Week 6 (The Return): When is a dog too old to learn new tricks?

[ktsok]

Or relearn old tricks?

The context to the run: a previous ‘freestyle’ run of 26 minutes. An argument with my 13 year old son on the school drop off about everything being my fault. A day of sitting in front of a computer reflecting on the learning from a mock exam. It is getting dark, and rain is threatening…

I like running as it is getting dark. My eyes adjust, and the wind rustling things makes me jump. I think about vampires.

For some reason, instead of my usual lightweight waterproof, I reached for the lightweight down jacket. 5 minutes in to the first 10 minute run, it started drizzling. I usually run really hot, but at the 10m mark when coach called time, I felt a bit soaked and chilled still, so decided to keep running. It’s dangerous to plans, this going off-piste - makes one very adventurous. I figured that since I ran 26 minutes the other day, I might as well run the 5 min walk in between the 2 x 10 minutes.

There were many glorious minutes when I thought “I’ve cracked this. Don’t count your chickens. You’ll end up with egg on your face”. I really did think these thoughts! I watched Chicken Run II: Dawn of the Nugget recently, so maybe that was an influence. But I felt good. Really good.

But I do remember looking at the watch and having the fleeting thought “so, 7:50/8 minutes per km = I can run forevvverrrr, I’ve got this pacing thing dialled” until I got a stitch.

The Garmin died at 21 minutes into the run, but judging by coach, I ran for about 27 minutes today. And actually, the whole run felt pretty stress-free. I was quite excited, thinking I had found my go-to pace and my heart rate MUST have been lower than usual, but when I looked at the stats - I was in Zone 4 for 80% of the running time! I had a conversation with Jell about this recently - Zone 2 for me is a slow walking pace, so the idea of zone 2 training is laughable - I’d be 102 years old by the time I was fit enough to break into a light jog, I reckon.

I was a bit gutted that the watch battery died. One of the downsides of the Vivoactive 4s is that if you don’t press the little green tick to ‘save activity’ in the minute or two after finishing, you lose the activity. (On the plus side, it is much, much prettier - see the contrast to the FR235 in the pic). Thankfully, it saved the 26 minutes it was alive for.

Onwards and upwards! Vive la return!

[PaulS83]

Tell me about it. I sneeze and I’m at 160.

Are you using the default zone ranges though? Not all hearts are the same. Some are cold and twisted, and others, like mine, are bursting with apathy!

If you go to Garmin Connect, then the … (more) options, then devices, select your device, go to user settings and select heart rate zones. This allows you to change your max heart rate and then will recalculate your zones for you. If you’re finding that your watch is telling you you’re working much harder than you feel you are, it probably needs a tweak.

This all hinges on the small detail of knowing what your max HR is. What did it get up to when arguing with your son?

[ktsok Graduate in reply to PaulS83]

Paul. Have you forgotten the levels of geekiness I can get to in these matters? I have explored the strap-on HR monitor, taken my max HR to 220 minus the moment of conception, and it still doesn’t make sense according the usual charts and algorithms.

[John_W Graduate in reply to ktsok]

instead of relying on Garmin HR Zones, and if you're interested in training by HR, try the MAF (Maximum Aerobic Function) Method, as developed by Phil Maffetone. It ignores your max HR (theoretical/estimated or measured) and you simply run in such a way that your HR doesn't exceed 180-your age (with adjustments for your current level) - so a 50 year old would try not to exceed 130 bpm. Look it up and see what you think. It's worked VERY well for me. But it requires a great deal of patience and discipline.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to John_W]

Cheers John. I did C25K 5 years ago and geeked out on the HR stuff. I wasn’t joking when I said my HR is in Zone 3 for a brisk walk. I can’t go beyond a leisurely stroll before I’m over the 180-age that’s working for you. I guess we have to work with what works for us!

[Annieapple Graduate]

🍏Wonderful to run away from arguments computers & all the hassle of a busy day! I am not too bothered by stats I must confess but between my watch NRC and Strava they do a pretty good job for me! Well done on that run and glad it was saved!

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Annieapple]

Annie, I aspire to be the runner who doesn’t give a fig about the stats. One of these days I shall properly freestyle it, and achieve the zen of running. In the meantime, I find in the hard moments I need some sort of counting - whether it be the watch, or the coach, or songs - to keep me going. One of these days…

[MissUnderstanding]

Congratulations on an what sounds like an enjoyable run despite the tech! It’s wonderful until it isn’t!

We’d always encourage people completing the programme for the first time to stick with the timings. There’s no need to run the walk intervals. It’s all planned out so you’ll make progress. I know you’re a graduate using it as a comeback so you’re in a better position to judge what’s ok for you. Just for any newbies reading your post, us admins recommend sticking with what the coach in your ear is telling you to do instead of adding on and risking injury by doing too much too soon.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to MissUnderstanding]

Wilko 🙂

[Katnap Graduate]

Or Vivo La Return 🤣I have a Vivoactive 3 and battery power is a common problem.

I had to stop the watch after 3 hours of running when it had been charging overnight and was at 100%. It was down to 92% without any use.

Too many experiences of losing data so stopped it when the battery level was 7%.

From new, it lasted about 6 to 7 hours of GPS recorded activity.

You're doing great ktsok 🐱👍

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Katnap]

Thanks Katnap 🙂

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Katnap]

Ps. Vivo la return - I like it!

[PaulS83]

Even at the yo end of my fitness (as opposed to the yo end) my HR exceeds these rules-of-thumb. They’re typically majorative, based on mean percentiles, so act as good basis.

Falling outside of the range isn’t a worry, just means we’re a bit odd. (In my case) Who knew?

There’s another way of looking at it and that’s the difference between your max and resting. If your resting is around the 60bpm mark, then you’ve got a lot of heart to work with.

My HR monitor auto sets mine based on detected lactate threshold, but this is most effective after some brutal intervals.

And that’d be off plan…

[ktsok Graduate in reply to PaulS83]

Yeah, my RHR is in the 50s, shoots sky high at the merest exertion, then plummets quickly. Sort of a sloth-hummingbird hybrid. It isn’t a worry, just means the HR zone training isn’t for me. Which is no great loss. Nor is the fact my knee prevents me from ‘brutal intervals’. Darn and blast.

[PaulS83 in reply to ktsok]

Zone training could well still be for you, but you need the thresholds tailored to you.

Zone 3 for one isn't Zone 3 for another. Just for pure example, my Zone 3, based on my lactate threshold of 173bpm and max HR of 190bpm, is 154 - 164bpm (89 - 95% LT). That puts me in your Zone 4. I can whistle a jaunty tune for many a mile at this HR (but not right now).

When I'm a fitwit, I do my easy runs in Zone 2, but still averaging around 148bpm, which your watch would consider fairly strenuous. Once you iron out health and fitness variables, HR's are simply a function of heart size as, simplistically, it's a pump.

But, you still need to know where your lactate threshold / maximum heart rate is at. But I think *full disclosure to anyone reading, I'm not medically trained in any way* your HR will come down 10bpm as your fitness moderately grows, and you're probably another 10bpm above the typical. Well done you!

[Jell6 Graduate in reply to PaulS83]

Well that didn't confused me at all!!My resting hr is between 44 and 48, my zones on Garmin are, I think, out of alignment for me but I can't seem to adjust them on the app.

I'm trying to do the majority in zone 3 (which I feel is zone 2) but as John_W says that takes patience and a lot of self control. Not my strengths😩🤣

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Jell6]

It is confusing. I’m not sure all these tests and measures were invented with non-athletes in mind.

I was reading an article about VO2 max (simplifaster.com: how trainable is VO2 max). The author was demonstrating that athletes can increase their genetically determined VO2 max by an average of 25% ‘given the right training over a sufficient period of time’, ie, very easy aerobic training with bouts of very fast. This runs contrary to previous wisdom that VO2 max can only be improved 5-15%.

Apparently the Garmin VO2 max is 95% accurate. Which is a bit depressing, because mine says I’m 37 and I can’t do the fast bit of the training, so it’s unlikely to climb much higher. As a 48 year old woman (not 70, Floss, that’s my left knee), I’m in the ‘good’ category. But I yearn for excellent, at 40+. Top female runners are 60+.

Lactate threshold = for the moment, that means how much milk can I comfortably drink?

VO2 max chart for women by age

[John_W Graduate in reply to ktsok]

As if the HR confusion wasn't already enough!

Why do you want to increase your VO2max ? To what end?

[ktsok Graduate in reply to John_W]

For the nonsense feel good factor of being in the excellent category 🫠

[Oldfloss Administrator Graduate]

Maybe, as MissUnderstanding says, this time around stick with the plan...? As a 70 year old... and this is not an ageist comment... I am 74 in a couple of months... taking it slow and steady and being kind to yourself can mean the difference between finishing and getting injured.

I have just put a post up re this... loads of great ideas there to support our runners at all ages and at all levels.

Quite simply.. just follow the plan and then after you graduate... the world is , quite literally, yours to explore?

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Oldfloss]

PS. I am not 70…

[ktsok Graduate in reply to ktsok]

Yet

[Oldfloss Administrator Graduate in reply to ktsok]

Sorry...I misread one of your past posts..Huge apologies!

[ktsok Graduate]

Thanks Floss.

I stuck to the plan religiously first time around, and am a believer in the wisdom of taking it slow and building up those runner legs/brain cells. I have no ambitions other than longevity.

There is some wisdom gained from having run in the past, and I have climbed for over 20 years, so I’m pretty good at knowing when I’m nearing the danger points. I could feel I was ok the other night. I ran slower than ever before and it was chilly - I think I would have done more harm walking and getting chilled. Plus I was enjoying myself!

But I’m planning to stick to the plan on the next one 🙂

[Oldfloss Administrator Graduate in reply to ktsok]

Well done you..apologies for ageing you faster than you would like!I too am a climber...was, should that be? No, I do still like a scramble! My motto is and always has been, slow and steady!

We just have to be, what some might feel, is over cautious here on the C25K forum. Our duty of care to our new runners, is taken very seriously, as us our concern for returning friends.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Oldfloss]

I hear you x

[Oldfloss Administrator Graduate in reply to ktsok]

Thank you x

[E27M14 Graduate]

Well done, another step closer to feeling like you are “a runner” again! I tend to run by feel. If I feel I can go further, faster whatever then I will. If I don’t, I try not to worry about it - after all, I run partly to keep fit but mostly because I enjoy it. As for the tech - I recently dropped my watch face down on the tiled bathroom floor and it was VERY not happy about it, therefore I HAD to have an upgrade. I proper pushed the boat out and got the new forerunner 265. It has a big bright screen that I can read without glasses (handy when I’m running without said glasses!) but more importantly it has a ridiculous amount of data and stats to play with!!

[ktsok Graduate]

Running by feel sounds like a milestone! Remember those early days of running for 1 minute and being glad to walk again… it’s really nice to hear you are enjoying it. It’s the secret of maintaining most sports/activities. I’ll still cycle occasionally but it doesn’t itch the scratch.

The FR265 huh?! Got to love an upgrade! Do you have any running goals at the moment? X