular.

    The further information flowing out of that discussion could be judged to be so valid to the quitting best practice that it could be either given a stickie in its own right or added to an existing one. The Forum should grow over time not just with membership but also with expertise.

    The important thing to note, Karri, is that stickies don't put blocks on accessibility to the Forum....just enhance it.

  • I'm not trying to argue the toss on this subject just giving my own feelings :)

    Just to give you a personal example...

    Mrs Legro has a Fiat 500 and she had a little issue with her car.

    Of course these days you don't ring the garage and speak to someone who knows less about the car than you, you just get on the web.

    She joined the Fiat 500 forum and sure, there were pages of people wanting to know what colour was best, what yours was called, why did you buy one, where did you buy one, should you buy one etc etc

    More importantly there was a trouble-shooting section and stickied within it a topic answering the very question she'd been asking.

    She didn't even join the forum, her car already has a name, but she did get her answer and quite painlessly.

    What we never see are people who come looking for stuff, don't find it and then go elsewhere. NSD claim 750,000 people made a quit attempt on NSD 2010. (An interesting figure seeing as the NHS only recorded 243206 quitters in England, Jan-March 2010) How many of them popped in here to say hello and how many stayed? A pathetically tiny percentage by my calculator.. :(

  • I take your point Austin, but my only concern is that stickies become 'unseen' unless they are changed regaulary.

    Same principle as goods in a shop. Same goods but new position and sales go up.

    So if we had stickies I think they would need to be rotated around a bit if they are to be of any use

  • I take your point Austin, but my only concern is that stickies become 'unseen' unless they are changed regaulary.

    Same principle as goods in a shop. Same goods but new position and sales go up.

    So if we had stickies I think they would need to be rotated around a bit if they are to be of any use

    Whilst Austin is visiting the hospital about the repititive head-banging and twitching recently manifesting.... :rolleyes:

    Picture a troubleshooting section with various headline topics, drilling down your problem you come to sub-sections....

    Types of quitting

    [INDENT]Champix

    Cold Turkey

    NRT

    Allan Carr

    Hypnosis[/INDENT]

    Purple

    [INDENT]apologetically

    unapologetically[/INDENT]

    Multi-IDs

    [INDENT]unique

    based on original ID

    based on known trollers[/INDENT]

    Duncan Bannatyne

    [INDENT]will invest

    will not invest[/INDENT]

  • For my part I'm no 'expert of the forum' just a seasoned user. I also use 2 guitar forums and 5 cycling ones...oh, and a couple of music ones too. These are all moderated by known members and have various sections clearly signposted which includes stickies. Having seen the advantages I see how those would be also advantageous to NSD and the many users coming through. That doesn't make me an expert...just experienced.

    As for the references to brickwall banging...well that's just me. My habit generally leans towards humour and that's just me trying to be humorous. However, cut me and each of the many age rings would scream out inclusive were I generally go for laughing with and not against. We can't be liked by everybody and previously a mention was made about me having a target on my back...I guess it's a 'marmite' thing were some get it and others don't.

    But then we all come onto a Forum and take part to whatever levels. As long as members can take part and have their voice in them for the right reasons and continue to do so then all's well.

  • If we had stickies could one of them be about the purple thing? hahahaha:D:D

  • ... making references to banging your head against a brick wall is starting to get quite irritating.

    I can assure you it's no picnic doing the banging...

    If we had stickies could one of them be about the purple thing? hahahaha:D:D

    Surely you don't mean.....

    media.cleveland.com/ent_imp...

  • Surely you don't mean.....

    media.cleveland.com/ent_imp...

    Reported :mad:

  • Aaah Barney! Is that what it's all about (:D)

  • I am hours off two week, I used NT for most of the time then started reducing the the time I had them on (so basically I was using them as a crutch) I have not had a patch on since friday and feel OK, reading is the greatest asset, the forum is excellent to see what people are up to and how they are coping, and basicallly any literature you can get hold of, it works two fold one keeps you occupied and two in the masses of stuff there is to read, you will find something that 'hits home' and encourage you to stop, we are brain washed into a lot of things, as we were when we started smoking we need to re train our own thoughts and know what is right and wrong for us.

    There is one defininite though smoking will kill us in a horrible way! We cant change the past and we need to let go but we can change the future Andrea

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