Most of us do not have access to Keto or Carnivore experts. We follow the people on the internet and YouTube. The problem is compounded by the recipies. All internet gurus eat and talk beef. I can't eat beef, I am an Indian.
Last time I tried Carnivore, after a week on the diet my condition was such that I was unable to get up from bed. I was scared and promptly returned back to carbohydrates.
My primary issues are:
1. Is the butter pasteurised and salted? Or unsalted and unpasteurised?
2. Calculating protein in grams equal to bodyweight in kg...
3. Fats... Which kind and how much?
4. Electrolytes... Which kind and how much? Too much can also be dangerous?
5. Fiber, Fruits / Fructose, to take or not?
6. How to avoid weight loss on Carnivore?
7. How many meals per day?
8. Microbiome health?
Written by
JayPwP
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Why do you want to try it to begin with? Just think of all the harm, and see the bigger picture, and that might help you see where there is more wisdom. These fad diets are not for everyone imho. And the people who feel better on them, none of them have done it for decades as far as I understand. So who knows what they may cause in the long run. Whereas vegetarian way of life has been practiced for a very long time ... hope that helps.
Low carb high fat works for me. The bear diet - nuts, berries and salmon. Plus a bit of chicken and eggs. Low sugar fruit only, like red raspberries and green kiwi.
I've made non dietary interventions - high dose thiamine, cinnamon, and Qigong, so hard to tell how much to attribute to which intervention.
Personally I think the bear diet sounds downright delightful haha : )
My husband with Parkinson's has follwed a diet that is similar to the bear diet for most of his life and thankfully his progression was fairly slow but now he is not progressing but has been able to have an improvement in his symptoms but of course this is no doubt attributable to remedial efforts that are beyond the diet. It does seem however like observing a diet similar to the bear diet might make improvements easier if a person can find something therapeutic that seems to work for them and that this type of diet would increase the chances of having some good results.
Honestly, I agree with the above. The carnivore diet seems like a dangerous idea to me for a PwP.
I believe the minor benefits someone might experience are simply from getting a small fasting effect, but during carnivore it is incomplete and far too prolonged.
Fasting is beneficial when it is 1) done properly and 2) temporary, followed by refeeding.
1) There are two main pathways the body senses a state of no food, via carbs and protein. When they are both absent, the body recognises this as a state of fasting. Fat doesn't interfere with fasting since during fasting the body is using a fat based metabolism. I believe carnivore may have some temporary benefits due to the sugar pathway being absent, but since protein is going to be high at the same time, many of the fasting processes will be blocked.
2) And fasts should be short and temporary, not a daily ongoing thing. Things like daily intermittent fasting, chronic calorie restriction, etc are NOT fasting.
I believe the best form is Dr Valter Longo's fasting mimicking diet. This is a 5 day medical dietary intervention you can buy in a box. But, crucially, it might need to be modified for PwP. Research is ongoing for modified forms of this diet for neurological illnesses like Alzheimer's and Parkinsons. Google Valter Longo for videos and more info. He isn't making money from this research personally and it's a very conservative, first do no harm, approach. IMO.
It is a good idea to be cautious, imo.
However there is nothing I have seen for PD that has given me more hope than these sort of fasting mimicking interventions, perhaps combined with other future therapies.
CreateCures Foundation is a not for profit set up by Dr Valter Longo. He sold his shares in the company that sells the fasting mimicking diet / FMD and the proceeds go towards that foundation and their research.
I believe if you contact them and say you can't afford to pay anything, they will advise you as best they can for free, or put you in touch with nutritionists and medical advisors who are closer to you (if they exist in India, I'm not sure).
I think whatever one decides to do, to check with the Dr first. And that the fasting mimicking diet is much safer than water fasting. Even if the vast majority of people can water fast safely, there will be a small number that can't...
For me, when I have an empty stomach, my PD symptoms get worse. When I have a full stomach, especially from heavy foods like a cheeseburger, my PD symptoms are very mild. People tease me and say, "Then don't let your stomach get empty". Well, when I exercise, especially during speed walks/runs, I can't have much food in my stomach. I'm curious if anyone else has this PD symptoms pattern.
The famous Jordan Peterson definitely appears to have a personality disorder so you shouldn't watch or listen to anything from him or at least don't do anything just because you hear it on anything of him or with him. Would be a big mistake in my opinion.
Despite what you may think of him or his daughter, it is still worth your while to have a listen. The question was asked if carnivore diets are dangerous, not what you think of JP.
No, despite what you think about what other people think, he isn't worth a listen. I've listened to him before and I know who he is. Perhaps you are the kind of person who reaches an opinion without listening, I'm not so inclined. And I don't know why you don't like his daughter, I don't think I said anything about her, you need to go talk to whoever did.
Sorry for your strange and rather bizarre ranting against JP. I’m guessing if you are upset with him then you must be one of those Transgender lefties or maybe you identify as a cat or a squid. 🤪🤪🤪
Years ago I used to listen to Jordan Peterson and similar speakers. It was just a phase and I eventually realised I'd been taken down a social media rabbit hole.
At the end of the day, regardless of our opinions on him, here is something we can all verify ourselves - Jordan Peterson and his handlers are getting extremely, extremely rich off of all the attention he gets by commenting on those 'transgender lefties.'
They would actually love those crazy lefties because without them they would be out of a job (their job is selling you outrage). Those crazy lefties are a necessary part of the business model which has made them all so very, very rich.
im doing ketovore (less than 20g carbs a day) for 168 days now and was diagnosed in September 2022. Ketovore Definitely has a positive health effect. Non motor symptoms improved (poo, sleep, anxiety, brain fog) but motor symptoms stayed about the same so far. Tremor is my most dominant symptom. I follow dr ken berrys propper human diet and heavily support Matthew philipps work.
I have been eating ketogenic for a little over 3 years now and after I got used to it, I introduced carnivore and (intermittent) fasting. I like it very much. I personally have the feeling that it has slowed down or stopped my progress, although of course you can never be completely sure. In any case, some symptoms have improved. I was inspired by dr Matthew Phillips, Amy Berger, dr Jeff Volek, Dr Mark Mattson, Dr Bruce fife and research with positive outcome done about it. If you want, you can read more about it on my Dutch website vechtentegenparkinson.com
Go slow, count your carbs, every week do 5% less. And up fats with 5%. So you can adjust your medication and supplements if needed. Feel free to message.
You shouldn't try a carnivore diet for a week, you should transition to it over six weeks or more as your body needs to adapt to not getting energy from carbs and you should stick to it for three months at least. Carnivore includes eggs, fish, all meats including offal, and butter, so there is plenty of choice if you can't eat beef. Fruit is not part of a carnivore diet. It may take a while to break the habit of eating at least three meals a day but that is driven by the amount of carbohydrate in your diet so after a while you may not feel the need to eat so many meals, just eat what feels right. Here's a good video aimed at beginners.youtu.be/t2om-RJbLyg?si=MsT...
There is a well known Uk private GP and author who used the carnivore diet to clear out inflamed upper gut to help cure numerous neurological diseases, but her protocol now has ‘plus 30 different plants a week too’, following the advice of the good gut biome research. Look up Zoe nutritional research, lots of podcasts/ transcriptions. But the Zoe folks go down the ‘ a piece of organic beef once a month’ route, so the other extreme but as you say not quite the carb.heavy Indian diet. I personally would go down the low(er) carb route to lessen the blood glucose levels, but fats are used to keep you full whether meat, dairy ( eggs, yoghurt, cheese) , ‘fermented’ foods are the Zoe ‘must do’. Swop higher carb foods to lesser ones eg potatoes to sweet potatoes; ditch the barfi etc sweets!
Okay with everything that you said until I got to "Swop higher carb foods to lesser ones eg potatoes to sweet potatoes". Although potatoes are not a regular part of my diet, I can tolerate them fine - they are a complex carb which metabolize into sugar slowly. Whereas sweet potatoes are little different than a load of sugar - they spike my blood sugar terribly
Potatoes cooked and refrigerated overnight increases resistant starch, will spike glucose less and feed good bacteria. I believe its the same for rice, oats, etc.
Yes, everyone is different in the way they react to carbs, and I’m glad you are able to recognise that. However things also change: I’m finding a new hypertensive drug has vastly changed my BG levels/ reaction to carbs…I need 40% more insulin injections daily…even an apple spikes my BG 2 to 3 times what it did pre this drug. Even nuts which were a 0% carbs for me, are now not so.
It is very easy to get constipated on the carnivore diet. For me it is easier and better to just lower high glycemic foods and try to eat lower carb meals. Eliminating sugar and excess sodium is helpful too.
I've been Keto for almost 2.5 years, started mainly for weight loss, which worked great for me. I used to fast from dinner to lunch, 6pm to noon the next day, but started eating breakfast due to continued weight loss after reaching my goal weight.I'm not super strict about it, usually having 1 cheat day a week.
After morning exercise i will have a high protein shake, a light lunch, and then I eat mainly beef, pork or chicken with a green vegetable for dinner.
No sugars except what's already in the food.
I didn't go carnivore due to wanting veggies for vitamins and minerals.
I've been eating pretty strict keto since I was diagnosed 10 years ago. I don't do carnivore, because I eat tons of green veggies and berries, but NO grains, NO potatoes (sweet or otherwise) and (obviously) no sugar. I pretty much stuff myself with olive oil, avocado oil, and saturated fat like butter and heavy cream, but not meat fat, mostly because it kinda grosses me out. I do eat meat though.
I stay under 30g of carbs a day. I'm not sure I see the sense of doing this with carnivore, unless you hate vegetables and are going to take vitamin supplements. I think you also have to make sure you get enough fat and not too much protein...unless maybe you are a body builder?
Whenever you start a ketogenic diet (carnivore or otherwise) you are going to feel crummy for a few weeks as your body has to switch from metabolizing glucose to metabolizing fat. It doesn't mean anything is wrong, and it doesn't mean the keto diet won't be good for you once you acclimate.
There are LOADS of free resources on the web. You shouldn't have to pay anybody anything to get tons of free advice, and recipes!
Hi Jay, I bolded your comments or questions and put my responses under. My family has been keto since 2019 - Dr Matt (Phillips)’s way.
I have to say here that our family does not have personal/financial/Dr-patient relationship with Dr Matt – we are his ‘fan club’ inspired enough to make two family trips from east to west coast US to attend LowCarbUSA 2023 and 2024 conferences because Dr Matt was a speaker.
I grew up in South India… a recent quote I liked from a fellow Indian born American friend fighting cancer – “People eat to live, we (from India) live to eat”. 😊
All internet gurus eat and talk beef. I can't eat beef, I am an Indian.
Jay, did you know that Dr Matt has a free pdf download Metabolic therapy plan (MTP) with recipes that he used in Parkinson’s/Alzheimer’s and his current Glioblastoma trials? He eats the recipes from his plan too. It has an Asian section – couple of these are ‘Palak Paneer’ and ‘Thai Fish Curry’ ! I measure my glucose/ketones everyday and his recipes (I have a printed copy in our kitchen that gets used almost everyday) are far superior than keto books out in the market (a few of these decorate our bookshelf and that’s it). Direct link to MTP here:
I have trained my Indian body to eat two forms of beef in the last few years – sausage and ground beef omelet but my meds (Mucuna) does not work the following day – so I keep beef to once a week or less. I will wait for ‘Carnivore keto vs other keto’ long term Parkinson’s randomized control trial to go carnivore 😉
Last time I tried Carnivore, after a week on the diet my condition was such that I was unable to get up from bed. I was scared and promptly returned back to carbohydrates.
May be “Keto flu” – as your body switches from ‘carb burning' to ‘fat burning’ – you may need to increase salt. This is true for any keto – Carnivore or Mediterranean or Indian or Thai or bear keto (love it park bear!). Read the “How to Do It” section in Dr Matt’s MTP.
1. Is the butter pasteurised and salted? Or unsalted and unpasteurised?
For me, ghee works better than butter. We make ghee at home from pasteurized, unsalted butter (again Dr Matt’s recipes allow use of ghee or coconut oil in the place of butter).
2. Calculating protein in grams equal to bodyweight in kg...
Dr Matt’s Parkinson’s study used 1.2 g protein per kg of body weight
3. Fats... Which kind and how much?
From Dr Matt’s MTP – If You Eat Out section:
“…always add a side of pure fat (Hollandaise, butter, cream, aioli, sour cream, olive oil, or mayonnaise) to every meal. Even if your meal comes with a side of pure fat (for example, steak and butter), you may need to order more of the fat side - in general, you need about 3-4 tbsp of pure fat in every meal.”
In my personal experience, I stick to a combination of coconut oil, ghee, olive oil and avocado oil. I cannot do without coconut oil at least 1.5 table spoons per day – I have noticed that my meds (Mucuna) do not work next day otherwise. Coconut milk/cream works great too.
4. Electrolytes... Which kind and how much? Too much can also be dangerous?
Again, salt and water quantities covered in Dr Matt’s MTP’s ‘How to Do It’ section.
I eat OMAD dinner so I take quarter teaspoon salt in water with my magnesium supplements around 7 am and 3 pm. Dinner includes 1 cup of chicken or bone (goat bones work) stock.
5. Fiber, Fruits / Fructose, to take or not?
Only berries are allowed in Keto. Amla (Indian gooseberries) may qualify – I love homemade Indian amla pickle. Avocados are fruits too - I saw them in supermarkets in my last India visit.
6. How to avoid weight loss on Carnivore?
This applies to any keto – particularly for Parkinson’s patients with low BMI (like me). Dopaminergic medications and protein use same absorption pathways and compete against each other. Dr Matt’s Parkinson’s patient information series (treasure trove - dubbed “mattopedia” by my two teenager boys, I see that glioblastoma series have been added recently), food and meds are best separated one hour from each other
Per Dr Matt’s MTP – two meals per day with no snacking in between.
8. Microbiome health?
I did ask Dr Matt this question. His response - Keto changes gut-biome too.
I assume this applies to all forms of keto. I eat homemade Sauerkraut and drink about 100 ml coconut water kefir with dinner.
I heard Ron Roesler cured himself of PD by prolonged fasting. Any idea about his protocol?
I met Ron at 2023 LowCarbUSA conference briefly as we both were waiting to talk to Dr Matt. Ron said he did extended fasting with meat stock in his coffee for electrolyte/hydration. He took one look at my low BMI petite frame and said ‘you don’t do this, ok?’. Apparently he had lot of weight to lose.
How to migrate to Keto? Following the videos is super difficult for me, and I can't afford a membership 😔
What’s one more video, Jay? 😉 Here’s one of the videos by my teenage boys (not professional podcasters - lol) who look up to Dr. Matt as their hero, and started their own Dr. Matt’s Metabolic Kitchen YT channel:
Thank you for your detailed response. Will try to follow...
We have shifted from Seed oil to Coconut oil for cooking around 8 months ago, and I have started taking MCT oil 15 ml and Coconut oil 15 ml twice a day for the last 15 days.
However being an Indian, the addiction of Chai with milk and jaggery, and the carb addiction are yet to be squashed 😀
BTW I have subscribed to Matt's Metabolic Kitchen 👍🙏
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carnivore diet and medication problems
