OMG

Isaw the programme last night on bbc2 all i can sayis what hope have any of us got it it was dreadful !!!!!!!! oh well we are all gonna have to stick together and keep on fighting llove to all diddle xxxx

[Hidden]

I know diddle I didnt see the one on bbc2 only watched dispatches that was bad enough,what is the programme on bbc2 and i will watch it on catch up ,we will all stick together and fight for are rights,I have worked all my life for people to treat you like this its a disgrace.annexx

[bbstport]

i watched both of the programmes and i honestly dont know what you have to do or what situation you have to be in to qualify and they are still saying they do not work to targets.

belinda

[bbstport]

i watched both of the programmes and i honestly dont know what you have to do or what situation you have to be in to qualify and they are still saying they do not work to targets.

belinda

[Hidden]

Bull we all no they are working to targets.made me laugh they said docs are doing medicals.not all are some are nurses.

They must get a good wage to sleep at nite.we all are being treated like pieces of meat on a conveyor belt.

They push you to the edge.i have my appeal tomoz i dont think im gonna win.

I may have to try and go back to work.

Im not welk enough but cant survive on fresh air.

System is a joke.

[bonnielass]

Hi Diddle, hope you are okay, where has all the lovely sunshine gone?

I also watched both tv programmes and was gobsmacked at the way those people treat disabled people, there isn't any hope for us, especially when you die whilst waiting for money, i felt so sorry for that poor mans' family.

I don't know what we can do to put a stop to these bullies.

Take care and enjoy rest of your day.

Gentle Hugs

Bonnie Lass

[Lima6MCT]

I watched both and then took a closer look at the Dispatches one. The ATOS trainer/tutor is an East European Doc who's specialty isn't recognised in this country so "I didn't have much choice so I decided to love Atos and marry atos for some time, a long time now"

Tutor still does assessments but says "it's frustrating, it's toxic that's why I don't do overtime. it's specific, you like it or hate it. You get crisis every so often, at least I do"

Some quotes from the trainer include:

"We shall remember this new benefit ESA was meant to take people off the benefit."

"It's so difficult, this was specifically designed to take people off incapacity benefit"

"...so if someone has no leg but they have good hands they can sit and propel manual wheelchair they don't score anything. This is one of the toughest change. ...We are thinking about hypothetical wheelchair. Could they use a wheelchair? They don't have to have it so people are completely shocked when they get a letter and the decision maker they may phone and they may tell them 'look you score nothing, you have arthritis of both knees, I know but your hands are ok and you could mobilise in the wheelchair.'And they will say 'what the hell? The wheelchair, I have no wheelchair'... "

"If they have one problem, one frozen shoulder, one impingement syndrome, one broken elbow, one hand problem, no limb, amputation they may score a little but the problem has to be bilateral so it's almost unachievable" and when someone asks "Even if that was their dominant arm?" she responds with "Doesn't matter anymore, can you imagine? So very,very tough benefit, very tough benefit"

Dr Bicks who was filming undercover asked about the one arm, two arm scenario says that for a checkout girl "she can't just do it with one hand can she?" He is told "Well they still consider one hand" He goes on to say "But you can't work a checkout with one hand - I don't think" to which the response was "Yes, but you are not thinking about specific job, you are thinking about being able to do any job and this will be the business of personal adviser in Job Centre Plus to find a suitable job. I know it's Utopia in general. As long as you've got one finger and you can press a button, you don't score anything for manual dexterity." Dr Bicks says "You just need one finger?" and is told "I wish we could have a job just to press ... but, yes, we'll come to this in a moment"

On cancer treatments the trainer said "We are talking about chemo, only about chemo and unfortunately oral cytotoxic therapy does not count for support, that's the problem ... remember write it down" When queried she replies "that's the legislation, that's what we get from the DWP and we have to follow. Please remember, oral does not count." (DWP say they are working on improvements in this field)

Dr Bicks spoke with another trainer who had assessed someone with Prostate cancer and hadn't given them any points as she "couldn't do anything else, the same with breast cancer the hormonal treatments don't count so he was given no points. I felt very uncomfortable doing it and I didn't like doing it but I had no way of scoring him. So chemotherapy is the only time you say 'yes they are about to have something'."

ATOS say their assessments are carried out in accordance with detailed guidelines set by the DWP.

People who can lip read or use braille are considered fit for work but they don't have to be good at it, the trainer said " just to make you aware that reading Braille we don't think about fluency, it's like reading 'fire escape', 'run away', something like that simple comments, ok, the same with lip-reading, most people can lip-read like fire, these sort of comments."

Trainees were told that although DWP DMs have final say, the ATOS verdicts were usually decisive "I will emphasise that we are giving advice but the final decision belongs to the Decision Maker and I will always emphasise that you will say that to the clients just to push kind of the guilt from yourself, that's how I say because really they wait for our advice. But, officially, according to the procedure guidelines final decision is made by the Decision Makers."

The DWP DMs agree with the ATOS medics 94% of the time - what the assessors put in their reports is usually final.

On the subject of appeal tribunals the trainer said "Good thing for us is that even if you make the wrong decision because you have no evidence, you don't see xrays, you don't see ECG you just only see the person so you can be wrong but you never go to the tribunal, this is the good thing, you never go to the tribunal so, sort of, you won't be blamed."

On Targets - Government insist no explicit or implicit targets for DWP/ATOS WCA outcomes. ATOS Trainers are given a target as to the percentage going into Support Group: "Also you are being watched carefully for the rate of Support Group, if it's more than I think 12 or 13% you will be fed back, your rate is too high" When Dr Bicks asked "How do they know that only 12% need the support group?" He was told by one trainer "I don't know who set the criteria, but that's what we are being told." so went on to ask another trainer where the 12% came from and was told "DWP".

On auditing the E European trainer says "sometimes you feel awful because you can't do anything for people but that's the job you can't feel sorry and just give them the money because you feel sorry for them you will go on targeted audit, so just being looked at, checked and you will have your own mentor and they will deal with you, so you will have no real freedom giving out benefit or giving advice."

ATOS have denied having ever been given or received targets for people being assessed fit to work.

Dr Bicks worked for ATOS for 2 days & did 8 real cases - he had 4 bounced back and he was told to take points off and change his examination findings!

[Flips]

I saw it too. Looks like we need to be dead and buried before we get anything! I'm still waiting for a decision after nearly 2 months! The nurse, not doctor who assessed me was lovely, we had a nice natter about life and the bad bits. I also wrote a letter supporting my plea.

After all this time I've phoned to chase my case and to make sure the supporting letter which held a heart on sleave version of my life and fibro and explaining that I don't feel confident enough to speak about it especially to a stranger. Only to be told on the phone by various people different stories and none of them know if the supporting letter is with it! I was told that there is a 9 week backlog!

last year I decided to try and go back to work and claimed for JSA till I found something. In one ofthe interviews at the job centre whilst applying for the benefit, they told me that I didn't meet the criteria to be fit enough to work! So....what do I do? I'm not sick enough to get ESA but not well enough for JSA I ask them time and time again that is there any help for us in no mans land?

Makes me so mad AND THE SUN HAS BUGGERED OFF!! I'm off to was Jeremy Kyle n cheer myself up lol xxxxxx

[hellsbells52]

I to watched both programmes and felt sick to my stomach on how those were treated how bloody ill to you have to be before you can get ESA ? this goverment needs a good kick up their backside on how ATOS is treating genuine illness !!!!!!!!!

[colleenofminster]

I know watching those two programmes was very hard viewing but I think that they were very definitely important and supporting people like ourselves. Indeed quite a few of the cases shown have made me feel very humble and I realise that in many ways I'm a lucky lady. I have support and I have the resources to fight back. After a week of working very hard with my friend yesterday we finally finished our response to the WCA assessement, it was 35 pages long. We also added a nice letter lol, these are being sent by recorded post to ATOS direct. Also, have done a letter to my local MP and enclosed copies of all correspondence to ATOS. And have contacted CAB to get their support for when I go to appeal (which is going to happen) Also sending letters to the MP's who have started an Early Days Motion in parliament regarding these WCA's. If you do decide to put together a line by line document which addresses each part of the WCA (as we did), I would advise that a lot of what they say, you can find in your original esa50 form. However, they do change where about it comes in the form and where it is in the WCA. And they tend to change the wording a bit. So you have to be canny and carefully read all their statements. An example from my WCA is :

PAGE 10. VISION, SPEECH , HEARING - ACTIVITIY OUTCOMES

Navigation and maintaining sfety, using a guide dog or other aid if normally used (in the WCA report)

in the ESA50 form this is actually described under :

8. GETTING AROUND SAFELY

Q. Can you see to cross the road on your own.

Q. Can you get around a place that you haven't been to before without help.

My answer to both of these was it VARIES. and in the box 'additional information' I explain - 'When extremely anxious, concentration is difficult which makes being in traffic or unfamiliar places very difficult.'

Now in the WCA the assessor has put : DOES NOT APPLY

And yet she had a copy of my ESA50 form on the desk infront of her. So, having found many more examples of this throughout my assessment, I can only come to the conclusion, that the ESA50 form is not refered to at all during your assessment or in the assessor's compiling of this report.

I hope that all makes sense, just another thing to watch out and be aware of if you are putting together your own appeal.

Good luck everyone and lets all keep on with the battle !!

Colleen

[Butcher79]

I watched both programmes. The bbc2 programme said that fibro was a condition where your joints easily dislocate. Not sure where they get their info.

[colleenofminster]

Actually I thought that too, I haven't heard that before

[goldwing in reply to colleenofminster]

I thought that, its never happened to me. Fibro is muscles and nerves not actual joints, may be she had some other problem too.

[Shortnsweet54]

Hi All,

totally incandescent i can tell you. To those of us who have fallen foul of Atos this programme is so surprise...we all know how totally shambolic the whole sorry episode is.

As one lady on another site said " What is really sad is the fact that the media is keeping very quiet on this one.They are too quick to condemn us,but are very reluctant to support us."

Hmmmm wonder why....gagging springs to mind.

And as for unfeeling unsympathetic s**t Grayling, how dare he sit there and smugly judge us tell US what is best for us. oooohhhhh could go off on one about him

Take care all

Jan xx

[Brambleberry]

Yes I fell in between a rock and a hard place...i had been trying to find suitable work when my ATOS assessment occured. The job centre disabiltity team knew me and had a lot fo respect for me even asking me to help them with an open day because I was so determined to find something I could do . The reality was being a nurse with hearing problems neck and back injuries and fibro and CFS meant most things not suitable. So when I failed the Atos and read the report I could see ,lies about my drugs and seriousness of my condition and tests she had not even done on me.Gp was outraged and wrote a letter supporting me. My condition got worse and so we applied for reinstatement and then when I applied to appeal having spoken to the benefits agency who were also upset, they called and said no need for tribunal you have been reinstated...very strange...but then a miracle.. I had applied for to be a lecturer part time feeling I may be able to do it as I can walk over to people to hear them, I didnt get the job but the faculty head liked me and felt I had wasted skills aso she gave me temp work and then trained me as an NVQ/SVQ assessor and now I have worked flexi for the college for 4 yrs and not had a day off sick, because if I am sick I jsut rejig my diary! But that sort of job is gold dust...how many jobs could I do if I lost this one?

[roundthebenz]

I watched the Despatches programme and I belive that they were showing some worst case scenarios. I was assessed, I don't know if it was ATOS or not, I can't remember. I do remember that the form asked questions that were not pertinent to my Fibromyalgia and mental condition. It was can you read a magazine, can you see the television and so on. Well if I could have got a job watching TV or reading magazines that would be fine. On that basis I was deemed fit to work and my Incapacity Benefit reduced. However, I did appeal and won the case, and my Incapacity re-instated and backdated. Thankfully I have passed age 65 and no longer have to worry about that.

I do believe that there are far too many people claiming to be incapable of work that aren't. They are just lazy and have found spurious ways to 'beat the system'. It is those that should be weeded out and put back on the 'fit to work' category. My Father had a neighbour who had the classic bad back, had a Motability car etc but was capable and often seen doing heavy gardening and many tasks that you would think he wouldn't be able to do.

Over the years I have known and worked with many disabled people. A one armed man who worked a Sylvester telephone switchboard, a severely physically handicapped man who worked as an Industrial Chemist, a young girl registered blind but with some sight who worked in an Insurance Company call centre provided with a special computer monitor that she could read, so many disabilities are not an excuse for not working. I have a niece who was a Thalidomide child born with nothing below her waist. She works in IT in a major company, drives herself everywhere and lives in her own flat with special facilities like a wet room etc. I have a cousin who was born severely disabled but has her own business making jewellery and lace items etc.

But then I understand and accept that each case is individual and should be seen as such.

It's the old story, the bad apples getting everyone else a bad name.

I do hope that I don't sound controversial, I do not intend to be but do recognise that there are many who do 'swing the lead'.

[panda60 in reply to roundthebenz]

I think (?) they said that it is only a minute minority who make fraudulent claims, but they are the ones who make it into the press and lead the public into believing that we are all scroungers!

There is no reason why disabled people shouldn't work if they want to (and can find an employer who will take them on) but I think this programme underlined the despicable ways in which people who are too sick or disabled to work are treated. I am one of them!

[gizzmo]

I too watched the panorama prog and unfortunatly thought back to the medical at atos and I couldn't do what the girl with F.M. did with my arms and not sure it gave a true rendition of how most of us are on a daily basis as at the end it showed her being helped back to work,the whole programme made me and my husband fuming especially for that poor man who died of heart failure.These people see you for 20mins and make decisions on targets ,do any of them really know what they're talking about,as I said in my defense at my D.L.A. appeal how can an atos person make a decision on my health and condition if Doctors didn't know what I had for 3yrs..Fuming for all of us fighting and having to spend more time appealing than concentrating on our health and ways to improve our quality of life.

big hugs to all xxx

[marzy]

I am in the lucky stage of still being able to manage a full time job as I work from home and my line manager has been really understanding. Having watched the programme last night of how the severely ill are treated made me very sad and angry that people that are unwell are made to feel so low and treated so badly.

Many of you on this site have described your individual battles with benefits. Keep tying and never feel ashamed. None of us expected to end up with this condition and one day hopefully, it will receive the recognition it deserves as a life changing chronic long term disability and not be seen as some clever scam (as someone described it to me!!!)

xx

[roundthebenz]

The questions are a bit loaded. Like can you walk a distance or stand or do other things. I had to answer yes as I could. However, I couldn't do lots of things on a full time basis. I would get very fatigued after an hour or so, less quite often.

[colleenofminster]

Can i just say roundthenbenz that I do understand your points and if someone could find me an employer who would be considerate patient and kind enough to give me work and put up with the times when I am too unwell to come to work and also the fact that the work I can do would be limited and only for a short time, oh and pay me enough money so that I dont have to suffer with poverty then that would be truly wonderful . See that is the problem isnt it, its all very well saying we can work etc but please tell us where we are going to get a job that will accommodate our disabilities. Its lovely that you know so many people who have severe disabilities and have found employment with compassionate employers, unfortunately they are the exception that proves the rule. Because most of us will not find such employers. I myself work as an invigilator very part time and it is under the heading of Permitted Work with the full support of my GP and Mental Health team but if ATOS carry on with their persecuting of me then I wont be able to continue doing that work as it is very very part time and most definitely does not pay enough for me to survive on. So I am trying to help myself and have a useful role in society however ATOS are trying their best to take even that away from me.

[Hidden]

I'm with caroline52, It is the one's who shouldn't be getting these benefits who make it bad for the genuinely ill people.

roundthebenz --- If I just had the stiffness then maybe yes I could work, but I'm in constant pain as well. despite pain killers all the time.

So as I understood the programme as my feet, knees, hips, and back are bad, I could still work say at a checkout, however as my neck, shoulders, elbows, wrists, and hands are bad, and I have irritable bowel, and sometime irritable bladder, (but that lady was in a wheel chair and needed her husband to help her at the bathroom, but was deemed fit for work, until her appeal), so does that make me fit for work? I have arthritis, fibro, and diabetes, but I'm extremely worried after seeing both these programme's.

[lynnh]

Some of the cases highlighted were horrendous and the Fibro girl was not very helpful, however, both programmes merely confirmed what we all know, that the system is a joke. It is supposed to catch those fraudulently claiming but owing to the amount of cases highlighted in the papers etc. it obviously isn't working on that front. It is supposed to be helping those that genuinely need help but there are plenty of us on this site who know that is not the case. I was shouting at the TV when Grayson came on, he hasn't got a clue. The only bright spot was the support guy (sorry cant remember his official title) who said he won 80-90% of his cases. As it has also been reported that claims supported by the CAB have a 70% chance of winning these figures are going a long way to prove the system doesn't work. Oh and I loved the way ATOS repeatedly passed the blame on to the DWP too. My conclusion is Keep up the fight but make sure you have a support body on your side xx

[bertie121]

a few more comments on this subject here fibroaction.healthunlocked....

[chilli50]

Hi lynnh

I think his name was Neil Bateman? He is going to be overwhelmed with the amount of people wanting his help!

Love and huggles

Chilli xxx