This one's for the more experienced runners out there. And it's a long post, sorry.
I did my first ten mile (16km) run this morning (HM looming in October). No pausing, no stopping, no walking. It took me a little under two hours. I took one energy gel sachet (SIS GO) about 30 minutes in, and another on the hour. I'm a novice at this. A couple of jelly babies found their way to my mouth as well. I was also taking the occasional sip of sports drink after the hour.
It was going ok. I wasn't trying to set a pace, just keep comfortable and remain aware that I wanted to be able to keep running.
After about 90 minutes, I started to feel uncomfortable. There was still about 4k to go. My legs felt weaker, my back was aching a bit, and my guts were grumbling, which was alarming. I felt like I might need the toilet, and my insides felt a bit like they do when something rather watery wants to be ejected. I was seriously considering whether I COULD continue, and simultaneously trying to conjur up plans for coping with a sudden toilet emergency - miles from home. I forced myself to remain calm, and kept slowly running along.
The discomfort did ease, and though I was running painfully slowly (8 minute pace for the last couple of k) I did complete the run. I did need the toilet. I had my usual immediate after long run carb and protein hit of a porridge/nesquik/banana/milk blend and some lunch later.
A couple of hours after the run, the real tiredness and weakness/faintness kicked in. Thinking about it, 1850 calories is a lot to take out of a body, and I think it wants a lot of that back, thank you very much. I had more energy drinks, and a protein bar, and I feel much better now.
Now, the point of this post is that while you can just go out and run a 5k, even a 10k without much thought or preparation, and there's really no need for food or water during those runs, when you run further, there are a lot more factors to take into account. As well as water and energy supplements, I suspect there are a lot of physiological and even psychological effects to anticipate and manage.
What do you experience, what do you know, and what should I be aware of? For example, I read that our muscles can only store enough glycogen to power them for perhaps 90 minutes. That would certainly account for my problem today.
Thoughts and advice, or a general discussion, please?
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Steve_L
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Can't offer you any real help, only that I've read several times that some energy gels can affect some people that way, and *really* set the gut into overdrive. So very pleased you got home without any unscheduled stops! I'm sure many of the longer distance people on here can give you more specific advice. Good luck
I've heard the same about gels. Try out a few kinds. As for battling fatigue, my marathon running friend said to be sure to take your sports drink/energy supplements about a half hour before you start to feel fatigue. If you're already pooped you've waited too long.
Yes, that's why I took them at 30 and 60 minutes in. I think the time it takes for them to get into your blood and available for use varies on lots of factors, like what you've previously eaten, whether you take them with or without water or sports drink. They have to negotiate your stomach wall, too, and if you're exercising strongly, the blood supply can be diverted from your stomach to your muscles, so absorption can be impaired.
lidl are doing cheap high5 gels at the moment. 4 for £2. ALso a race pack and a marathon pack with extra goodies (and the dinkiest water bottle you've ever seen!)
Thanks for that. There seems to be some differences of opinion about how energy conversion happens. I've read elsewhere that the glycogen around the liver can't be used effectively by the muscles; that it powers the brain and other things.
Fuelling the day before you do a long run is also very important.
What you eat for dinner and for breakfast can make a big difference.
Some time ago I started keeping a log of what I eat for dinner the day before a long (ish) run - and I found that what foods make me run better * : for me is fish, lots of cooked greens, rice or pasta or spuds and some dark chocolate; toast with nut butter or banana and peanut butter in the morning before the run. Lots of water.
I've never used energy drinks or gels, and during my HM I only used chia water (homemade energy drink), frozen grapes and medjool dates. Nak'd bars are nice too
* run better for me can have 2 different meanings, depending on the run; on a LSR with no time goal I consider good a run that I can finish with enough energy to feel I can go on for another few kms - and that after a few stretches and an Epsom salt bath I can go on with my day
I also have no ambition to run 20 km non stop, so I do stop and walk while eat my grapes and drink
I also have monitored what I ate for days prior to a race. I have issues with side stitches and have found a certain "diet" that works for me. If I consume the same food then I din't get side stitches. So far, so good.
I can't offer any advice, as you know I am in pretty much the same boat.
I do wonder though whether this is one of those things that we can only find out for ourselves by trial and error. I have tried energy gels a couple of times, just as an experiment, but they had no noticeable effect.
Fast release biscuits (also SIS branded) seem to have a good reputation but I wonder how many people can actually eat something dry mid-run.
I find it hard enough to nibble a jelly baby while on the move! I think it's true we have to learn for ourselves about our bodies, as everyone's metabolism and reaction to substances will vary, though hopefully some general principles are there to build on. I think I will be wary of gels - the thought of losing control of your bowels while running is terrifying! Sorry to be icky, everyone!
I loathe gels. I hate the taste, the deleterious effects they have on the stomach (as you have described), the crap that's in them, the wrappers littering the route fo every cross country race I have ever run, even if it is only 10k... everything about them. I do everything within my powers to avoid using them wherever possible. I try to rely on real foods for replenishment on very long runs: I make little balls of sushi rice wrapped in seaweed with a blob of miso or apricot jam in the middle ( I think I got this from Scott Jurek's book), I take chocolate coated espresso beans, dried dates, Ella's kitchen organic baby food packets, but my fave in terms of easy digestability and energy boost is baked sweet potato whizzed up in the blender with banana and honey to a really loose consistency and put in sealable sandwich bag - when I need it I just bite the corner off the bag and squeeze it out like a gel. I have found I have a lot fewer stomach problems with these kinds of things because they are the kind of ffods I eat normally and so not a shock to the body.
I would question why you are worrying about replenishing glycogen stores on a 10 miler or HM, though. For a 2 hour run you need to be taking on water (on race day the water stations will more than adequately supply you for this, but obviously in training you need to carry your own), but there isn't really any need for fuel. Your glycogen reserves are more than enough for that time/distance. Whilst you might start taking food onboard a couple of hours into a long run, that is only so they will be available at the 3 hour mark. It is usually not until around the 20/22 mile mark that most marathoners who have failed to refuel start to suffer from glycogen depletion.
That's interesting; thanks for that. It does seem that opinion varies on how long the stored glycogen will last - I've seen it written that it can be between an hour and a half and two hours, depending on pace (and I'd think a persons metabolism and fitness/ability). Perhaps it is a personal thing? The reason I was following that line was that I very definitely experienced a problem after about 90 minutes. I also didn't directly relate the gut problem with the gels to start with; I wondered if it was just my body's response to unusually prolonged effort.
Blimey Rig, I take it you feel quite strong about the gels. But Ive never had one nor do I intend to start doing now. I intend to remain chemical free, just a good old fashioned Bannana is good enough for me. Ive never seen Andy Murrey Have a gel after 3 hours on court, but Ive seen him have a Bannana, if its good enough for him, its good enough for me.
I never did get my fueling right when I did a HM, after I got to the 9 mile plus range during training & on the HM itself after I'd finished a run I'd feel sick, tired and generally just yuck! Belvita breakfast biscuits were a great pick me up post run for me if I could get them down. I stayed away from gels after horror stories regarding the rear department and tried high5 sachets instead which you add to water, they were a pain too because you had to mix them with water before you went out and then because of the gas given off my bottle leaked and I ended up with sticky hands but on the plus side it never made my insides bad so I can't complain. Sorry I can't offer more advice but good luck with your fuelling dilemma and HM
1. If I have a gel I get loose ( apols for TMI) during the run so I don't now... I hate them!!! And I would only have one every 8 miles or so
2. Yes... After 90 minutes the body is burning its own energy stores... But you'd had the gel so it was probably a messy mixture! It takes a lot to train the body to eek into those stores, we like to hang onto them!
3. I have a 'break' every 3 miles...just slow down, have some fluid etc and allow yourself some mental recovery...
4. Well done, you have achieved a fantastic run today, it's bloody hard and you did it... 😎
Thanks, Ju. That's a really helpful input. I think there's a lot of work to understand yourself and how your body works, and what's right for it.
As I reflect on today, I'm really pleased at what I did, and especially having the strength (mental more than physical) to see it through. My legs feel it now!
Steve.. that sounds like a fantastic run and non-stop as well!!
I'm just back in from a 14k run.... well I say run... today I lost all energy about half way through... but I was 7k away from my car .. I had to keep run/walking as best as I could...Doh!! But my overall pace (embarrassed to say what it was) was better than the last "run" of that distance.
I do use SiS gels and although they cause me no problems "down below" I'm not sure whether they are helping or not. I did of course take a drink which I slurped every few km. I'm not sure why today was not so good... probably a combination of heat/humidity/pre-fuel/etc etc.
But like you Steve.. I do feel that these longer runs need a bit more planning and thought (which I obviously ignored!) than a 5k around the block. I suppose as we do more runs of this distance we will learn what works for us.
Thanks, Andy. Yes, certainly the longer runs - significantly over 10k - do need serious consideration and planning. It's so strange, after only having started C25K six months ago, to casually consider 5 and 10k to be routine and straight forward distances!
I agree Steve.. But still have respect for anyone who gets off the sofa and runs any distance. My next Asics planned run is 5k.. that will be nice following numerous longer runs over the past weeks. Also can't believe that when I started (almost 12months ago) 5k was a dream!!
Anything up to about 12k is fine for me on just a banana and a pint of fluids (I use very dilute red grape juice). Beyond that distance I begin to flag without more fluid and some food intake. The 8k mark of a long run has become my refuelling point and I have tried jelly babies etc but found Nakd berry bars to fit the bill pretty well. I only take water with me on a run, but my son, a keen club cyclist uses dilute grape juice with salt added (enough to actually taste it) and swears by it.
As you know by now, Steve, we are all different and all react in differing ways to the same physical stresses, so the answer to your question is probably to find out what suits you. I have been anti gels for all the reasons that Rigs gives, having heard the same comments from many runners. They seem like another attempt to market something which we very easily can do without.
i did my first 10 miler last weekend in a hilly race, we must be around the same pace re your timings! and i felt pretty much ok til around 12k, then knees achy , shoulders a bit achy, niggle on inside of hip one side! and a definite draggy legs on and off, tho i still enjoyed it and the rain was a blessing instead of a hot day! i snacked on jelly beans and just stopped at the water stops, but like you say the last 4 ks were , on and off, really hard! so i appreciate your efforts today! i had porridge and banana beforehand, and maybe a bit TOO much rice the night before! tried a gel on a test of part of the run the week before, and like you, my insides felt VERY strange for 2nd half of run, so that has put me off! don't think i took in enough water, worrying about needing the loo, but i was fine so will have more beforehand next time!
but is a bloody long way, first go especially, so well done! i know what you mean about the tiredness, i was very flaky couple of hrs afterwards til had a decent snack!
Hello Steve, congratulations on your first 10 miler.
Everyone is different but here is my POV... The first time I did a 15k I felt like I'd 'hit the wall' around 12k - concrete legs, shuffling pace, you name it... The second time, a couple of weeks later, I got to the full 16k, non stop, and it felt so much better, though I was very tired later on in the day. I didn't take any fuel with me either time.
The next time you run 10 miles, I am sure you will find it a lot easier, physically and psychologically, having done it before. And so on - I have found the more experienced you get, the more your mind and body adapt and take these long distances in their stride, so to speak.
Personally I can run 10 miles comfortably without fuel, and I have done it without water too, though it wasn't a very nice experience. Hydration is important. I do take jelly beans on long runs now, 'technical' ones called Sportbeans (they have added vitamins and electrolytes apparently, whatever) but the main thing is that they are really rather delicious, give me a boost, and crucially have no digestive ill effects. I've never tried gels and quite frankly am afraid to having read all the horror stories!
That's was an interesting read Steve, your post has given me food for thought as I'm training for the Great South run which is 10 miles. Quite a bit shorter than a HM but still a fairly long run, I think I need to do a bit more research. If you find anything else to note please post it, I will do the same. Best of luck with your training.
i can only reiterate what others have said.. well done on the distance!! good luck on working it all out..
Personally, I'd go with suggestions of ' real ' food.. OR.. jelly beans sound great ... maybe jelly babies.. you can bit the heads off if you feel particularly grumpy/it is difficult at that moment in time.. always makes me smile when i decapitate one.. and I'm not running 10 miles!
Nakd bars are the best, particularly if you manage to get hold of some of the newer flavours - I am a big fan of the Cherry Bakewell and Rhubarb & Custard ones! Worth a trip to Asda alone!
I am not a fan of gels, in principle or practice. I will see how I go over the next week or two and report back on Garmin connect. Water, jelly babies and nakd bars are the way forward I think.
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