Dentistry and chronic pain: I found... - Fibromyalgia Acti...

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Dentistry and chronic pain

mhigton
mhigton

I found this fascinating article online which I thought I'd share. It is very similar to my current experience. arthritis-cure.co.uk/my-rhe...

83 Replies
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desquinn
desquinnAdministrator

this does not seem to relate to fibro in any way. Apart from a potential differential.

Mydexter
Mydexter
in reply to desquinn

Yes , and I think this has been posted before 🤔

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Mydexter

I haven't posted this actual article before...I only found it today but I did make a similar post under a similar heading talking about how my 'fibromyalgia' was in fact the consequence of a serious dental infection. It is of course quite possible that some one else has posted this elsewhere and that's where you have seen it. Sorry for boring you :-)

Mydexter
Mydexter
in reply to mhigton

So a dental infection causes fibromyalgia and arthritis , that's very interesting🤔

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Mydexter

If you google 'dental infection & joint pain' I think you will discover that there is a link between arthiritis, joint pain and dental infections. In what is the latest installment in a continuing saga (and this is gross I'm sorry). I absolutely, definitely have a dental infection and on Saturday something burst in my mouth and I spat out a quantity of blood and pus. I clearly swallowed some too. By Sunday I couldn't walk. Knees, toes, ankles, even my fingers hurt lie hell.

As far as I know there is no link between fibro and dental work per se. What I am suggesting though is that there is potentially more people out there, like me and the guy who wrote that article who have carried an infection for years and been wrongly diagnosed

Zoonie
Zoonie
in reply to mhigton

Considering where the infection was it’s quite likely that it could have been caused by Staphylococcus aureus, this being the case if you swallowed it and no treatment was given it could explain your illness. Staphylococcus aureus Is known to be very serious if it gets into your bloodstream, it can give rise to very serious illnesses including your immune system turning against itself. Have you actually been given a diagnosis yet?

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Zoonie

Mine is a long and complicated story but as far as I know the specific bacteria affecting me currently has not been given a name. Certainly if it has it has not been shared with me. What I can tell you is that I am scared witless tonight. I am sweating, shaking and then feeling deathly cold. I am sooo dizzy and confused and everything hurts. I have been really unhappy with my dentist and see a new one for the first time on Thursday and don't get me started on the 111 service !!

I'm not in a good place tonight for sure but be assured I have been researching as best I can and have a good idea of what is going on. My problem is in getting someone to act effectively to treat it.

Princess60
Princess60
in reply to mhigton

infections can make fibro worse coz i know from my experiences.fibro does indeed exist and you can get loads of other things that go with it.if it didnt exist why do they keep doing research and trying to find medications that can help

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to desquinn

On the face of it it doesn't does it but you see I was wrongly diagnosed with fibromyalgia approximately 5 years ago. It has recently been established that all of my symptoms including chronic joint pain are all linked to a serious dental infection. I bet I am not the only one!

Painny
Painny
in reply to mhigton

It is so strange for m3 when I had inflammation in my gum and could not eat for a week they associated that with Fibromyalgia. The dentist did not give me anything except using a salty water ...

Fibromyalgia is a mysterious illness. 🧐🥰

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Painny

Once I had been given the fibro diagnosis everything that happened to me afterwards was put down to that. I found that extremely troubling and was convinced they were missing stuff and as it turns out I was right. This dental infection is affecting my knees, toes, hips, lower back, hands/fingers. It's a nightmare!

Painny
Painny
in reply to mhigton

Goodness me you turned out to be right.

I went to a lecture recently where a professor specialising in brain told us there is a close connection between gum/ dental hygiene and the brain, more than any other parts of organs. So she highly recommended a healthy gum/ teeth to avoid future mishap in the brain especially for older generation. So....she was right 🤓

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Painny

Where did you attend that lecture please? Do you remember the name of the lecturer. I would love to know more about this you see.

Painny
Painny
in reply to mhigton

Sure, I will pm you the name as I cannot remember. last week she was on BBC

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Painny

I have SOOOO got to track this down...Radio 4?

Mydexter
Mydexter
in reply to Painny

So now fibro is a brain disease then 🤔

Painny
Painny
in reply to Mydexter

This is my belief, it’s the disorientation of the brain, central nervous system, I read a lot about this con (condition) that ruined my life 😢🤯

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Painny

I don't believe fibro exists to be honest. It is my firm belief that it is the medical equivalent of being filed under miscellaneous. I think that everyone here has serious medical issues but the GPs etc haven't established what they are and so they tell us it's fibro. I know many medical professionals who also seriously question the validity of a fibro diagnosis. They were definitely wrong in my case and for once I'm glad that I'm an arrogant SOB who believes I can't be wrong and stuck to my guns.

Painny
Painny
in reply to mhigton

Everything is open to debate, that’s my personal view

She is a Professor of the brain and a leading cognitive neuropsychologist and regular contributor to Radio 4. She runs regular talks for age U.K. and recently on telly, only for a few mins though. I had a chat with her about fibromyalgia. She gave me a good insight. May be FMA UK get her involved in publicity. Just a thought 🤔

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Painny

I really have to track this woman down. I have read about a supposed link between dental health and Alzheimers myself. Something to do with plaque if I remember correctly?

Painny
Painny
in reply to mhigton

Ring Radio 4 to put you in touch with her. I have given my details to her for future research. She is good, it’s alway good to hear the brain function from a scientist point of view. Good luck 😉

Zoonie
Zoonie
in reply to mhigton

It’s Catherine Loveday HTH

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Zoonie

Bless you!!

ShelWhitt
ShelWhitt
in reply to mhigton

I agree with you. Been fighting now for almost 40 years to discover what is wrong. Gradually getting worse all the time. Now in a really bad way. Actually diagnosed with fibromyalgia 10 years ago after spending two years seeing a rheumatologist , who diagnosed polymyalgia first, then fibro. I have always thought this was too easy a diagnosis and that something else was at the root of my problems, but have never managed to get past the brick wall. I am currently starting to research my thyroid problems, to see if that could be to blame, but to be honest am not hopeful, as there seems to be so many other things cropping up that it could be, and I can't possibly check out them allhear This is ringing bells because I am definitely having problems with my brain, but no one seems to hear what I am saying. By no one I mean the doctors or family! They all regard me as a hypochondriac.It is frightening. Like you, I am so angry and upset because whatever it is has ruined my life.

i know how you feel its a nightmare.people think you are imagining it all dont they.well wish they had it for 15years like me you know your own body.i am a lot worse now its the waiting game with nhs all the time to get to see a consultant.i waited 9 months for physio in the meantime went to another pain clinicxxx

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator
in reply to mhigton

Seems strange if you do not think fibromyalgia exists to come on to a fibro support site and tell them it does not exist. It is very difficult to extrapolate from one persons experience to a larger population group.

If we asked how many people on this site have had a broken limb then I am very sure we would have a correlation but it would be a meaningless one. At best it is a hypothesis but the link to another condition rather than fibro speaks to you grasping for answers in locations that are not related.

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to desquinn

The reason I became a member here is that I was told I had fibro and I kinda believed it, right up until the point when my dental infections were identified and treated and many of my symptoms cleared up pretty much overnight. Had I not had that dental treatment I would still grudgingly accept I have a condition that they call fibromyalgia and I would still be walking around harbouring a potentially lethal infection.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator
in reply to mhigton

Can understand the becoming a member but after you have come to the conclusion you do not have fibro you are coming on here to say you do not believe in it. That's the bit I find puzzling as there are plenty here that get the lack of belief from others and are confident in the diagnosis they have.

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to desquinn

My motivation is this: For 5 years at least I suffered chronic pain attributed to fibromyalgia and it wasn't. It was as stated a potentially fatal dental infection which ultimately was identified quite by chance. I was lucky. Potentially then there are more contributors/members here who could be in the same position that I was, and who need dental intervention before it's too late. One thing I haven't included thus far in this thread but will now is that my dentist (a small practice in Macclesfield) has told me of 4 other similar cases to me that she has treated and I think then it is important to raise awareness. The chronic pain some of the people here suffer, which is explained away by their fibro diagnosis could be masking something entirely different and potentially dangerous. My aim in posting is to get people thinking and asking questions.

Although I have stated here that I do not personally believe in the existence of fibromyalgia I cannot wholly rule out it's existence or the possibility that I might be mistaken and actually have the condition after all. So I continue to read, research and share.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator
in reply to mhigton

thank you for the explanation and it is something I have spoken about previously that it is obvious that with our diagnostic criteria, difficulty in obtaining a diagnosis, and the conditions with similar presentations that there will be misdiagnoses. This is the same as there are plenty of people that have not been diagnoses or misdiagnosed with something else.

But there are hundreds of research studies just around the origin and foundation of fibro including brain scans and studies that rule out viral cause or other causations. The last 50 years from before the origin of the name fibromyalgia by Hench in 76 to today has seen so much foundational research that we are beyond the time where the dimissing of the condition is reasonable. A personal misdiagnosis perhaps but undermining others diagnosis is not helpful to them when they are being underwhelmed by HCPs.

Ajay575
Ajay575
in reply to desquinn

No sure if relevant, bit in the scottish sun today about self diagnosis of fibromyalgia and take to docs ,and bit about jo guest

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator
in reply to Ajay575

thanks Ajay575 will need to see if I can get a hold of it. Been a while since Jo has been mentioned and even longer since we got her onto the This Morning show with Dr Chris. Lovely lady that was affected severely by fibro.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator
in reply to desquinn

article can be found here: thesun.co.uk/fabulous/10892...

usual salacious Sun but article is okay.

p.s. Fibro fog is brilliant...... Can spell long words with ease but fell over the word usual!!!!!!

Ajay575
Ajay575
in reply to desquinn

It was actually a long article today 05 ,05,2021 ,and mentioned a blood test as well from america

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator
in reply to Ajay575

this one I am guessing: thesun.co.uk/fabulous/10897...

Ajay575
Ajay575
in reply to desquinn

Yeh that's the one

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator
in reply to Ajay575

just read it and the fibrowarriors review of it. The "test" is not going to help anyone IMO and not a step in the right direction. Its using tender points which are depreciated and its far too simplistic and without context. A test like this needs a lot of context.

Ajay575
Ajay575
in reply to desquinn

was not sure keep reading it ,a knew you would know by reading it ,that's how I mentioned it with the self diagnosis etc ,least fibromyalgia got some good publicity ,thanks for clarification etc

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator
in reply to Ajay575

normally we catch articles that go up but have missed both of these. I think the home test may be from a while ago due to the tender points. The FIQR test is the one most researchers will use and is validated against earlier ones.

Always worth posting about articles so we can republish them on social media if we have not already.

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to desquinn

Thanks for sharing that, it's interesting!

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to desquinn

It was absolutely not my intention to undermine anything. I just want to encourage people to ask questions and not take everything at face value; to consider other important possibilities and not be fobbed off by lazy medics who want to pin everything on one suspect.

In my case I have emphatically established that stuff they told me was due to FMA is at least in part attributable to actual, definable conditions, OA and dental. That is a huge swathe of my symptoms accounted for and fibro ruled out. I still have stuff outstanding (stuff=symptoms) that I can't account for and I accept that in the end FMA might be a valid diagnosis but I am becoming increasingly sceptical about that.

ShelWhitt
ShelWhitt
in reply to mhigton

II think I agree with you but wish I didn't. I have never really accepted fibromyalgya as a diagnosis, I am still trying to find the root cause of all my problems, but it is a thankless task so far. So may be they are right after all.

first thought, try boosting your gut biota (look at vagus nerve - gut biome - pain connection) with pre- and pro-biotics.

am off to see gp. typing with left hand as have managed to isolate pain to something other than FM now that i have stopped taking all meds.

we are one body... that is all connected...

once i have learned the art of computer dictation, i'll be back!

hugs til then, dee x

Bijouvert
Bijouvert
in reply to mhigton

I'm so glad you posted the info, thanks - and it's something I'll definitely look into. All my symptoms started after disastrous root canal work and constant infections for the following 2 years. It may be a coincidence but well worth a closer look. So sorry to hear of your current situation and good luck with everything.

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Bijouvert

And that's exactly why I posted. I know unequivocally that many of my supposed fibro symptoms have cleared up since my dental infection(s) were addressed. I am still having problems with my teeth but hopefully that is going to get sorted out over the next day or two but lots of other aspects of my chronic pain have cleared up. It is food for thought I think.

Princess60
Princess60
in reply to desquinn

well i had a chest infection and mine went worse,so you just never know do you

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator
in reply to Princess60

feeling worse when something else is attacking / weakening your body is natural and to be expected. Stress makes fibro worse for a lot of people. When someone with type 1 diabetes gets an infection then their control will get worse and they may have swings in BM numbers and they will have negative effects as a result.

However, the infection is not causing the diabetes or directly affecting it. Its more that your bodies equilibrium is upset and the balance is knocked off and negative effects result. With fibro there are a number of things to maintain or improve our balance and therefore improve our fibro symptoms. But there are a number of things we can do wrong or happen to us to make our symptoms worse.

Princess60
Princess60
in reply to desquinn

yea its true my anxiety and depression makes mine worse.i am border line for type 2 diabetes and dont think its helping me.i have loads of things wrong with me that i never had before i got fibro.i have been told i have a stiff spine and mine at moment is terrible any movement kills me.dr at pain clinic thinks i could have a neuorology problem.i wouldnt care i paid 3years ago to see one and my lumbar puncture was ok but my brain scan showed some white matter down to the level of t5 so i guess i will have to wait to see what happens when i get my nhs appt.

My friend showed me an article on line last year that claims it is mainly teeth that have had root canal treatment which are not fully cleaned "Can" release toxins into the body which can cause others diseases.

I'm certainly with you on this one mhigton and it is a very eye opening and interesting topic so....not boring at all!!

Esradral
Esradral
in reply to Poppysunn

I have had multiple tooth abscess over the years and the last one only two months ago absolutely floored me. The dentist gave me antibiotics to clear it and then wanted to do a root canal, I insisted on removal as I could not bear the thought of a recurrence. I wonder if there really is a link?

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Esradral

I firmly believe that there is. Certainly in my case. If my dentist said he was going to take all of my teeth right now I would be a very happy bunny because I am so fed up of it. Since dental treatment (not yet completed), many of my supposed fibro symptoms have cleared up completely.

ANY infection in your body can reek havoc on your body and cause other diseases. Any infection in the mouth can cause bacteria to get into your blood stream. This is why it is so important to practice good oral hygiene, brush teeth at least twice daily, floss teeth daily and get regular teeth cleanings. If a root canal is not properly executed then yes, just like any other infection and especially infections in your mouth, if not corrected, that infection can cause all sorts of health problems.

Its linked to rheumatoid not osteo arthritis ?

Hisue
Hisue
in reply to Vivalaviv

Don’t know about link with osteoporosis but there is a strong link between dental infections & RA. See John Hopkins University website.

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Vivalaviv

I think there is a strong link to RA, I have certainly read that in several places. I am not linking it to OA...I do have that, proven by an MRI scan but my infection and the OA have existed and developed quite independantly of each other as far as I can tell. I expect then that I will still have symptoms from OA long after my last molar has found it's way into the dentist's trash can.

Neither are directly related to an oral infection. Most people do not let a tooth ache go to the point of where is turns into an infection. They simply can't stand the pain, so they go to the dentist and get referred to an endodontist to get a root canal (Never let a general dentist try to do a root canal on you! They are not qualified to do root canals and don't have the digital microscope that is required to do a root canal correctly.). So many root canals done by general dentists fail. Then the patient has to go see a specialist, an endodontist, which they should have been sent to in the first place.).

Having a tooth root die and then having a root canal in order to save the tooth does not cause rheumatoid arthritis. A root canal that is not done correctly that causes infection could possibly indirectly contribute to RA if Rheumatoid arthritis could possibly be indirectly related if an oral infection was severe enough and left untreated for long enough that it causes the immune system to malfunction. Rheumatoid arthritis is an autoimmune disease where your immune system mistakenly attacks healthy tissue. If you have enough of any type of infection (bacterial, fungal, parasitic), your immune system can become "broken" and wrongly attack the body instead of a foreign invader. There are many types of arthritis besides rheumatoid and osteo. Sometimes when there is an infection somewhere in the body (oral or elsewhere), joints react into what is called "reactive arthritis". This is in response to an infection and can be crippling. Once the infection is resolved, the pain and swelling typically goes away. Osteoarthritis is caused by wear and tear, not by an infection or by an autoimmune response. There are several other types of inflammatory and erosive arthritis that are autoimmune or in response to another health problem.

I've just had a read of this article. Very interesting, thank you for sharing.😊

My pleasure :-)

This can be true of any infection in the body. Any type of infection in your bloodstream (untreated gum or tooth root infections can cause bacteremia, infection of the blood, and also heart problems or death) can cause reactive arthritis and painful inflammation throughout the body. For this to happen, ignoring basic proper dental hygiene would have to occur over a long period of time. This is why good dental hygiene and preventative oral care is so important. Brush teeth a minimum of twice daily. Floss daily. Get regular dental cleanings. 6 month dental cleanings are ideal, if not, every year. If periodontal disease is present, this can be improved and in some cases reversed if proper perio care is followed.

If it was true that such infections could cause fibromyalgia, someone would have to ignore proper dental hygiene for a very long time for it to develop into a periodontal (gum) or endodontic (tooth rooth) infection that evolves into reactive arthritis or painful inflammatory muscle and tissue. Aside from the signs and symptoms occurring in their mouth and breath, they'd also have to ignore the physical signs of reactive arthritis and painful inflammation for a very long time for this to become chronic. Oral infections would cause pain, as does reactive arthritis and painful inflammation. Someone would have to ignore all of their over all health and pain for a very long time for this to develop into a systemic infection.

"Someone would have to ignore all of their over all health and pain for a very long time for this to develop into a systemic infection."

And that is broadly what happened. For roughly 5 years, possibly more I have been telling my doctor I have pain in my jaw, my ear, my neck etc etc all classic tell-tale signs of a dental problem and they have told me that it was due to my fibro, my OA...whatever. I'd take the Ibuprofen/Paracetamol they advised and soldier on.

It was only a chance conversation with my dentist that led to the discovery of my 'real' problem and that really summarises the whole point of my contribution here.

Please forgive me. I am still not understanding. The biggest questions are did you receive treatment, is the infection gone and are you all better now?

Can you tell us more about the type of infection and the specifics of this situation? Too many details are missing and I'm probably not alone in wanting to understand your story. An oral infection going undetected 5 years would have obvious signs. Were there no symptoms that you had a "dental infection". Was this a perio or an endo infection? There are no general dental infections but there are many oral structures and many types of infections that could occur in each structure. Each type of infection has it's own symptoms and treatment.

During this 5 year period of no treatment, surely you had basic blood tests done, like a comprehensive metabolic panel and a complete blood count? 5 years without those two baseline labs would be a very long time considering you had symptoms and you saw doctors. A long term infection would show up on routine, basic blood work. Were you not brushing your teeth twice a day, not flossing and not practicing other good oral hygiene for 5 years? You hadn't seen a dentist for 5 years? Depending upon the type of infection in your mouth, you'd either be in excruciating pain and that would lead you to seeking dental care to fix the problem, or you'd have such outwardly obvious signs of infection, including infectious breath, that that would lead you to a dentist.

Most importantly, what type of dental infection was this? What symptoms did you have a the location of the infection? Which part of the jaw and what sort of pain? Where in the neck was the pain? Were lymph nodes enlarged? Jaw, ear and neck pain are not classic tell-tale signs of of dental problems. Pain in these areas certainly can be signs of many other issues. Was this a perio or endo infection? Perio is soft supporting tissues and related bone to a degree. Endo related to dental pulp of the tooth root, related nerves and also bone to a degree. A perio infection would exhibit obvious outwardly visible signs, and sensual signs, well in advance of ever causing referred pain elsewhere. A perio infection left untreated even a short period of time causes bad breath. 5 years of no treatment would result in dramatic consequences in gums, looseness of teeth, and bad breath. An endo infection would be the same. Endo problems cannot be left untreated for 5 years, otherwise there would also be dramatic consequences. A necrotic root causes severe pain and can cause foul breath. Left untreated, it can turn into a root abscess. This is only corrected surgically through either a root canal or apicoectomy (accessing tooth root by doing gum resection to access the root and abscess). Root abscesses left untreated with abscess out the side of the face and are then addressed through oral surgery. Any type of oral infection results in unpleasant, infectious smelling breath. That is often a first sign that something unhealthy is going on in the mouth. 5 years of growing oral infection.

After the 5 years of being undiscovered and untreated, was the bacteria cultured so the attending physician would know how to treat it? What sort of treatment was used to eliminate the infection, and for how long?

If I or anyone else had been able to read the signs they were there. The pain, bad breath etc etc but I do not as a rule discuss my general health with my dentist or my dental health with my doctor. In addition my visits to the dentists had hitherto been sporadic. That's all changed now, tomorrow I see my dentist for the 13th time since September!

It is important to note in this narrative that I am a smoker and that absolutely doesn't help.

So one morning last September I was brushing my teeth and when I spat there was something which looked grey in colour amidst the toothpaste followed by a quantity of blood and so I went to the dentist.

She identified a tooth in my lower jaw as being the problem. It was loose and as I was grinding in the night it was cutting into my gum and thus causing an infection. She removed it, there was some discharge and afterwards for a day or two. I felt so much better in so many ways. I no longer needed to sleep 15 hours a day, lots of aches and pains cleared up. I felt like a new bloke.

4 weeks later I was feeling really ill again and had gone into reverse. I went back to see her and I told her I thought there was some infection present. We actually argued about it and some where in that dialogue I told her about the pain in my ear and that is when she had her eureka moment. She took a further X-Ray and identified a pocket of pus in my upper left jaw and also an anomaly in the jaw on the site of an historical extraction. Apparently the dentist had left something behind and she suggested that was causing the infection.

She cut open my gum, removed the offending piece of material before stitching me back up again and then removed 2 further teeth to enable the infection to drain.

Since then I had been feeling so much better...had!!

Over the last few weeks I have started to get a lot of pain on the site of the September extraction, the gum has been swollen and on Saturday just gone, I again spat a load of crap and blood after brushing. I am shivering, shaking, dizzy and feeling rather like I have flu. I actually spent last night in Macclesfield hospital and established that the infection has remained local because it didn't show up in the blood work they did. The doctor I saw confirmed that the gum is inflamed on the lower left side and was happy to discharge me this morning, secure in the knowledge that I am booked into the dentist first thing tomorrow (Thursday)

Despite this set back many of the symptoms I was experiencing have either gone or are greatly diminished. What is left is still very unpleasant and I am not in a good place tonight but I am comforted by the knowledge that I am finally on the right track.

If it isn't apparent by now my doctor claiming that I had FMA has completely hindered my treatment. They told me I was bound to feel like crap because of FMA and so when I did I thought I knew what was going on, accepted my doctors verdict and just soldiered on thinking that what I was going through was the new normal for me in the circumstances.

I hope that clears up at least some of your questions. I think I have missed some and I do apologise if so. If there is anything specific you want me to address please ask but I have reached the full extent of my stamina tonight and I feel like crap

PS I will never forgive you for making me type this much under the circumstances :-)

Hello Mhighton! Oh no! Please forgive me, pretty please! 😉 Thank you for sharing your story. It all makes sense now. I am very concerned that you are feeling so poorly even though you were told the infection is localized.

To be honest with you, it sounds like it could be a bit more than that. Hopefully they started you on prophylactic antibiotics until you could see the dentist? I cannot believe that the dentist who diagnosed the abscess didn’t do more to treat the infection and put you on antibiotics then. Considering the length of time you’ve been ill, the series of events, and all that you e been through, a good course of antibiotics is usually prescribed. It sounds like you’ve had an abscess for some time, as well as probably bone.

You have had a very rough 5 years by the sound of it! What a long and painful experience! Going to the dentist for the 13th time since September??? 😳😳😳 You still have an unresolved abscess after all those dental appointments? What on earth are they doing to you when you’ve gone there almost every week since September? Whoever is in charge of your case at that dental practice does not know how to treat an abscess.

Healthcare practitioners are supposed to be part of a team that work together in various capacities to be proactive in your healthcare. All body parts are all connected even if indirectly. Dentists should be routinely inspecting your tongue for signs of health issues, including oral cancer. Doctors also inspect your mouth and throat. If they’d have known about your abscesses and tooth loss, they could have guided you to help and escalated a referral to a dentist who could treated the infection and helped to save your teeth. I hope the dentist tomorrow treats you really well, resolves the infection, you feel like your old self very soon, and you never have to go back to the dentist for this issue.

I have had no anti-biotics whatsoever and as far as I know there has not been a concerted effort to identify the specific bacteria responsible.

I don't know where in the world you are but I am in the Derbyshire Peak District area of the UK. It is easier to get heroin than anti-biotics here.

I'm struggling to concentrate tonight but there was something you wrote about inflammatory responses that I must revisit. My joints, fingers, toes and hips are on fire and muscles in my lower back keep going into spasm. It's like being kicked or punched in the back every time I move.

Depending on how things go tomorrow I might have a few Q's I would welcome your ideas on if possible?

Thank you for your good wishes

Mike

Hello Mhigton. You are very welcome. Mike, I am very concerned about you!

Adding this on after I read your symptoms again: Wait a second!!, Feels like you’ve been punched in the back? Could you have a kidney infection?? Now I’m really wondering. See in the next paragraph where I mention it. It might be a good idea to go to a hospital, pee in a cup, have them do a complete urinalysis AND culture.

The symptoms joint and muscle symptoms you listed are now even more concerning. In your earlier posts when I first read your symptoms, my first thought was a major systemic infection. If you’ve ever had a kidney infection, which can become a major and even deadly infection, your symptoms are similar. It is always a concern once joints and organs are also effected. I think you mentioned somewhere having chills and aches? These are all signs of a potentially very serious infection brewing. Do you have a thermometer so you can monitor your temperature? Aside from high temps indicating fever and serious illness, possible to have a lower than possible temperature when having an infection.

This really angers me that you have diagnostics revealing that you have an abscess and have a long history of having this infection, yet no one have cultured that bacteria, put you on a broad spectrum antibiotic until the results come in. Have your symptoms changed or increased in the last two days? Is struggling to concentrate a new symptom?

With that level of infection in your mouth and all of your symptoms, if the right tests were done something should have shown up on your bloodwork. Do you know what tests they did and do you have the results? I have to wonder if you should wait until tomorrow to be seen by a doctor. I don’t want to alarm you but this could be an emergency situation.

I have an update for you following my trip to the dentist today. I have been given Metronidazole 400mg and been referred to an oral surgeon. I have taken the first one earlier and no I didn't wash it down with Chardonnay or JD so don't panic :-) I haven't got much more to add to that except that I still have some pretty nasty symptoms (hardly surprising). I have a follow up appointment with the dentist which I think is on 3rd of March but I obviously have the option to get an emergency appointment if required in the meantime.

I'm not totally happy with this treatment plan especially since I won't see the oral surgeon for some time as far as I can tell (24 weeks seems to be what to expect) Anyway that's were I am up to. Thoughts?

Hi Mhigton. Ok. So no Chardonnay or JD, but how about Mad Dog? :-P (Do you have Mad Dog over there?).

All they did is throw some antibiotics at you? No current x-rays to see how much the infection has grown and exact location, or were x-rays last week? Even so, current x-rays are usually taken. No blood tests? Did you ask for a culture of your oral bacteria and also a urinalysis? How many metronidazole per day and for how many days? It's just metro by itself, nothing in addition? The problem with not doing a culture on your oral bacteria and not doing a urinalysis is that if it hasn't been determined that your bacteria is responsive to metronidazole, it won't be effective. If it's the wrong antibiotic, metro might subdue the bacteria and the infection for awhile, or it might not even improve your symptoms. Then the infection will come raging back, stronger than ever.

Is this a real dentist or one of those fake ones who poses as a dentist, mistreats patients, and you later read about who has a lawsuit for malpractice? He should know that antibiotics will not clear up a tooth abscess, especially if it's in your jaw bone (I believe you mentioned something about bone?). All of the necrotic or dead tissue (where ever it's located in gums, tooth root, bone) must be removed. There is a reason that a root canal is not just treated with antibiotics. The necrotic tissue must be removed. You have an abscess, which is much worse than necrotic tooth roots. Not removing the cause of the abscess and surrounding dead tissue and throwing antibiotics at it can encapsulate, or wall off the infection. You might temporarily feel better, or maybe not at all. The infection will come back and your body will try again to expel the necrotic tissue and bone. How about getting a second opinion?

He did take an X-Ray of the affected area but that is all besides a visual inspection. So yes basically he has just thrown antibiotics at it and made the referral to an oral surgeon. I have a 5 day supply, 15 tablets.

I've never heard of Mad Dog but we may have it here. I am not a big drinker.

I'm not happy with my situation at all and especially noting your remarks now.

He is a bona fide NHS dentist and as such subject to strict regulation.

I think some of the procedures and protocols you describe are above his pay grade hence the referral to an oral surgeon. A dentist at his level is basically just slightly better than a first aider but I don't have a direct route to more accomplished treatment, it's how it works here. I have to get that referral and then there is a waiting list. I don't know if there is any kind of triage system in place that will enable me to get seen sooner but I will stay on top of it and pester them as necessary.

I'm scared!

I need your advice again if you would be so kind? I now have just 4 of the 15 antibiotics I was prescribed which means that I have enough for today (Monday) and I take the final one Tuesday morning. They have taken the edge off of it for sure, the swelling in my gum is significantly reduced, I am not as fatigued and feel more alert generally. My temperature is more stable and I am not shaking as much. Peripheral symptoms like the joint pains are 80-90% down on what they were and I am not as confused. The pain in my ear is 75% improved

BUT

I still have significant facial pain and I am feeling inappropriately hot and cold still at some times of the day (before the pills it was constant)and my palms are still exceptionally sweaty. My tummy is very upset but I think that is to be expected on these pills? I still have some dizziness albeit reduced by about 60% on pre pill levels. I keep getting sporadic bursts of a foul bitter taste in my mouth. The pain/symptoms increase significantly when I have been prone for a couple of hours

Would you have expected better by now? Do I need a Plan B and if so what form do you think it should take?

Best wishes

M

Hi Mhigton. Mike, I am going to have to be blunt here and throughout this post. I said before that I was very concerned about you. Well, now I am even more concerned! This is an urgent situation that if you continue to receive the wrong medical care with this abscess and necrotic bone in your jaw, you are risking your life. I guess I didn't make this point clear in my previous responses, and I apologize that I did not. I am sad to say that this is all normal and to be expected when a tooth abscess and necrotic bone are not treated properly. You didn't really expect that a few days of some random antibiotics would cure your abscess and necrotic tissue, did you? Like I said before, throwing antibiotics at you would either temporarily dampen your symptoms, or it would do nothing. I followed that up with saying that then once you are off the antibiotics, your infection will be even worse. Once you are off antibiotics you will become even more sick from this systemic infection than you currently are. Of course you still have puss, dead tissue and a foul taste in your mouth. The infection hasn't gone anywhere. It is still there. And of course you still have many symptoms of a serious infection, because you still have a very serious infection. As I explained in a previous message, there is only one way to treat a tooth abscess, and it's not throwing random antibiotics at it. Those doctors have completely mismanaged your tooth abscess. Their treatment will not cure your infection. The infection will of course come raging back with a vengeance once you are completely off antibiotics because the abscess and necrotic tissue were not addressed and they are still there. What they did with you is exactly how antibiotic resistance starts: don't remove the dead tissue, don't culture the bacteria and just throw some random antibiotic in a random dose at the patient.

When on antibiotics, you should always also take a potent multi species probiotic a few hours away from taking antibiotics and a few hours before you next antibiotic dose. Are you taking a probiotic? Antibiotics disrupt and deplete the healthy flora in your GI tract and cause digestive disturbance. Probiotics help to replenish your body with healthy flora. If you are not currently on a probiotic, if you don't get on one right away to replenish the healthy flora in your gut, this can lead to development of yeast (candida) overgrowth in your mouth or GI tract. If you already have a white coating on your tongue, you already have candida overgrowth. Candida feeds on sugar, so eating any sugar will make the problem worse. Probiotics will not cure oral candida. It is treated with Nystatin oral suspension, 5 ml swished and swallowed four times a day. Nystatin does a great job at curing a candida infection.

No. I would not expect that you would feel better by now. Antibiotics do not cure a tooth abscess and necrotic bone. There is only one way to cure all of that. An abscess must be drained and debrided, both hard and soft tissue. If there is a necrotic tooth root, that dead tissue must be removed via root canal.

Aside from not draining the abscess and removing all the dead tissue in your mouth and jaw, those doctors also gave you the wrong antibiotic. The first line antibiotic of choice used by dentists and endodontists (root canal specialists) in both Europe and the US is penicillin PK and amoxicillin. Clindamycin is used if there is a known hypersensitivity to penicillin drugs. Metronidazole is not commonly used and is never the first choice of antibiotic, but then again, abscesses are always drained and necrotic tissue is always thoroughly removed, and THEN the patient is given the right antibiotics. IF Metronidazole is ever used, it is 500-750 mg's every 8 hours, not the 400 mg that they gave you. So not only is it the wrong antibiotic, but it is also too low of a dose. I am sorry to say that it is no surprise that you are not feeling well.

Plan B: the "treatment" they gave you is obviously not working. With the doctors mismanagement, you could easily be heading towards sepsis. People do become hospitalized due to having a systemic infection caused by oral abscess. They also get sepsis, lose limbs, and die. You need to see an oral surgeon pronto. Not in two months. Not in a month. Not next week. Not in a few days. Tomorrow. Otherwise check yourself into a hospital TONIGHT. There is already a good chance that you might already be in need of IV antibiotics. Until you have that abscess drained and all of the necrotic tissue debrided from you mouth and jaw, you could easily be at risk of dying from this systemic infection. Those are the cold hard facts. There was no other way to say it besides being straight up honest. I hope you are able to get the proper medical treatment that you urgently and desperately need.

Thank you for your prompt response. I have copied and pasted to my dentist and I am going to be on their doorstep at 9am when they open, roughly 25 minutes from now. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me like this. You have been amazing!

Hi Mhigton. Aw! You’re so welcome! It was the least I could do since you are suffering so much and those doctors lead you astray. This is wonderful news that you’ll see your dentist in about 12 minutes! Good job at taking this into your own hands and being your own advocate!

Make sure to tell your dentist every single one of your symptoms even if you think they are not related to your oral infection or if you think the dentist won’t want to hear it. Tell him or her anyway. You have so many symptoms of a serous infection! That pain you had in your back that you said felt like someone was kicking you in the back? That could possibly be kidney pain. You could also have a kidney infection, so a urinalysis would be a good idea. You should have had one before taking antibiotics, but oh well now. That antibiotic is obviously not curing your infection so if you also have a kidney infection, infection marker might still show up. Write all your symptoms down if you need to. Best of luck! Let us know how it goes. ❤️

This whole post started because of my growing awareness of how our dental health impacts our general health so rest assured that I have brought him fully up to speed with what I am experiencing. I haven't had those muscle spasms in my back for several days now but I share your concerns and am seeing my GP tomorrow to organise some blood work, urine and stool tests and just get a general check over. I'm on it friend and thank you!

This is mental. My dad sent me a message a few hours after I read this. He actually has this exact issue, his dentist just told him his body has been fighting it for decades but no one found it before. I’ve sent him this link. I’m also gonna get checked as I had a bad tooth before my accident 18 months ago,and I’ve got worse not better.

I have come in for some criticism for posting what I did. People have questioned 'what has this to do with fibro and I get that and I have done my very best to explain the relevance. Your post tonight makes me feel vindicated!

Thank you for that and I hope that the stuff we are talking about here helps him find a solution.

Very best wishes to you and yours

x

Seriously? How can people be like that? In pretty much every case, Fibro comes with a host of other illnesses, such as spinal disabilities like myself, arthritis like myself and so a revelation like this could be a game changer! So I thank you for your post as it’s extremely relevant. And it’s helped my father and also question one of my own issues 👏🏻👏🏻😊x

Well I hope I have helped you both and I would really appreciate any updates on your progress. Good Luck !!

Also. They told my father it’s been there for 46 years since he had an accident on his bike as a teen and damaged his tooth etc. They’re doing root canal then starting the antibiotics x

Hidden
Hidden

Oh my

Lord I think 🤔 you may have unravelled a few questions for me

My lupus started 8 years ago after root canal the rash appeared on my chest a month later I was mis diagnosed as having acne roesas it was lupus an autoimmune disease I will now ask my gp for a blood test Thankyou so much for sharing and I’m so glad you are better x

mhigton
mhigton
in reply to Hidden

At least my suffering hasn't been in vain then, some good has come of it! Good Luck!

My father saw the dentist the other day and he actually has this. He has severe spinal problems but lots of joint pain. It will explain a lot of his pains. Very relevant x

I am pleased to hear he is making some progress...it's a nightmare isn't it? Here's hoping for a successful resolution for him (and you) and I am so pleased I shared even if it only helps one person it will have been well worth the effort. Best wishes x

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