Adult son living in his room, refuses everything

Hi all,

Ive had a terrible time with my 23yr old son for many, many years. From toddler til now, he is still oppositional, defiant, you name it, hes thought of the lot. The most contrary person on earth. From age 16, he stopped going out as too many hooligans about and gangs and he would get chased off the street with his mate while all they did was play football. He says I brought him up poofy. By that, he means i didnt teach him how to be tough and nasty. I dont like trouble and dont want him to hit, nor him to get hit. We lived in a rough area where nobody cared what their kids did apart from me and I watched him religiously out the window for many hours which drove me mad in the end! 11 hellish years I spent there, no one wanted my place. Anyway, back to now. As he stopped going out and his mate stopped coming in, he has since had no one to mess around with and talk to. He has 2 younger brothers which he is ok with. The thing is he has always tried to be in control of everything and all of us. He wants things he knows i wont buy him so now hes saying I will allow you to control me at age 23. I can see his mental health is bad now, he stays in his room and plays internet games, doesnt even go in the garden. He says the more people tell me to go out, the more i will stay in, said that since age 16 when professionals tried to help me. He uses emotional blackmail on me. If you wont buy me a certain thing, (which Id rather not say) then i will eat less and less and if you dare to get Drs here I will make myself suffer even more. He says when he is wound up, depressed he deliberately plays games to lose and makes the most out of the humiliation when people post his game losses on other sites and youtube etc. He says things like he will make himself suffer. That he wants to be 100% happy or 100% miserable. He thinks Drs are con artists that they just smile and say nice things but that he is the clued up one and thinks everything through and dont just repeat what others say, that his thinking is unique and well thought out. He thinks psychologists are for soft people that are easily fooled. He now says things like I want you to hate me, the family too, he wants me to throw him out, and let him starve. I know that this is all words to get what he wants and he hates being told no at his age. No matter what his age was, he never did like the word no and always rebelled causing me a lot of grief and everyone else around him. He hates being controlled, yet no one is. He thinks work is for hired slaves and school is prison for kids. No matter what I say, he has a clever answer for everything. even at school age 12, the education psychologist said at a meeting, we all know we shouldnt argue with kids, but i found myself having a standup argument with him for an hour! Thats how smart my son is, he keeps it up for hours and you will tire before he ever does. Hes no different from when he was 3, hes just older and thinking up more stuff. Ways to manipulate me. He used to go mad, scream and smash things in his teen years, knowing full well that that equals neighbours knock and shout and sweat at me over his behavoiur. He has me hook line and sinker. I will never throw him out, he wouldnt have a clue how to look after himself. I do everything for him. But his mental health is not good and it wouldnt be, being stuck in his room for approx 7yrs. I get so nervous and anxious when Ive spoken to Drs about him and got one round a few years back. It was a terrifying 4hrs wait waiting for Dr to turn up, he was kicking off, shouting etc while I look out the window waiting for the Dr and/or neighbours or police to turn up cos of his noise. I get completely stressed out and have no confidence myself and fear neighbours getting on my case about it. I fear that if I get a professional around, I wont hear the end of it and again it will drive him crazy and myself as he dont give up the fight and can keep it up for hours. He says help with what, hes happy being in his room being left alone. It dont look like it as he dont stop talking about the past and how that drives him mad thinking about it. Says the only way to be happy is not be around people. He said animals dont f... you up, only people do. That animals dont suicide, but people do cos of what people do to each other. So to be totally alone is the best thing for him! Even when young, when he really wanted to do something like go to an amusement park, if it was my idea, he wouldnt go! Its been one big battle and neither of us have won any. I told him that if you dont have discipline and rules, you have chaos. Im not controlling him, hes controlling me as always. He wanted a dog when he was 16, I said no for a year, but felt sorry for him being all alone in his room and I knew he wouldnt stick to anything he said he would do for the dog, but got the dog as a companion for him. He doesnt let me finish any sentences, he says i know what u r going to say. Ive tried to not say anything for a long while to keep the peace, but feel that that is wrong too as he must hear me speaking to his brothers and laughing and joking with them etc. But he is impossible. I am very worried about the state of his mental health. the dr that was here a few years ago, said that hes not sure if he is in charge of his thoughts, or if he should be sectioned. I was under the impression that you only get sectioned if you are a danger to yourself or others. Neither is the case though. Hes clever at manipulating, always was, he dont look right now. My head is telling me to get him some serious help whether he wants it or not, but he is ruling my heart as I would hate to see him carted off against his will if they thought that is what he ought to have. And even if they did section him, and give him drugs, unless they keep him there permanently which is something that I would never get over, he will only come out and go back to exactly how he was but worse just to teach me a lesson to leave him alone. He is determined to do the complete opposite in any situation. I have never known another like him. Im at a loss. I suffer from panic attacks and depression myself, but for me, I know its a matter of time, like a month or so, then it passes and Im ok again. I deal with my own issues by just doing the least I can get away with each day, crying helps get it out of your system, but I have to carry on regardless. I dont eat much myself as Ive been depressed for approx 15 years or so, mainly down to past neighbours who really got me down. But Im not worried about myself, Im always okish in the end, but what do i do about my son? I cant let him carry on living his life in his room, no sunlight on him, no exercise, nothing but the internet. He says hes happy doing it. Its not healthy for you though. He dont want people to see him, thats lack of confidence not having been out the door hardly in 7years. Under 16yrs old, I couldnt keep him in, football mad, loads of birthday parties, always round friends house, everyone loved him, he had a whacky personality, well liked, cheeky, funny, the class clown. He claims that kids are brainless and things are put infront of them to do, that he knows if he would like something or not before trying it. That if he had his time again, he would sit only infront of the internet and not have had friends! That it is wrong for parents to try and make their kids do things! I never forced him to join football, he wanted to, nor did i force him to go to parties or have his own, he loved it, all of which he now denies. Hes now saying how would I like it if he took my fags away! I said but you cant do that as its my house and you live under my roof. He said but if I did, I can see how you would react to being told no you cant have something. I said but you are my kid, even tho you are not a kid and no matter what age you are at any time, you have no say in what I do in my house! I said if a friend says i cant smoke in their house, then i have to go outside and smoke, he said, and you put up with that! I said yes, its their house, their rules! Theres miles more to this, but I think most of you will be asleep half way thru reading! I am at my wits end and have started feeling sick again which happens when im stressed and worried and now have a cold sore too, headaches are coming back also because of the state of things, just scared stiff to go against his wishes, but I know deep down that I should. He said so you are trying to change who I am, and if hes on medication then he wont be the same person! Answer for everything. Everyone has said who I know personally get him help, what am i waiting for. Its not them that has to deal with the consequence of him going crazy and never shutting up through the night that has to deal with it, they carry on with their happy lives and Im on my own with him. Hes not voilent and dont threaten to be, but the non stop crazy talk that he does is enough to drive a psychiatrist crazy. Its a bit like a rambling drunk, that dont stop repeating themselves for 12 hours a day. By the way, he dont drink or take drugs at all.

Please, the last thing I want to hear right now is any putdowns, or that Im bad for not getting him help, (Ive tried many a time in the past over the years), that will further depress me, and believe me, that wont leave my head for many months and worsen the problem. I do want him to be helped, but how do I go about it? I cant handle the state he gets into when he starts, he has no idea the affect he has on me, but Im sure he cant help it either.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

62 Replies

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  • Hi,

    Wow, you have it tough.

    There appears to be only 1 solution here - having your son moved to an institution where his issues can be worked on.

    It's probably not what you want to hear but reading your posts, the reasons appear sound:

    - There are younger siblings in the household and this behavior and your response to it cannot be good for them. I am not saying your response is bad - it just has not worked or helped, so you need to try something else

    - Making you feel bad about his upbringing and the manipulation to get things he wants is going to break you down badly one day and that will not be easy to fix. So, your own well-being is at stake.

    - He appears to have NPD - Narcissistic Personality Disorder: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narci...

    This can be treated but would work best in an environment away from home.

    Hope this helps?

    Rick1on1

  • Thanks, I will look into this. His brothers are 19 and doing well.

  • Agree an institution may help, but where are such places? Prison, mental health units

    This is really difficult and I don't see an end to it unless physical illness intervenes

  • totally agree. I spoke to someone I know that used to work in mental health recently. she said she has seen some terrible things and that 1 time, a young man went to police and said he has to have help as he is hearing things and that he wants to murder someone, they got him seen to by the mental health team who determined there was nothing wrong with him, a week later, he killed someone and then went to prison. This is why Im scared stiff, prison is not right for him, he is misunderstood, my dad is the only one that understands and even he hasnt seen him at his worst. He had him for a year at age 11. Ive wrote more down below to someone else. My son has no intention of deliberately hurting anyone, he is soft. But angry and cant stand the word no! Some things he says are really intelligent and others seem really crazy.

  • I agree with Rick1on1 you need to act now. Your son is manipulating you to stop you doing anything but if you don't you'll have a breakdown.

    I've been in a similar position where you just take it all on and keep going. Your living a nightmare whilst keeping it okay for your kids.

    Your son is an adult now and you'd be better if he had his own place. He would need to know you will still be there for him. Maybe help him decorate and set up his internet. If in the U.K. He could get benefits to pay rent and living expenses.

    If he didn't live with you you could help him but still get a break which you won't be getting now. If he did get sectioned or go in voluntary they could help him get his own place after treating him. You'd have to be strong because it's easier to let him come home but it's not good for any of you.

    If he feels you've made him as he says poofy you could talk to him about self defence classes. Sounds like he'd have an excuse but that's up to him and exercise will help his mood and to meet people.

    He might at first feel your rejecting him for suggesting his own place so you might need to sell it to him. As long as your still there for him he will get over it.

    Also if you call the doctor and he gets help he'll get over that too. It's if they do nothing that gives him more ammunition to throw it back at you. Could you visit the doctor first to have a chat and plan how they approach him best.?

  • Thanks for yr reply. He says to feel fully happy he has to be 100% alone. I said but if you lived on your own you would have to at least answer the door to workmen postman etc. We talked for 2hrs the other night, I got nowhere fast, he would rather email me than talk to me! His sleep pattern is all up the wall. He wont come down any more to see my dad or sister when they come. Hes totally lost the plot I think. The more you stay indoors the more it will affect your mental health. I told him every person and every living thing has to go outside and get exercise and daylight on them. He claims he is unique and not like other people. I told him we are all made of the same stuff though. Even if he wanted to go out, he wouldnt as he knows that thats what I want him to do! So oppositional its unreal. He says people get paid thousands to stream, which is true, Ive seen it, and that he could do that, but that Im stopping him as hes unhappy. But that if he did stream, if he caught me being happy about him doing it, he would stop! There is no winning. The professionals said back then, a nice kid, but that they have never in their whole career met another like him.

    As a kid i mentioned self defence to him as one of his mates did ju jitsu and kick boxing, he used to watch, but didnt want to do it. The older he got, he lost all confidence in going out. He used to chat to girls, but that disappeared also come age 16.

    Says he is happy being miserable! go figure!

  • Firstly you need to give yourself some me time as you sound utterly exhausted, the cold sore (stress) headaches, you cannot carry on much longer plus you have two younger siblings. Why has your doctor not helped you I do not know. I totally agree with Rick 1 on 1 your son URGENTLY needs treatment, he will have to go away to be treated ASAP and deep down you know this. Insist that he is causing havoc in your home and you need help. If necessary phone up an institution that Rick suggested and find out how he can be treated, you need to do this to help him, your children but mostly yourself as we can all see you are at your wits end. Please do this tomorrow without fail, you have a responsibility to your other children too, you have a very sick son needing help, we have just entered a new year so start on a positive note and get this sorted. Once he gets treatment you will feel so much better, this is destroying you. Let me know how it goes 😊Xx

  • Thanks for your reply. I am too soft, I know. I should have done this a long time ago, I get scared stiff that worse things will happen to him if he dont comply with whoever has him. A long post has been written near the bottom to someone else to give you an idea of what he can get like if u dare try to control him! My other kids are 19, 1 in university and doing brilliantly, the other in college. They are used to him now. Whenever i say to him, you ought to see someone, and get help, he says help with what. that hes happy being on his own if only people would leave him alone etc. He says tablets are only a temporary fix, that he wants to be happy naturally but cant while he lives with us. No one is doing anything to him. They dont wind him up or nothing. They go about their own business etc. He thinks up the past too much and it drives him mad. Im the same as that, but I deal with it by just crying and scrubbing the house ferociously to try take my mind off things. I dont show them my true feelings, or cry infront of them, in fact quite the opposite, put on a smile and brave face and act like all is fine. I think I should bring in an ex serviceman, someone who will take no nonsense but that will also guide him, listen to him and try help him. His dad dont want to know, infact he kicked me out one month before he was born, yet still he rings to tell me how life is great for him!

    My dad said he would love to hear the conversation with a top psychiatrist and my son. I can just picture it now, my son would have him tied up in knots! He would run for the hills and not come back. Hes messed up as well as smart, a clever thinker, he has surprised me with his knowledge that I had to look up on internet!

    Left school age 12

  • There you are, you have an amazing 19 year old at university, another in college. Do not let this carry on for your other children's sake. I had problems with my eldest years ago, as my other two were much younger I was fortunate that he could stay at my parents until he was older and more focused. Nothing like what you are going through though. I am rooting for you, have the strength to do this, it's for his sake. Keep me informed Helen xxxx

  • Having just read this I am not really surprised your son was born angry. Kids absorb all your chemicals in your blood, and no doubt it was a very difficult time, with lots of worry and anger. From such a bad start, things have gone downhill due to so many overreactions. How can you try to dial down the drama now to allow things to get a bit calmer?

  • The drama died down a long time ago. I cant really help having panic attacks when neighbours knock and have a go and swear at me over the noise, that was a long time ago though. All is calm in my house and has been for years, I tread carefully with what I say to him as nearly all of it, he finds fault with. Its just his way which he cant help. Are babies born angry? The neighbours hadnt started knocking at that point!

    I fail to see how the man I loved and wanted to be with forever and bring our kid up together is an overreaction, yes I cried the whole time, it is natural, it was also bad timing that he kicked me out just before he was born. I cant turn my feelings off like a tap? What with hormones up the wall after giving birth as is to be expected. I think I handled it all pretty well considering and had the full support of family and friends.

  • No no, I wasn't saying that. I was talking about the use of force by carers.

  • He refuses help. But maybe you could find someone to help you get your head around the way forward for you and your family to get the best you can from the situation, you can't do this on your own. It would need continual support for YOU. You would have to be lucky to find a competent profession though. But worth a try surely.

    He sounds very bright. That he is still at home is testament to your love and care. And although he won't acknowelege it he will know this.

    All I know is it ain't easy being a kid and it's worse being a parent. You so want to write a happy life story for them.

    Hang in there.

  • youngminds.org.uk/

    I have no experience with this outfit. But they have a parent help line.

  • I also know that you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

    Love from one stessed out parent to another.

    We all do the best we can with what we have got.

    You mate need a lovely holiday away from it all for a bit.

  • Thanks for your replies, I will look into the link 2moro, bed now! up in 5hrs.

  • Even if you luck out. They should be able to give you some info on other services in the area.

    I think society tries hard to make children conform, and the system fails them if they don't. I remember one boy I worked with years ago. And I had this awful feeling that early years would be the happiest time of his life, I hope I was wrong. I would love to touch base with him now.

    I don't think any of us are continually happy. But maybe your son really is ok most of time. Doing his own thing. Life has ups and downs for even those who draw the luckiest of hands,

    As I get older I have realised that you get your happies where you can.

    Working on the rule do no harm.

    Ps does he go out to get his hair cut? A weird ? But then I a man out of the box myself!

    May you and yours have a good day and squeeze a few happies in there somewhere,

  • A friend of mine said, when they were all small, I dont know how you cope, I would have been in my box by now!

    A psychiatrist used to visit me at home as my son, as he got bigger, wouldnt go and I couldnt drag him there, the Dr fell asleep listening! He was past retirement age, and at the school meetings, I warned them that theres a good chance the psychiatrist will fall asleep there and he did!

    A few years ago after the Dr came and gave me his thoughts, he said get the mental health team around. We sorted this out, again I was scared stiff of the outcome, how crazy he goes when people have to talk to him against his will, he wont hit or throw things, but its nerve wrecking and I fear neighbours will knock or call the cops I cant handle trouble of any kind, Ive lost all confidence myself over the years and cant keep the battle up.

  • I agree, finding someone competent is key to this. My son will spot a fool a mile off. Its a shame he just wont talk to anyone, not even family any more. Only his brothers and only about internet games.

  • Hello Dogslife

    I can feel the pain anguish and the frustration you feel not being able to share the fulfillment of watching your son's life blossom.

    Could he be blaming you for something he can't grow past , something or someone he can't face on his own outside your door

    Maybe It's time for you to face his fear with him , you mustn't let him hide behind your love

    What happened when he was 16 , did someone threaten him , was it his hormones that we all have to face growing up

    You say that he said that you made him puffy , maybe he thinks he's gay and can't face the prospect , that would be made worse if you live in a tough area

    Maybe if that's the case get someone from a respectable gay organisation to talk to him

    Whatever his fear he needs to be amongst others who are like minded and care

    The bullies grow away pulled by the demands that life puts on them

    Whatever is there the strength of a mothers love is greater than all adversity

    I wish you that love

  • Hi, no hes not gay, he liked a girl a year younger than him once, I could tell. He stopped going out because of trouble making hooligans whose mums didnt care less. My son isnt a fighter or trouble maker and would come running home, i think its that what bothers him, that he werent like all the rest and fight back. I never once said to hit back, but i thought it was only natural, we all would defend ourselves afterall, unless theres loads of them, which was the case. Once he turned about 13 he started to be conscious of himself and who was around him. He started to lose self confidence. He claims he hated going out, that he was a brainless kid like all kids, that if he had his life again, he would just stay home and sit at pc. Thats rubbish, I couldnt keep him in! A good footballer, whacky personality, everyone loved him, but that all changed when he become a teenager and now things have really spiralled out of control, but Im glad his angry ways are done.

    thanks for your reply

  • I do hope you make progress with him . Have you had any health professionals around to see him.. It's such a shame for him because he's missing out on the the years you grow your adult life upon

  • Does he have a drink ? If so maybe you could slightly anaesthetise him to go out for a walk with you

  • Hi again

    I was always a quiet one , I never got mixed up with the rough and tumble , I was always reserved and quiet , I think I played out with a mixed bunch till teens , I've been a quiet one all my life , until 9yrs ago I started with epilepsy and the medication I am now on has changed me so much , I talk to anyone spontaneously anywhere , I just love talking to people .

    Do you think that his hormones may be lacking like my own were

  • Slightly anaethetise him!!!!! I love it. But I really don't think this a good idea.

  • Hi Dogslife, this sounds a lot like my 26 year old son. Problems with him have caused a lot of my depression. We had to kick him out at 19 as he would get drunk and try to beat myself and my partner. It is a million times better now that he is not with us but the drinking continues. he works but never has money and like your son is controlling and always likes to do the opposite. he has never had friends apart from one woman in her forties who is the local scrounger.I think he is a sociopath. one thing strange in all tis is the fact that he adores gossip. which is such a social thing. Hope all this makes you realise you are not the only one and I hope any advice you are given can help me xxxxxxxxxxx

  • Thanks for that. I am trying to figure out the best way forward without driving my son mad. I hear him loud and clear, he dont want help, but hes not right in his mind I dont think. I hope everyones advice can help you too.

  • Oh, wow. You do need a break. It sounds like maybe your boy was predisposed for a disorder, but was doing ok for a bit. Why did his friend stop coming around? Maybe they had a falling out that triggered the behaviors that keep him hidden in his room & on the internet. Can you talk to his friend and get some information? Can you cut off his internet? He may take his rage up a notch. If he gets angry & starts throwing things, you can call the police. An arrest might wake him up or it might help him get the assistance he needs to get his life back together. I am praying for you.

  • You suffer from a lot of anxiety from what you write. Perhaps your anxiety has affected your son. I am not blaming you, but it must have been a burden for him to bear. Now he is responding with threats that upset you to get back at you. Revenge will hurt him more than you in the long run but what can you do to make him see this? Not much. All you can do is do not let him see it works, and go about your life as much as possible, leaving him to think it through.

    I suggest you take him at face value and leave him alone, and go get help for yourself. Once you learn how to cope with life he may feel less put on, and sort himself out.He seems to want to live in his own way, and as he is 23 and an adult, he has the right to decide. Don't pull the old 'Not in my house' thing unless his behaviour is affecting his brothers directly. After all it is his home too. Hopefulyl his brothers will see his bad behaviour does nto work to achieve anything good, and not follow his example.

  • I have to apologise if this came over as if I was blaming you. Anxiety caused by something like living under stress all the time is completely natural and understandable. On reflection I am coming to think your son is very ungrateful for your concern for him, but maybe one day when he has kids of his own he will realise that. Until then I think he is in need of tough love as others have said. His attitude, if he was a boyfriend, would be called emotional abuse and you do not have to put up with it. you do not have a partner form what you said, but it sounds as if your eldest son has taken one the role of the dominant male. If you have self esteem issues, or been brought up to pander to men (as lots of us women have) you are an easy target for an abusive man, even if it is your son.

    Do not feel guilty for having been a caring mother. Instead, keep on being caring and put the other two kids first. If your oldest son is past help then he must leave. He is no longer your problem.

    The only other thing I can suggest is that you stop taking on board all his accusations and think through some better answers. For example, if he tries to use emotional blackmail then say that it is up to him. You have done all you can as a mother, you did the best you could under the conditions you were living in, and if it was not good enough he should vote with his feet, but you are not going to put up with insults and emotional blackmail.

  • thats the trouble, Ive been leaving him alone, Ive tried not talking to him so as not to provoke, as when he was a teenager, he would go mad at the slightest thing I would say. the reason I cant leave it any longer is that he is thin, not caring for himself properly, he leaves the curtains closed, but if they are open, he leaves them open forever. The light stays permanently on, he wont use a knife and fork for dinner so im limited as to what I can give him. he likes clothes that dont have buttons or zips, he likes things that simple.

    It was only because he said to me how would I like it if he took my fags away, that triggered me to say you cant do that, as its my house etc. His brothers have been easy to deal with over the years, they never copied him, always did what they had to do in school and out. No worries at all with them. they are 19. My son keeps repeating himself in messages to me. he said he would rather do that than speak in person so he can properly think things through. Some of it is very cleverly thought out and intelligent, considering he left school at 12, but other things he writes, seem a little crazy.

    I must go, got to be up in 5hours, doubt I will sleep right now though.

    thanks for your comments

  • Has he been properly assessed by a psychologist? It sounds as if he has a personality disorder possibly anti social personally disorder. If this is the case then he will never accept responsibility and always deflect everything onto others rather than himself. It's part of the condition. I am so sorry you are going through this and you sound like a very committed and loving parent who only wants what's best. He is however an adult now and you don't have to take this in your own home. I am not sure what to say to help as it seems you have done everything within your power to help but nothing has or is working for him. Maybe finding him accommodation so he can learn some self care and self help skills may help as it sounds as if you are his emotional punch bag at the moment.

  • so many have tried to assess him but he never sat still long enough, he would just walk out, the last one said, dont expect too much from him!

  • At the end of my post which I sat crying typing last night I did say please no put downs, which is what you have done. You dont know me or what me and my son have been through. I will never give him up or turf him out no matter what but I do want him to get well and live a normal life. If hes not in charge of his own thoughts then he is not fit to live on his own. This is the Drs comment, not mine.

    They are all equally important, my other two are 19 and one is in university and doing brilliantly, the other in college still. I just cant turf him out no matter what, he has problems larger than life, he would cut off his nose to spite his face, he dont care for consequences and Ive taken things away in the past and it had no effect on him, he just goes more ballistic and its me that has to suffer in the meantime. My other 2, now that they are older give him his answer, they are not scared of him and nor does he cause them trouble. They have got used to his ways over a lifetime. My eldest probably thinks I care about them more than him because of all what went on when they were young. i.e. stop him from hitting them, his answer to them would be, thanks a lot, you got mum on to me. they did not, i see what he did and I stopped it. He dont like being controlled, not then and not now. Its hard to explain as seeing is believing. My dad didnt know exactly what was going on even tho I told him, he took him off my hands at age 11 for a year. My dad is like a sergeant major, a no nonsense man. He had had enough after a year, dad said only a mum could put up with that! Hes right. I care about them all equally, but he has severe issues and cant let things go, I dont know what medical condition he has as he wouldnt sit still long enough infront of Drs etc for them to assess him. But we all know there is something wrong.

    I am the type that puts up with a lot from everyone, Id rather not get into it with people. Ive let mates really take the mick out of me before and stay friends for a further 30years! I am sick of being an idiot but I wont pull people up. I am who I am and wont apologise for it. My family make me feel no dam good as well which adds to the problems. Id like to see them do what Ive done and live to tell the tale!

    I know that unless I do something now, nothing will change, I was just hoping he would get fed up with his lifestyle, sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before doing something about it. If its my idea, his answer will always be no!

    You speak as tho he is a normal functioning person, he isnt, therefore how can you just chuck him out on the streets! Thats what would be disgusting.

    thanks for your comment anyway

  • Sorry I thought you wanted honest opinions. I gave you an honest and genuine response. I have now deleted my replies and won't be answering any more to you.

    We all suffer from depression here don't forget and my spirits are low enough as it is at the moment. I don't need more put downs.

    No point responding to my reply please as I will not read it. I'm done.

  • I am not judging at all. I am just saying his treatment of you is unfair but I get why you are at your wits end with it all. I have a daughter who sounds very similar to this and I struggle daily to help her or get her to understand how her actions effect others. Of course non of us know the extent of what has gone on but we are just giving input.

  • not sure if you thought my above comment was to you, it wasnt, the person has since deleted his personal comment! i wrote on 8th at 5.51pm. I was told to put my other lads before him. I like to think I put them all first, I cant split myself in 3! It is a tough one for sure. I dont have a partner to help me make decisions. I am severely depressed right now, crying on and off, woke with puffy eyes this morning. I know I must do something soon. I appreciate everyones help thats why I came on here. I found this site thru mental health crisis team, was my dads idea to do that. He is sometimes my back bone and gives me ideas. he used to be a volunteer for MIND. Later on tonight I will put some of my sons quotes to give everyone an idea of how awkward he really is.

  • No it's fine don't worry I did actually realise after I posted that as hadn't read all the above comments properly and then did later. I have a brother with severe mental health issues he has schizophrenia and he is 42 which I know is different but seen how much stress my own mum had been under over the years due to his problems. I think a lot of caring mums would do the same and nobody understands your situation fully until they have walked in your shoes, she could never throw him out even when he became very scary. I've seen her get so low over it all and it went down hill for her as soon as his problems intensified. It's that feeling of sheer helplessness I know and the constant trying new solutions that just don't work. Sadly some people are so complexed it's never easy.

  • Thanks katie. I feel for your mum, I really do and for your brother too. I know of a mum that kicked out her problem son when he was 16 as he was trouble. He has mental health problems now, severe ones and often goes into a psychiactric ward. he could do with his mums help, not her turning her back on him. I know what he is and was like, but nevertheless, you should never turn your back on your own kids. He has done me harm too but I still help him, as he can be nice and kind, he cant always help the way he is I believe. His place is a real state, he allows the dogs to mess on the floor, theyve never been trained and he dont have a garden, so he walks about in their mess barefoot and theres damp all over the ceilings. His CPN has let him down, he should get more help at home. Ive seen him rocking and talking to himself. Hes 44 now. I also had a friend of 30years that hung herself as she suffered as a kid, but she fooled all the Drs and told them she was fine, but far from it, I had no idea she was suffering but knew of her past and now shes gone. Theres not enough of the right help about I believe and too many suicides. If my son would just eat right that would be a start. He noticed that I was putting more and more carrots on his plate, he isnt fooled, and said I know what u r doing, and to not make them any more. So now he wont eat veg even though he loves it. Makes no sense. Hes his own worst enemy. A couple of people throughout the years have said, someone somewhere must be able to do something with my son, but that they arent the right people to do it. One was his first carer, an excellent one at that. He adopted a kid, similar age to my son at that point, he had fostered 37 kids over approx 20years, he said himself, after having had so many foster kids, your son is the most difficult one Ive ever had or known. Its true. Albeit he is a nice kid, they all say that and he is. Just cant comply with things. Would rather make himself suffer than have an easy life.

    You cant throw someone out thats not right in their head which my son isnt, he wouldnt be able to cope and do all the things I do. I dont know what will happen in the end, like when Im not around any more, Ive put that to him, he said he will look up what to do. he dont want to see people any more though, says people f people up! This is true, but not of everyone. Ive had my fare share of people being out of line to me and I allow it to avoid an argument, I too like him, get in a state as I feel no good and have an inferiority complex, but I still have to carry on regardless. He does listen to my dad more than me though, men can have that effect on you more than mums I think. My dad does tread carefully with him as he knows what hes like and that he has answers for everything. If he could help it, Im sure he would, not many people would live a life like that if they could help it.

    I will chat to a crisis team and see what they say. When my kids have problems, they become my problems, I wish I could do their problems for them, it makes me so ill when ever they have issues of any kind. I worry myself sick.

    Take care

  • I used to see my son every day and was always lending him money, running him around and buying him stuff. He would say I have no food or rent money or money to get to work and would speak to me like a dog. During the last 5 months, due to my depression I have only seen him twice and have not given him a penny or bought him anything, yet he has managed to feed himself, keep a roof over his head and go to work. It must be a miracle [ says she with sarcasm ] xxxxxx

  • But does he have severe mental health issues?

  • He has some OCD but as I said I am convinced that he is a sociopath which is a mental disorder but does not stop him fending for himself, in fact he seems to look after himself very well with his controlling and scheming behaviour. Your son needs professional diagnosis so that you know what you are up against. there seems to be a lot of speculation flying about. xxxxx

  • I see. I have read all the posts, but forgot you had described your son much earlier on! I am so forgetful! Ive just re read your initial post and understand now. I think all the professionals that engaged with him over many years were glad when the clock struck 16! They couldnt wait to close the file leaving me alone to deal with it all. He retired at the age of just 12. Refused to go to school, but they understood what I was dealing with so I didnt have to go to prison for it. Theres so much more to this story. He went into care after my dad couldnt handle him any more, thinking that that would be a good idea. Hes never hit another kid, not in self defence, hes a nice person, but also very misunderstood i think. The carers passed him about much more than you would a dog! He had about 4 different carers in the space of a year, unreal. He was promised a normal mainstream school but put him in one of those for behavioural problems. So again, he hates being lied to and just goes against the grain. He trusts no one, he says they are full of broken promises. One time, he wouldnt do his work so they cleared the room, no chair to sit on, nothing, they were very tough on him at age 12 and he was small for his age. He went to lean against the window cill, they pulled him off. Why it took 3 beefy men to pin him down and bruise his shoulder I dont know. I guess it was like prison for kids as he puts it. If you treat someone like an animal, thats what they become. I feared for him in care, because i know he wont do what he is told if his life depends on it. Then one day, his minder, someone from the foster agency, took him out to play golf. (fancy putting a golf club in the hands of an angry kid!) I hate thinking of the past, it makes me feel physically sick. My son got the hump about what the man said, and he flung the golf club towards the bushes. But it hit the mans chin as he bent down to pick up the club. Son run off as he was shocked and frightened, he didnt aim that club and hes not violent at all but knew he was in trouble. They like to keep mums out of it and altho it was voluntary, putting him in care to see if they could do a better job, things got worse. Its now 5pm and friday eve, the social workers didnt get back to me to tell me if they had found him. I tried ringing up all the local police stations as the foster agency wasnt answering their phone. It was a living hell for me. Turns out they talked to him, put him in a cell for just 10 mins to let him know what it would be like if he carries on this way. I thought prison is the last thing he wants, he could do with a proper professional, someone nice and caring, not more bad things happening to him. He has a good heart and is liked by all. Even that school he went to which you cant get excluded from, they excluded him after just 6 weeks! This is what I mean about him, no matter what you do, what you try, he will resist and go against the grain, and I dont want him ending up in prison or anywhere bad, as I truly believe its not his fault the way he is. Being a young kid, they let things slide a bit, but now hes 23, they wont, Im trying to save him from a life worse than hell, I know he does have to have help though. Sorry Ive gone on, but its best to get a proper picture! I have to make a conscious decision to do something and right now. Some people would argue, if they wanted to stay in their room and just eat tomatoes then theres nothing anyone could do. but when mental health is bad, you should do something.

    thanks for yr reply

  • Sounds to me like a vicious cycle. He has lots of anger and this sparks anger back in the professionals who care for him and this in turn makes him more angry and this goes on and on. He seems to have so much anger that he cant see rationally xxxxxxxxxx

  • So, to recap...You have been bringing up a very strong willed boy, on your own, trying to be both mother and father, trying to use your father's methods and they have not worked. Your son has dug in his heels and defied you, and it worked. He has then been passed from one person to the next, all of whom seem to have tried to break his will. He may have felt let down by this, and very scared and alone. If your father had had him from day one there is a chance it would have worked, but there is also a chance that your son would have gone off the rails much earlier than 16. Maybe you have given your son a better upbringing than you and he realise. Your love for him, shown through your concern for him and the fact you are still trying to help him, may still be his (and your) salvation.

    I would suggest you stop trying to force your will on this boy / man. His stubborn refusal muscles are well developed. He can spot a manipulator at 20 paces, so trying new tactics might only result in him developing new methods of resistance. Instead practise accepting him as he is, the product of his genes and background. Accept the situation for what it is, not what you wish it would be. Find something to love in him, and to compliment him on every day. Start rebuilding that love and trust that was lost when you lost sight of your own values. Be the mother that you are, not the father that he does not have. Explain to him that it is up to him now to be a man, and find ways to self-discipline himself, and you are not going to continue to repeat yourself. You have made your house rules clear and he must do his best to stick to them. Also make it clear that whilst you love him you will not stick around when he is going crazy, or be guilted into doing things for him. Just repeat to him that you love him and walk away. If he really wants to hurt himself he will do it regardless of you, and if it is just a bluff then you will know. Be true to yourself and follow your heart, not your Dad's philosophy on child rearing, or your neighbours suggestions. Have faith that is will all work out in the end. Sometimes that is all one can do.

    I hope this helps. From one single Mum, struggling against a similar situation, to another.

    PS: Staying in his room all day and night and going on the internet is defintely not the best thing for him, but plenty of people have survived much worse, so try not to stress over it. All you are doing is trying to impose your (or your Dad's) views on him, and being a contrary, oppositional, stubborn and determined young man, you aint going to win by using force, arguments or logic, so I would suggest you stop trying.

  • Oh, and Sod your Father's opinions on how you have managed. He sounds like a bit of a bully and has probably undermined your self confidence and contributed to all this by being judgemental. I suggest keeping him out of the picture for as long as possible. (Sorry about the language, but I have one just like him, who has messed with my head for far too long).

  • Thanks for your reply. You speak many true words. Thats the trouble though, Ive never been that forceful! My son is the manipulator, not me and he can spot things a mile off thats true. He manipulated the school psychologist at just age 12, brought him into an arguement which the psychologist lost! My son is good at what he does, no one to date has won an arguement whereby they have only tried to assess him or get him help. Its just a disaster. He is strong willed and always was, he would rather take the punishments and consequences than do what is asked of him. At approx age 10, he was asked to complete his work at school and he took himself outside the headmistresses room and went on hunger strike for the day and didnt budge!

    You are right, I wont win a thing with him, even if he liked what I suggest, as its my idea, he wont do it! He is his own worst enemy. He says when people talk rubbish it bothers him and he lets it get to him for years, unlike him where he thinks every possible thing through. He has a very rigid way of thinking, I thought I was bad enough.

  • I love this. It will be a great help to me too xxxxxxxxx This is for findingme

  • Your son is terrified of people. It's that simple. When he was very little, he would not have been able to communicate how he felt. Little children can't. They have no words such as turmoil or panic or overwhelmed etc in their vocabulary at such a young age of two or three years old. He had no way of telling you that life and people terrify him. However, he's clearly very intelligent and probably blames himself for not being able to cope. Do not kick him out. You have been his rock, his anchor, his safety all his life. He kicks out at you because he does not fear you. Please don't force anything on him. It will merely increase his fear.

    Trying to talk to him and explain, reason, cajole, bribe etc will not work. He cannot help the pattern of behaviour that has become somewhat hard-wired after all these years and it would be a bit cruel for him to be made to feel guilty for what he is like. He was possibly born this way or some very early trauma set him on this path. It is not his fault. And it is NOT YOUR FAULT either.

    The biggest problem with all of this seems to be the inability for you both to talk about the what, why, how etc of everything. Stop trying to talk to him about this. He clearly doesn't have what is called "insight" regarding how he feels. He just feels the way he feels. It's as confusing and weird and crazy to him as it is for you and others around him.

    Your best tactic on the road to helping your child - sod how old he is in years, he's clearly not a grown up in any sense - is to WRITE to him. Tell him you love him, which clearly you do and he knows it too, but you can never tell a child too often that you love them.

    So, tell him you love him. Tell him you will never give up on him and that all you want is for him to feel safe and unafraid. Be honest with him. Tell him you don't know how to help him but that you want him to know that that is all you want to do. Help. Not control. Ask him if he would be willing to write you a list of all the stuff he does like and all the stuff he doesn't. Explain to him that all you have ever wanted is for your first born to be happy and healthy. (As with all your children.)

    He will not respond with a clear, even, and thought out letter, because he probably doesn't really know what he wants.......other than to feel safe and free from any outside stress or pressure. (Don't we all!?!). Give it time, however, and keep writing to him. Don't bombard him with reams and reams of paper. That will only overwhelm him. Pick a day, say a Sunday, and then once a week, write to him.

    He will probably tear the first few up or write back with a lot of nonsense etc but stick at it. Just once a week, post a letter under his door or whatever and ask him if there is anything he would like to happen, or not, over the coming days. Make a few suggestions such as, would he like to de-clutter his room, or have different curtains/blinds that he feels he'd prefer to his existing ones? Same as quilt covers etc.

    Start slowly. Ask if he'd like to give you a timetable of such things as meals, the day that his laundry is done. Anything he fancies for dinner in the next seven days.

    Ignore those who say that you'll only become a slave and that you're pandering to him. He is your child, no one else's. The most important thing for any child OR ADULT is to feel safe and secure. Trying to find a way to provide this for your lad is what mums do every day. Well, good mums do, and you sound like a very good mum to me!! Once the lines of calm communications is established - and writing to him means there are no raised voices, no tones or inflections in how you say something, no facial signs of stress such as frowning or upset etc etc and he can choose to read your letters at a time that suits him, it will definitely improve how you both interact with each other. No pressure at all. Stick at it too. Even if the first ones come back in tattered bits, still write another one. He will read them eventually. Curiosity will make him do so, even if he tries to ignore them.

    Things should start to calm down. Slowly, yes, but they will.

    Regarding your worries about him getting sunlight etc, get him one of those lights/lamps that mimic sunlight. As long as he's getting enough vitamin D in his diet, he really doesn't need to go outside at all. It's not ideal, of course it's not, but it will keep him healthy.

    I hope my response hasn't been too long. I just know what your child is going through. I would love to stay in touch with you, if only for the odd 'chat' via messenger or text or WhatsApp etc and be someone who will listen and not judge. I'd like to help out but to also extend the hand of friendship. Friendship that doesn't include taking advantage of you or being the shallow type that you seem to have had too many of.

    Either way, I wish you, your son and your other children, the very best for 2017 and every year following.

    DizzyRose x🌹X

  • Another great response. thank you. All he wants to do is type to me, I only type back occasionally trying my best not to provoke him and careful what I write, but it still annoys him! I dont even mention Drs any more, that drives him nuts. As a young kid, around 10yrs old, he would control everything i said, he would say, dont say that word, say another word. i couldnt think of another and I would say, tell me what you want me to say instead and I will say it, no he says, u think of something, i couldnt, and he would go stone raving mad, throw things about, bang walls, shout and swear. Another time i said, dont worry, time flies once you turn 16. His reply was, it dont fly does it mum, and again shouted and went stone raving mad. No matter what I said then or now, drives him nuts, Ive tried since not to say much to him, converations have literally been non existent just to avoid a row. thats not nice either, to have a mum that cant talk to his son. I feel so bad and sorry for him. He has said himself in a message, i couldnt explain what was on my mind as a kid as kids are brainless so im saying it now. He had it all as a kid, a great life, into sports, had friends, football team, was even scouted once. He tries to control them all though and got kicked out. No one has ever got thru to him to date, he is too smart for that. Im not trying to change him, I just want him to be happy and healthy. I think he has an inferiority complex, I know I do. My being scared of neighbours has rubbed off on him, my fault, if the football hit a fence or something, he would come running in scared of what they might say or do, and I would say, oh thanks a lot, here she comes down the garden path. I didnt realise at the time that my being scared of everyone and showing it was rubbing off. When he went into care, the friends of course stopped knocking. When he came back at age 13, they didnt know he was back and he didnt have the confidence to knock. So that was that, alone apart from an 11yr old lad that came in regularly to see my other 2. They become friends, but by the time my son reached 16 and that boy 14, my son didnt want to go out much cos of gangs starting trouble, and the lad likes going outside, it fazed away. I used to take him and my lot everywhere, he would sometimes sleep over. We moved away from the area a few years ago and Im glad, it come way too late. He seemed to get on better with kids slightly younger than him. But at school he was liked by all, and could talk to girls too. I was shy to talk to boys throughout school life, its a wonder they are born! Once he was asleep after going nuts all day, and he can keep it up forever, i was glad, peace at last, i hoped the night would never end, because when I wake up the next day, I was in for another rough ride, i dreded each and every waking moment. It was hell. Now hes not like that, hes calm mostly, he kicks off about twice a year when things really get to him, and there I am looking out the window trembling at the thought of my new neighbours knocking on my door. If I had a partner, Im sure i wouldnt get any knocks at all! My son also says to me he hates it when i have said, keep our noise down, the neighbours will knock, but its true, i cant handle grief from people, its me that has to deal with them, not him.

    I could never kick him out no matter what, Ive always tried to defend him even when I shouldnt have!

    Thanks for your kind words, it helps.

  • Dear dizzyRose

    I think that was excellent what you have put forward to that poor woman , maybe one of his old mates might write him a letter , that could perhaps have him thinking outside the boundaries of his room

  • These circumstances are beyond my experience and I' m limited to just offering sympathy. As you describe things you must be an exceptionally strong person and to me the success of your other two sons indicates that your problem son's behaviour is not something that you should feel any blame for. His behaviour is I would have thought either due to something inherit in him,or some unknown trauma he experienced.

    It seems to me that neither you nor any other parents could solve this problem alone. All you can do is to persist in trying to find professional help for your son , but as you describe his behaviour you're going to be lucky to find any psychiatrist or institution able to help your son. He certainly needs help. That said his intelligence and non-violent character means in my opinion it is not absolutely hopeless. Even if you don't find the right help. knowing that you kept trying all you could will at least leave you feeling more at ease with yourself.

    You obviously don't want to burden your other two sons too much with this at present but once they have finished their courses you might find that discussing this with them brings you the relief of sharing the burden with others who care and might be the best hope of thinking of something that can help. Compared with the time this has been happening that can't be too far away now.

    Olderal

  • Thanks for your kind words.

    My son will never give up the battle. He keeps on messaging me and I do read it all. Its heartbreaking to read.

  • I'm not convinced that the success of the other sons is not because they have seen the results of being stubborn and opposiitonal. Maybe the deeper into trouble the oldest one got, the better behaved the others were. The boys all seem to be quite bright, and could probably work this out at a very young age. But even clever people make mistakes. The eldest son has made the mistake very early on to decide, for whatever reason, to go against authority. It was his choice. When the system, and his family responded by trying to force him to submit (another bad choice perhaps) he became entrenched. His personality has become formed around that one choice. HOWEVER, it is no use him sitting in his bedroom being angry at the world. He needs to realise that only he can decide to change. There is absolutely no shame in admitting you have made a mistake. As long as people do not throw it in his face constantly, and instead welcome him back into the family, there is a good chance he will reform. I suggested the mother show that she still loved him but will not put up with insults, so that he can feel safe in admitting he was wrong. This needs to be his final chance though, and it should be explained to him that he is forgiven for his initial errors, and ask that he forgives those that did not know how to reach him when he was little. Then a line needs to be drawn under the past and it not brought up and dwelt on.

    Whatever way this goes, the path will be long and hard, but that is life. Families are rarely simple. The children are the product of the parents and the grandparents, and back it goes. All we can try to do is forgive and move on.

  • I used to think, why cant the authorities just back off, the more they try, the more he will resist and land himself in further trouble, i.e. special schools. It is the law to give you education, but he doesnt have to take it unfortunately. If he is left alone, he leaves you alone. Ive been leaving him alone for years now, but see he is looking thin and not doing well at all and gets agitated badly and thinks up the past too much and quotes me things that was said to him long ago by all sorts of people. I think of the past too and it bothers me and i get very depressed but it passes. the other two sons were born good! eldest was a screamer and the other 2 werent. when i told the 2 no, they didnt push it or keep on and cause untold trouble like the eldest. they always went to school without any trouble whatsoever. they always did homework on first day given, not the last day. He screamed so much in the hospital after giving birth and i was there for a week, the nurses got sick of it, I didnt, babies cry, they gave him a dummy, i didnt want him to have a dummy, they didnt even ask me! if a nurse cant stand a crying baby theres something wrong there! I can handle all the cries in the world, its the rest of it that was a nightmare, the older he got, the more he thought up to fix people with.

    I could have told the authorities you are wasting your time and money, but its not what they want to hear, i always went along with whatever they wanted me to. I think they were glad when he turned 16 to wash their hands with him. they said he was unique and never known another kid like him

    The other 2 were great, they see me struggling each morning with him, 1 would take his book bag, the other his shoes and I would carry him into the car kicking and screaming! they were about 5 at least and he of course was 9, this carried on forever. He loved a good battle in the morning, every morning and long before they were born. Im sure if he could help it he would, as who would want to live like it or be like it. Friends who had lots of kids long before me, said you are going to have trouble out of him, he was a strong willed baby and toddler. they were going by what he was like at approx age 1 year. Although one friend director, who had 7 great kids, said to me, he had better get used to those bars (Cot bars), I think there was some kind of meaning to that. Something has to give in the end.

  • Although I myself have not experienced a childhood like your son, I too had my differences with my parents. I have also spent a lot of time alone myself in the last few years, and I experienced some of the same issues as your son did. It has taken me a long time to work through things, but I was lucky to at least have a place to stay whilst I did.

    These bad years have given me insights into how others may be feeling in similar situations, and although I am not a professional I do find it helps me to offer help to others on here.

    I really hope your son has a chance to sort himself out too. Have faith in him. Offer him chances by all means, but above all offer him your support and respect, even if that means leaving him alone to work things out, whilst offering him food enough to live on. I would suggest you try to forget all the bad times, and remember the times when he happily ran out the house to play football, or brought his mates home to eat you out of house and home.

  • Thats for that. time is a good healer

  • Of course there is also the fact (from what you say above) that you have a little bit of adversion to authority too. Not surprising given your seargent major father. I think I am much the same. It is not easy to be the child of a mother that says 'Do as I say, not as I do". I know, my mother was the same.

  • I think you misunderstood what i meant. Im fine with authority, always was. The authorities were only trying to help and get him back into education, I just know what my son is like and knew he would rebel against it all. Even after a few weeks in one of those behavioural school, the director of education personally wrote to him saying you can now go to a mainstream school of your choice. I was ecstatic and thought he would be too. Sons reply was, its too late now, i wanted to go a while back. At that point he was 13, a teenager, a tricky age, and think he had lost all confidence to go back. He had been pushed from pillar to post, carer to carer, had to sit in the foster agency from 9-3pm daily while they looked for a suitable school, see psychologists, he had seen so many different people in the space of about a year, he had had enough, no wonder he doesnt want to see anyone like that any more.

    I never said that to him, do as i say, not as i do. All i ever wanted was for him to go to school without a big fuss, its the law. All the energy i put into getting him there, just for them to say half an hour later when I got home, we cant keep him here like this, hes not behaving, and I had to go back and get him! They should have kept him in after school for half hour or so. But he dont care for consequences, he can outlast anyone.

    I have backed off a long while ago, hes an adult of course now, just cant bare to see him in this state and its getting worse. he has started to open up which is good, but speaking of his past which he cant get out of his head. Hoping in time he will heal and yes I will always be there for him, and Ive told him I would help him with anything if he wants help.

    Hope that clears things up a bit. Hope you are doing ok yourself now

    take care

  • Hi Dogslife,

    You've had a lot of responses and I hope some of them have helped.

    I believe the best way is to find a good therapist who can make effective changes, rapidly.

    I will recommend anthonyjacquin.com - This man and his dad trained me in hypnotherapy and their work is outstanding. They are nice genuine guys and experts in the field.

    If you contact Anthony and have good results I would love to hear about it.

    I wish you all the best!

    David

  • Hi, sorry Ive been so upset and distraught, I couldnt even get myself to log in here. Thanks I will look it up. My son is adamant he wants to be left alone, Im torn between helping him and listening to him as hes no kid any more.

  • Thanks everyone for all your comments, its very hard on me and Ive been so distraught of late so much so I couldnt get myself to log on

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