I am an old retired Engineer - when I finished my University Degree, I called myself "an Engineer' -- I realised not much later later that I was not an Engineer at all, I was then merely qualified to become one !! - There is a BIG difference. It takes years before someone can truly call themselves "an Engineer"
I see a similar thing with C25k. Although, I didn't think so at the time I was doing it - I now realise that if we do it "properly" we really don't have to put too much effort into the daily task that it sets for us. Of course, it seems enormous then and it is very satisfying to complete the tasks and we are all proud, and rightly so, of finishing them -- but a much bigger task lies ahead for us. Now comes the time to lay down a solid foundation - to use the tools we have now been given. To some extent, I am wishing that I had not gotten so enthusiastic earlier on and signed up for a 14Klm race. My training for that is kind of interfering with a more important necessity that has to be done before I can truly call myself a "runner" And that is, as I said as a sideline in another post here, to get a lot more miles on my shoes!!
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Bazza1234
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Oh dear Bazza. Now I know why I thought I recognised a kindred soul: I'm an engineer too. The problem is, as was so eloquently put at a meeting I attended at the IMechE on Monday: engineers think too much, question everything and have an opinion on everything. Stop thinking and just enjoy getting out there would be my advice
I've been telling my engineer husband he's like that for the last 52 years and Bazza just enjoy your running. It must be in the name my husband's a Baz too.
A doctor friend has told me there are a high proportion of undiagnosed autistic/aspergher's/OCD people working in engineering.
We are all runners. Being overly worried about statistics/ training plans and if 'I am a runner' leads to injury and failure, as I have seen in my own experience. I agree that in a sense, we are all learning all the time and therefore are apprentices. But this should not be used to diminish the achievements by all, whether 5k or marathon. Forgetting to enjoy the journey and obsessing on training plans and staticistics leads to injury and failure. We all have different goals we want to achieve.
Also please see RFC's pinned post on the topic. There is the potential for this thread to turn into a repeat of what happened with Fitmo recently. Could I suggest that we don't get into an argument on this thread and just agree to celebrate everyone's achievements?
Such wise words Bazza. In the end, if we're on this forum, we are most probably baby runners. Overconfidence is such an easy trap to fall in to and nothing leads to injury faster. The gradual accumulation of miles on shoes is definitely the name of the game. *Rubs knees ruefully and wishes she'd had thought of this weeks ago*
Why does it matter? Why do you want to take the shine off peoples achievements like that? You remind me of my dad who told me yesterday after I ran 10 miles (for the first time) in 1 hour 50 that I 'must have walked some of that'. He made me feel like rubbish and I'll bet a pound to a penny that your part has made some of our members feel rubbish too.
I havw a history of idiopathic subglottic stenosis. I underwent major surgery last May to have my airway reconstructed. I was in hospital breathing through a tracheostomy with a stent made from my rib and a skin graft from my thigh holding my airway open after 2 tracheal rings were removed from my airway. I took up running in August using the couch 25k program having not been able to exercise for over 6 years because of my body's habit of trying to strangle me from the inside out. My airway will always be narrower than a typical female adult airway so I am never going to be fast. But I am going to run. You do not know who I am, you do not know what I do. You can not tell me what I am. I am a survivor and I am a runner.
You may not think of yourself as a runner but you only have the right to come on here with define yourself, not other people when you don't know their stories.
Colleyflower - I have not tried to take shine off anybody;s achievements - you can read the words "satisfying" and "proud", etc. I acknowledge and honour every one of us (including myself ) for getting where we are. BUT -- I am one who always thinks that I must face reality. And the reality is that while finishing C25K is a wonderful and admirable thing, it does not make us experienced runners who can get out there and "go for it" ! We are no longer crawling -- but we are still toddlers , still unsteady on our feet - and many here have fallen from over estimating themselves after graduation. Of course , it is dangerous to generalise - because there are some who do make leaps ahead without hurting themselves , but many many do not.
If you get out and run on a regular basis, you are a runner. It is true that so long as you continue, you will become a fitter and more experienced runner. But you have to BE a runner before you can be a better runner. Saying that the term doesnt actually apply until you have reached some undefined upper level is a head game that you evidently must play to feel like there is any point.
Runners run. All the rest, all the stats and timing and need to constantly gauge your efforts and apply rankings is what some people do to keep busy. Unless you are in a position that those increases will net you some sort of outside approval via money or medals, all of that is just busy work to keep you occupied. It is absolutely not necessary to do any of that to be a runner.
I've got a facebook page which I used to share my path through reconstruction surgery, if you google 'Jacqui's reconstruction' you should be able to find it as it is public and I don't believe you need a facebook account to view it. I probably don't update it as much as I should these days, however there are people that follow the page who are currently suffering from the same problems with my airway as I did so thank-you, you have motivated me to add a post letting people know how well I am doing just over a year post surgery.
Hi colleyflower, you're not alone with parental critiscism, I 've signed up for my first 10k and when I told my dad, who's never run in his life, he said, that's not very far is it?" I'm 47 and he still makes me feel like an angry 12 year old!! Awesome work doing 10 miles, you keep going! And as to the original thread, you were quite right. Cheers, Walrusman
Thanks walrusman - good to know I'm not alone I'm not going to let feeling like I'm 6 again stop me from getting out there. And I want to make sure my kids know that whatever they do, if they love it, it is good enough for me.
Hi colleyflower sorry anyone most of all a parent made you feel that way. I have a very dear friend who quite often says "your not a teenager now you know" or "Isn't it about time you gave up this daft running nonsense" !!!! WHAT not until I absolutely have to, I'm proud to call myself a runner as I head nearer to my 64th 'B' day (now known as bu66er not another one day)
Very well done on your running achievements your health problems were extreme to say the least but you have got through it all with flying colours, you are a true inspiration, keep up the good work
Thank you Oldgirl. The worst thing about my dad is I see him doing it to my girls as well, for example they'll bring him a colouring they've done and he has to point out the bits where they've gone outside the lines, or where tehy've used a non traditional colour (I quite like purple elephants actually) rather than just admire it. I don't think he knows he's doing it, it just seems to be the way he is. It perhaps explains why I was never very confident as a child.
Anyway, I follow your exploits on C25Kers and I think you're brilliant, so a positive comment from you means a lot
We have always encouraged our grandchildren and pics have been on the kitchen walls put there with pride, seeking perfection can leed to unhappiness, it's just not healthy (only my opinion).
You are absolutely right, it's only now that I can see where my feelings that I've never really been good enough have come from. I'm trying to stand my ground a lot more, it's a hard habit to break after 43 years but I'll get there.
Graduation does not make you a runner. True. I think it can happen before that. I think it happens at the moment where instead of it being an event to be endured that you suddenly want to go out and do something you would never have thought possible before, be it 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 5k, 10k or whatever. Theres a point where you realise that you can do this and more importantly, you actually want to do this.
I have my first two events coming up over the course of the next few weeks. I don't expect to win them or even do PBs in them, but I do expect to enjoy them. Wouldn't have said that a year ago. I think that that very attitude, perhaps in my own limited way, makes me a runner and i'll take it.
My field of professional expertise is people not engineering. But I thought that engineering was about making things work and to my mind using the term 'runner' does that. Someone who thinks of him or herself as a runner is rather more likely to achieve the current recommended levels of activity for optimal health. What holds people in general back is thinking they are 'not good enough' (they don't look right, they are not fast enough)
Where I do agree with you is that NHS C25K is a tool, a foundation, a beginning and eventually you are on your own with this. I see no place for an NHS 10k or marathon programme. I think I see what you may be saying about perfectionism, hyperfocus and it is a risk. I do think we see boom and bust here sometimes - people who haven't securely learned the lessons that C25K offers them. But I don't see how defining all C25K graduates as somehow less than runners prevents that. Obviously they do have to keep running - and in that sense I am with you. I am not a runner in the way that some other members of my extended family are, and I have no wish to be. I graduated from C25K over two years ago now and I have run regularly ever since and there's some satisfaction in that but I am not sure I feel more of a runner now than I did when I graduated or indeed when Laura told me I was. By some definitions I am not even a jogger. Those definitions do not help me.
I really agree with this - but what I would say to Baz is that baby runners/toddler runners/graduates/whatever, surely "running" is an evolutionary process? Some of my sporty friends who can knock out a 10K like *that* are evolving their technique so they can trail run, sand run, street run etc.
To me, running is an evolutionary process whether it be evolving from street to sand running or from 5k to 10k, we are learning each time we run.
The fact that am getting out of bed, slapping on my lycras and pounding the pavements for no less than 30 mins at a time for no other reason then I want to makes me a runner, well I think so anyway
I can see where you are coming from, Bazza. Personally, I believe being a 'runner' means different things to different people. I also believe that if you run regularly, be it a mile or 5 miles per run, you are still a 'runner'. I think there are different 'levels' of runners but I like to think we are all still runners whether we run a mile three times a week or run a half marathon every week. Some runners are more experienced than others
Paul - yes, I agree with what you say. I do/did not mean to take anything away from anybody -- some people will "get" what I am trying to say and others won't - I like FrannyFran's acceptance ( and admittance) that she? is now only an "apprentice runner" -- she get's it!
There you go... you said 'only' and 'admittance' - those are not empowering words.
There is a sense in which every runner is an 'apprentice' as it is always (or can be!) a learning experience - from Mo Farah and Usain Bolt to the person for whom Laura has just said the magic words.
While I agree that graduating C25K is not the point where someone becomes a runner I disagree completely with the suggestion that it necessarily takes more than that to be allowed to call oneself a runner.
The idea that running for 5K or 30 minutes regularly is not enough to class yourself as a runner is I am afraid elitist garbage! If someone regularly goes out running then they are a runner and anything else is just a fine grading, sure they may not be a marathon runner but why should that stop them calling themselves a runner? Sure they may not be a 'good' runner but even a slow or 'bad' runner is a runner!
I would say that someone can be a runner before finishing C25K, its about the mindset not the pace and distance. If you disagree please let me know at exactly what mileage covered I am allowed the privilege of calling myself a runner? What speed and distance do I have to achieve before I am allowed to say I am a runner (please no arbitrary numbers though, we need a universal specific here for your point to have a leg to stand on)
The way you say we can be proud of our achievements in C25K while making the overall point that we are really not runners and have no right to call ourselves such comes across as extremely patronising and condescending by the way.
I personally think this sort of post is extremely poor form and will simply serve to discourage people that are struggling and put some people off all together.
If it is patronizing and condescending - then it is patronizing and condescending of myself. It comes from a realisation that I have had about myself - and it also comes from an observance of those here and others in the "real " world who have and are hurting themselves -- because they think that they are runners when what they really are are runners with not many miles on their shoes. I can call myself whatever I like - it doesn't make me so . Anyway - I need to go and get some a lot more miles on my shoes
People who think they are better runners than they actually are and push themselves to hard getting injured doesn't mean they are not runners at all. people who run get running injuries, and people that push themselves harder will I suspect get more on a sliding scale.
I work with a chap that regularly runs 60K plus, runs too and from work (including 4 times up 11 flights of stairs and does well in running events, he recently picked up an injury while running, suppose I should break the news to him that he isn't really a runner yet as runners don't over exert themselves or getting injured as they know better because of their experience.
While you are right that simply calling yourself something doesn't make it true to say that it isn't true requires a standard to be measured against. for example I can't call myself a dietician as I haven't met the requirements but I can call myself a nutritionist truthfully as I have met those requirements. So again I ask what is the mileage I have to cover and the pace I have to run at before I can 'truthfully' call myself a runner (here is a hint if you have trouble setting a boundary maybe its because there isn't one)
The problem with your post isn't its application to yourself, no one would care if you said you don't think of yourself as a runner yet due to your inexperience the problem is you are trying to apply it to everyone universally (which also applies your condescension and patronising to everyone)
Maybe you might want to consider that in your reply you describe us non-runners as runners, after all a runner without many miles on their shoes is still a runner.
When I went to race for life I was told not to join the 'runner' queue unless you were able to do it in less than 30minutes. I run 5k in around 35. I was really annoyed at the time, in fact I a actually had a little cry. My mum kept saying when I told here about c25k 'are you really running or is it just jogging'.
You know what I 'run' as fast as I can. I literally push myself as hard as I can and a little further each time. I have improved massively over the last few months. I came up with a plan to improve my fitness and loose weight and IT WORKED. Yet all I get now is people telling me how to exercise and what to eat.
I am not an Olympic runner, in fact I am not competitive at all I don't intend to be. I will never call myself an athlete and to be honest I can't imagine a conversation where I would describe myself as a 'runner'. My philosophy on exercise is its doing your best. If you are 'running' for health/fitness/weight loss and achieving a little more each time then you can call it what the hell you like.
I call myself a baby runner I am still learning. But I AM a runner.
I get what you are saying.
But people get different things out of learning for example when I finished my degree I didn't think I was an expert in environmental policy or planning but mearly that I had the tools to go out there and gain more knowledge in my chosen field, true learning wouldn't start until I was out there doing it. But that didn't mean I couldn't call myself a 'professional'.
There are many different types of runner.
Some use this as the foundation to longer runs, races etc
Some get into all the technical aspects
Some just literally want to get out there a few times a week and do it with no care in the world, pace and distance having no meaning to them.
I think as soon as you make that decision to pick up those trainers and commit you become a runner - a baby runner - but you should still be able to proudly say I am a runner.
For you it's a foundation and you are happily learning technical stuff and thinking and analysing that's great. But I do feel the title of your post may devalue the experience for some, they may just see that and think oh well what's the point then and not even click to read the body of your post.
Go put your trainers on, have a run and clear your mind.
Hmmm, I've read, I understand but this leaves me with the question "In that case what does it take before we are considered runners?"..... Two years graduated and can't say there's been a light bulb moment yet.
I get what Bazza is saying but I've got to agree with Spoonie. My daughter recently passed her driving test. At 17 she is a driver - she is allowed to drive, she may be inexperienced but then again possibly a better driver than those who have learned bad habits. She can however definitely call herself a driver.
I was delighted to hear Laura announce I am a runner. Like everyone else on here I am. I can run fast if I want to. I have crocked myself twice from running in woods but still think of myself as a runner. Just one who made a bad choice of running surface. Sometimes you have a bad run - look at Paula Radcliffe but it doesn't take away the fact you are a runner.
I am a chartered engineer but it doesn't mean I'm better than you or anyone else just that I have a lot of experience and joined a club by passing an evaluation.
I joined the C25K club to get fitter, to be able to run for 30 minutes - non-stop, in most people's book this makes me a runner but I don't need to be measured against others to know this. I have benefitted from the support and advice on this forum from other runners. Next up is probably the 10k but if I chose to run 5K faster that would also be a valid goal as a runner.
Thoughts for the day
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go. – T.S. Eliot
Success is never final. Failure is never fatal. Courage is what counts. – Sir Winston Churchill
and my favourite to get off the couch
Footprints on the sands of time are not made by sitting down - unknown
I get was Baz is saying too, and there is no more supportive runner on here. He is here for everyone and has got under the skin of this running lark and enables us to see the bigger picture. It's dead easy to get a bit of tunnel vision and sometimes we have to lift our heads up to get a better view, which is what Baz gives us
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go. – T.S. Eliot
That's my favourite;o)
I'm afraid I disagree with you. In my book, the moment someone commits to stepping outside the front door for the first time and they start running, they ARE a runner. Not everyone who starts has the aim of even completing the C25K, let alone a 10K, half marathonetc, but that is what makes people so unique and varied ~ we all have different reasons, different aims, different goals, different abilities...and the list goes on. BUT, on here, we all have one shared and common goal, and that is to run. We may never make the end, and most of us will be happy completing the C25K, and maybe a bit more; but if we don't, does it matter? As long as we are out from infront of the TV, are taking exercise and are feeling good about ourselves, why shouldn't we acll ourselves runners? We ARE running.
People, please keep running at what ever level you are comfortable with. It doesn't matter one jot if you never run 5K or for 30 mins, what does matter is that you are proud of yourself and your running.
This is supposed to be a fun part of life ~ not a competition.
Happy running, STAY SAFE, and what ever anyone says, you are all runners to me, and I am proud to be a part of the great world of runners that you are.
Sally
I'm afraid I disagree with you. In my book, the moment someone commits to stepping outside the front door for the first time and they start running, they ARE a runner. Not everyone who starts has the aim of even completing the C25K, let alone a 10K, half marathonetc, but that is what makes people so unique and varied ~ we all have different reasons, different aims, different goals, different abilities...and the list goes on. BUT, on here, we all have one shared and common goal, and that is to run. We may never make the end, and most of us will be happy completing the C25K, and maybe a bit more; but if we don't, does it matter? As long as we are out from infront of the TV, are taking exercise and are feeling good about ourselves, why shouldn't we acll ourselves runners? We ARE running.
People, please keep running at what ever level you are comfortable with. It doesn't matter one jot if you never run 5K or for 30 mins, what does matter is that you are proud of yourself and your running.
This is supposed to be a fun part of life ~ not a competition.
Happy running, STAY SAFE, and what ever anyone says, you are all runners to me, and I am proud to be a part of the great world of runners that you are.
I think as someone has mentioned in a answer. Most people get the point that is being made here. Like many things in life it is all personal to the individual. I think unfortunately the title of the post is less sensitive than the content of the post. The content is written with thought and caution. A runner is someone who runs, but we will all have individual times within out running career that will developed us further.
Oh Dear - what a storm about a word or two. Bazza - you have been so supportive to so many people, and now people are upset because you have done what my engineer husband often does - that is put out a stir-up call without remembering that many of us will take it at face-value and feel threatened.
We are not all engineers, and so we don't all use words quite as specifically as you guys. (We're not all Latin scholars either, so I'd better not go into derivation of the verb "to run" and anyway I don't think they had a word for "to jog".)
All I know is I feel a terrific sense of achievement because three months ago I would rather have missed a bus than run for it, and now I can run for 30 minutes without stopping, so now I don't feel a fool or an imposter when I'm out there. When I first started I was apologetic about buying running shoes!! Now I'm looking at running clothes and not feeling silly, so in that sense I am definitely a runner - albeit not a fast one.
I am quite certain you didn't mean to belittle that or anyone else' achievements, only to warn people not to hurt themselves by expecting too much too soon. So let's get this show back on the road.
Ahhhh Bazza! You seem to have created quite a stir with this post. All my in laws are engineers of some sort or other and I have noticed that they define things in "certain" and "definitive" terms.
I have to say I lean more towards colleyflower and kermit81's points of view. I believe it's all about a sense of achievement and not just defining us as runners. I look at C25K as something that has given me better health, a sense of achievement, a better sense of well being, weight loss and better mobility. The fact that I run to achieve this is just the way it is.
P184 and colleyflower and lots of others on here have achieved SO MUCH from running. Some of the folks who have battled with health issues and weight problems are truly inspirational and they did this by running. So what if it's slow? Or fast even. They didn't walk, or skip, or dance their way to achievement - THEY RAN! And all thanks to C25K and the supportive cast of characters on here!
I know you weren't patronising as I have read quite a lot of your supportive posts on here. But I couldn't care less if someone thinks of me as a runner or not. All I know is......I run to make my life better!
Interesting to read this. I'm quite new to this forum and to C25k and, although Laura told me I am now a runner, whenever my Mr Fit husband talks about me running I am quick to respond with 'it's not running, it's plogging - plod+jog!'
So I shall plog on ...
"It does not matter how slowly you go as long as you do not stop." (Confucious)
I've been trying to live by 'Live and let live', 'First things first', 'Keep it simple' for a while now and it works for me!
wow what an interesting and contraversial post. My view is that I am not a runner. But I really don't care. I run 5-6K three times a week and am hoping to build up to 10K so I can enter a 10 K run next year.
I thoroughly enjoy my running and am gaining health benefits.
If you run, and it doesn't matter how fast or slow - or call it plod, jog or sprint, then you are a runner. If you do that by following C25K (or any other training plan) then you are a trainee runner. As you complete more and more runs you become an experienced runner. My point is that as soon as you decide to take that first step then your mind becomes the mind of a runner - the rest is all relative.
The same applies to being a driver or an engineer, a nurse or whatever you want to be.
Oh Bazza, you've really set the cat amongst the pigeons this time, mate Better start running in dark glasses and a false moustache for a couple of days until all the fuss does down
I get what you are saying and I think in our running we all move through different phases... Learner, new runner, experienced etc... I think 'from novice to expert' perhaps describes it, but where ever we are on the journey, I like to think that we are all runners because its such a personal thing too.. We don't judge or score each other, just ourselves
I am reminded of my Dad's words when I passed my driving test feeling euphoric at having passed at the second attempt. His words? Don't think you are a driver - not until you have driven 20000miles and had an accident! I was gutted - all I wanted was him to affirm my success. However with the passing of time, I understand more and more fully what he was saying. And I think you make a valid point. The C25K is a grand starting point building understanding of body and mind and perhaps improving in some ways be it speed, stamina - or just enjoyment and a feeling of well being!
My son is now a fully "practicing" Psychologist. He really did it the hard way - took him 12 years to get where he is now. 6 years for a part time Bachelors Degree - 4 years for a part time Honours Degree and then 2 years for a part time Masters degree -- all the time while working to be able to eat.
I do now tell him that he will make a great Psychologist - in around 10 years after he has had some more experience He doesn't care much for my words either -- but he is learning!
Baz..I get what you are saying too..... BUT, so much of this whole running thing is in the mind.
That gremlin,evil imp or monkey on our shoulder at times when we' re out there doing our best on a run...it's all too easy to hear it telling us there's no point carrying on, you look daft,who do you think you are ...you're NOT a runner...who are you trying to kid ? You might as well give up and go home and better still, don't bother getting up from your pit next time and doing it again.....
We have to know in our heads that we are ' runners ' ,it helps to overcome the doubts that the gremlins and monkeys like to plant in our minds in our weaker moments.
I know when I graduated last September I thought I was a runner then....I felt euphoric. Many times since ,as recent as last week,I've wondered what the hell I'm doing lacing up my shoes and going out there again,berating myself for my lack of progress,speed,distance....blah,blah.....
Sometimes the only thing that gets me out is knowing I'd feel worse if I didn't ....and craving the buzz that I get when I've done it.
So true Carolecal (your last comment) and then sometimes, just sometimes I'm out there and and I realise I'm actually enjoying the here and now of this. I'm hoping as time goes on, I'll get that feeling more often...
Oh dear me Bazz on reading your post I was taken aback it seems you as a retired Engineer are still analysing, even your running. Why not just get out there and run and enjoy it, don't think too much about what you are doing and what you call it either.
We are on this site a happy friendly bunch of runners, here to help and assist those working their way through the C25K program lets keep it that way everyone please
There are people who make things happen - there are people who watch things happen -- and there are people who wonder what happened. I believe that people who are not in any way analytic of what they do belong to the third group
Content on HealthUnlocked does not replace the relationship between you and doctors or other healthcare professionals nor the advice you receive from them.
Never delay seeking advice or dialling emergency services because of something that you have read on HealthUnlocked.
- There is a BIG difference. It takes years before someone can truly call themselves "an Engineer" 
Better start running in dark glasses and a false moustache for a couple of days until all the fuss does down 
2weeks after graduating C25K
🍏Runners make a plan
Completed my 1st Park Run - whey hey!!!!
Raindrops keep falling on my...graduation!!!
