In Coach Bennett’s voice: “Week 1 is DONE! I’m so proud of you! You have come again and again to the starting line!”
Is it weird that I’m beginning to have an internal motivational voice that sounds a lot like Chris Bennett???
Late morning run today, completing the first week with a speed interval session. (NEXT SPEED RUN)
They are quite fun, although both coach and me got so carried away and missed an announcement of a halfway point. So I ended up finishing the speed session at the halfway point, and joggled back in my slowest 500mile pace!
And mile pace, 5k pace and 10k pace is really hard to differentiate when joggling so slow as I am. So the 6 out of 7 , e.g. the 5k pace I could definitely not have carried on for 5k. My 10k pace feels like it’s the 5k pace and they are pretty similar. If I can run 5k in a particular pace, I can run 10k in that pace.
I do think these paces are actually different for slow runners. Asking slow runners to differentiate between 5k and 10k pace is like asking a normal-speed runner to have a 10k and a 21k pace?
So my question to you experienced 10k and HM runners, do you have different paces for each?
Nevertheless, very very enjoyable. And although I didn’t feel like getting out there today, I did and felt better for it.
★ And Cross-Training, Flexibility, Strengthening workouts, as well as tending to any niggles, head over to our sister forum Strength & Flexibility forum at: healthunlocked.com/strength...
Total non expert but my speed runs do show quite clear differences between the required paces.
It might help to totally reframe your 5k and 10k paces as 5k effort and 10k effort (and all the other paces too). I wonder if you’re running your 5/10 effort intervals too fast if they’re the same pace as the 8/10 effort ones. Even for slow runners, if you’re running at a greater effort, you’d expect that to be a little faster? The app isn’t amazing at recording paces brilliantly for me-there was one best effort interval recently that was apparently slower that I walk! Maybe it’s the app missing you’re running faster when you’re running harder!
It gets easier to find the different efforts required the more you do the speed runs and maybe you’ll start to notice that your harder effort intervals are faster than ones where you’re not pushing as much.
I think you’re right. I just looked back at the run, as I didn’t remember if Bennett refers to pace or effort, and he does refer to them as pace in the text. But to consciously see this rather as effort is probably more useful. I’ll try that on my next speed run.
(I do know, though, that the difference between my slowest and fastest speed is much smaller than normal runners. But that’s ok. I’ll live / run with that)
Every NRC speed run I’ve done has talked about effort and not pace because your own pace can vary depending on all sorts of things. Maybe it’s a rogue one where he forgot to say “5k pace is a 7/10 (or whatever) effort” before the interval. The great thing about running by effort is that over time, you may well see your pace get faster for the same effort. It’s nice looking back on other times you’ve done the same run and noticed you’re faster now.
I need to listen more consciously next time. I couldn’t remember but I checked the text and as you can see, it uses the terms 5k pace, 1 mile pace and so on.
Absolutely-I can see those terms are used in the brief summary of the runs but they’re almost always explained as well in terms of effort on the commentary. They never usually expect you to remember which effort corresponds to which pace (thank goodness!). It’s one of the things I like best about the NRC speed runs! Hopefully the next one will have better description of what you’re aiming for.
I’m not yet up to half marathon distance (hitting 15k next weekend hopefully) but the way my coach explains it to me is:
5k pace: 4/5 effort
10k pace: 2/5 effort
Longer than 10k (so marathon pace): 1/5
And he says the effort will stay the same but the pace will change based on how you’re feeling, how windy it is, how hilly the run is, etc. So run for effort not pace.
That seems to give me some differentiation in pace doing that. I’m still learning exactly how to get that to pan out for me but it is helping. Maybe that will help for you too.
That makes real sense to me. For my speeds, understanding it rather as you suggest really feels like a better way of thinking about it. Thank you. I’ll make a note of that:
Thanks. Let me know how it goes. I had exactly the same issue before I chatted it through with my coach, Steve. CB would say 5k pace and I’d think “what the heck is that?!” 😂
It also helps me to slow down on longer runs (although I blitzed an 8k easy run at effort 3 the other day cos I felt great. But at least I knew I was being naughty 🤭)
I’m a big fan of the runs on the NRC app, particularly those with Coach Bennett🏃♂️ I’m training for a half marathon now after my injury late in 2022. I’m not following a particular plan, but I have run a few 10Ks and I’m going to increase my long run by about 1K each week, starting with a run of just over 11K this morning.
I’m also making sure to keep up with strength 💪 and mobility 🧘 exercises suggested by the Recover app, which I also use. I’m running a mix of run types and I was surprised to find I actually do have different paces - Mile, 5K, 10K, marathon. I think the key thing is the effort you put in, for example Mile pace is a 9/10 effort, while 10K is a 6/10 effort. As I’m by the seaside there aren’t too many hills to contend with, and having 4.5KM of flat promenade really helps with pacing👍
Good luck with your journey🏃♀️ Let’s hope for a pain- and injury-free spring and summer and lots of lovely weather too! 🤞
Something to look forward to … 😃🤩 but I think I might be waiting for Godot then. I feel I’m pretty fit, and was when I was running regularly 10ks. But speed differentials were still difficult.
But am carrying a lot of weight. And that’s the issue, I’m pretty sure. That then leads me to Japanese slow jogging (low impact), and with that style, it’s even less possible to have speed differentials, I think.
So, unless I am able to loose some weight, I’m not going to speed up substantially. (And loosing weight is one of the issues with my condition, and I’m not going to stop running to wait for that)
So I think I’ll have to be content with differentiating efforts, but accepting only small differentiation of speeds.
But that’s ok.
As a side note, I experienced what differentiating paces/effort should feel like when indoor rowing. On my rower I have a definitive 1k / 5k / 10k / HM pace , and that was a real revelation for me when I started interval training. But it just doesn’t translate to running for me,
Hi CBDB what a fascinating response you've had, it takes a bit of unpicking. I know you are an experienced runner but here are my takeaways from 10 months, non runner start to now. Essay coming!I write this not to offer any advice at all but to wonder how this is important to 'an improving 70 year old overweight runner'! I actually think it is by the way because I want to improve my cardiovascular system to be as good as it can be in everyday life terms. Health Unlocked!
All my measures, cadence, pace, HR, effort, weight have all improved through running more for longer, ie improving endurance and stamina. I've tinkered (emphasis) with improvement strategies from running plans and not perceived any gains ie struggled. I really do think interval plans are mostly targeted at least at already average/good runners and there are so many starting points ie anything from 400m to 1 k+ multiples with walking, running, stretching rest intervals etc. They don't honestly say where a jogger fits in. It would help if they offered metrics but what is 7/10?
So I run my Parkrun still at a comfortable conversation pace now at 37minutes. Some age veterans in my PR consistently achieve 25 minutes! They mostly have longer legs and are 80% of my BMI at a guess!!!😂
When I gave tokens out at parkrun I think that enabled me to understand the effort metrics. Best understood with the 'elite' PR runners or aspirational runners. At maximum effort runners come through gasping, no conversation, take some time to recover, at hard effort, a thank you and soon talking about their run, easy effort, talking at the finish! All three categories can be observed in sub20 PR times. BUT the maximum effort runners rarely look comfortable with their run, to me it doesn't look or feel right. At sub25 the maximum effort runners thankfully tail off all the way down to the sub45's. This is not to say people aren't trying for PB's many clearly are.
I guess what I want from improving running is to know what I can achieve.
Can I lose weight? I lose weight running for longer runs and more runs, I now do 5 a week. But very slowly (which is good of course).
How fast can I run a given distance eg 5k?
How far can I run?
I am now running intervals that I'm confident are effective. I only move between easy and harder effort and this is clearly measured by my HR which recovers quickly within 30 seconds and my top HR stays within aerobic only briefly going into anaerobic exercise as determined by my WearOS smartwatch. All the measures pace, cadence and HR show rapid climbs, flatten off for the period of effort and drop back quickly in the recovery.
4 weeks X2 additions of interval sessions/wk have clearly increased my fitness. My intervals are only time based, multiple 3 minute units 2:20 / 0:40. Normally I warm up then run with effort long and walk recovery short. I can do 7, or 10 repeats. This weekend I used my interval timer to normal pace long and more effort short bursts putting in 13 repeats. It was fun compared with my normal steady pace. I was clearly warmer at the end of the run but was still fully conversational.
This is simple and measurable. I run further now in a given time so I have to adjust my route or add an up and down to achieve finishing at my destination!
I have wondered about using the playing field for intervals, I may still so this because it helps to run a standard course. Currently I do an up and down the lane 3kms but have added a loop as I am now running 4kms in nearly the same time.
I hope this may help people reading your post that are not really ready for effectively using some supported app runs, as is the case for me. They are by and large a big jump from C25K or B210k/60mins.
oh that is so interesting! Thank you for taking the time to write this.
Specifically the different runners coming through the final park run meters struck me just now.
I recently saw a YouTube channel of a well know runner who trained with his wife for Hyrox. They convinced a group of sport scientists to do some measurements.
One of the tests was to run faster and faster on a treadmill until you could not push anymore.
And initially the guy was making fun of his partner, as his running to the limit left him gasping on the floor, whereas she looked quite ok but basically said she couldn’t push any more than that.
So initially the thought was that men push themselves further, beyond a point where women do (in general).
But then the scientific measures came in (can’t remember what they measured? Percentage heart rate or another measure?).
And the measures suggested that both were at their limit but being at their limit looked completely different between the guy and the woman.
It just reminded me of your experience of watching the different runners coming through the finale.
On my rower I have a definitive 1k / 5k / 10k / HM pace , and that was a real revelation for me when I started interval training. But it just doesn’t translate to running for me,
Makes perfect sense to me that it doesn't translate CBDB . I understand that your rower's a machine that you use indoors. So I imagine that unless you're modifying resistance, you're dealing with consistent conditions throughout your row. Afaik you run outside on varying terrain and in varying weather conditions, so you have to manage those.
But I think there is also something else. And that is that weight does not matter as much with rowing, it can actually work for you, to get the momentum going of the row.
But weight definitely (I’d say) works against you when running.
That's a good point. I've very little experience of rowing as a fitness activity, I've only ever done it to propel a boat, and mostly when I was a kid!
I have only 2 paces, go and not go. It is a task on my list to spend some time trying to differentiate my paces and understand them, but one for another day, right now just putting one foot in front of the other is good enough for me. I’m a slow runner and think you might be right, pace differentials are a completely different ball game for us.
(But I see this cartoon of a rather larg-ish woman running in slow motion… you see that picture 3 times, but with different captions “recovery run”, “5k run”, “all out sprint” 🤣🤣🤣)
I struggle with this as well. I've only run 10k run and that was way faster than I'd planned, very similar pace to my Parkrun time. This was because another runner started chatting to me at the beginning who was a bit faster than me, but we were having such a great time it didn't feel at all necessary to slow down (she even let me cross the line before her, what a hero!).
There's not much likelihood I could keep my interval '5k' pace for a full 5 km, but in terms of effort it feels right.
I tend to interpret it as 10k = easy, 5k = pushing it a bit, mile pace = this'll hurt and best pace as 'this'll hurt but I don't care, wheeeee' 🏃♀️💨
Hi yesletsgo, ' this'll hurt.....'. But the mantra is 'no pain, no pain' and anyone bridging to 10k is arguably still a new runner, or as seems to be across many of the posts here is a constant description of recovering from injury and illness! The health unlocked (this social media group purpose) benefits of running can be arguably should be achieved without pain and as I have found still have plenty of wheeeee!!?Pushing HR into the danger zone is not sensible and not really fun either! The treadmill to exertion test is controlled ( I have done it) as in the example above was with high achieving athletes.
I have yet to see anyone publish high achieving times for any distance on here, although there are some great adverts for a healthy approach to running and what can be achieved. All running for 30 minutes at above walking speed elevates heart rate.
New runners are hopefully reading these pages.
I know you know this and your comment was funny. The social side of this group is important it's part of the fun and supporting mental health a big part of the benefits of running when running is successful. But the founders of Health Unlocked didn't set this up as an alternative to FB.
It's a while since Tim was mentioned, he helped me out of what might have become a self inflicted learned helplessness approach to my health.
You make a good point. While I wasn't being entirely serious there is a reason for using the expression 'This'll hurt...' Running flat out IS unpleasant if you overstep your limits but for very short periods it's huge fun. The guided runs never ask you to go at this pace for any length of time and if it does hurt you physically have to slow down.Personally I prefer this group to Facebook most of the time. Better posts, no politics, no ads, the occasional cat picture, what's not to like?
All these numbers are making my brain hurt 🤪 Like other folk I have a standard slow pace for both 5 & 10k. Effort makes more sense to me than pace and I judge that by my breathing so….little effort = very little sound and mouth mostly closed, a little hill or bit more effort= huffing and puffing, steep hill or ‘fast’ running = gasping!! 😮💨 😂 Of course being unfit at the moment every run is an effort, even a very slow pace 🫤
My question for you all…..what is actually ‘better’ for us ‘older’ runners ……slow, longer runs (with only a little effort) or faster, short runs?
Slow longer runs without question. Try and find some of the posts put on by IannodaTruffe, he gave truly sound advice without taking away the fun. This site is called Health Unlocked, you don't need to run faster for the health benefits.No pain, no pain was the key mantra for C25K and is the mantra for running. An injured elite athlete can't run, what's the point?
“our ability to transport oxygen, vital to triggering activity in muscle, declines with age and consequently our V02 max will decrease. In simple terms this is the maximum amount of oxygen that our bodies can utilise and a man of 65+ with a VO2 max of 37 or above would be considered excellent, whereas that same figure would be considered below average for a male in the 18-25 age range. By increasing your VO2 max you can potentially increase your lifespan, whilst reducing your risk of stroke, heart disease, diabetes and some cancers and theoretically sleep better and have more stable moods.
Hefty claims, so how to achieve it? The simplest way is to make sure that sometimes you work hard at 90-95% of your maximum heart rate and one of the simplest ways to achieve that is by using interval or fartlek training. It is recommended that 80% of your running should be at an easy conversational pace, which roughly equates to 75% of your maximum heart rate and if you are a new runner still doing C25k this should be your aim for all of your running, while you build your strength and injury resistance.
Once graduated though, if you want to maximise VO2 max, some intervals will help develop your oxygen utilisation, although it will naturally develop in a new runner even at an easy pace, but less rapidly.It is often stated that older established runners can improve their times for shorter (5k) runs by doing more short training runs, whereas for younger runners there is reckoned to be a greater advantage doing longer training runs to develop overall stamina.”
The key thing is to run in a way that brings you joy though. ❤️
Hi MissU, Thank you. More technical answers please and thank you for the link. I was struck by CBDB reference to a video of two athletes physiology response being measurably the same but visually, their well being was poles apart. Even the cheapest and basic smart watches now offer better than ever Heart Rate HR readings. Tracking the HR zones on your run is good advice and so any one, especially a novice considering going down the fartlek, interval, jeffing route should/might also be monitoring their stats too or just advised to be running at a conversational pace. Heart Rate max simple measure
220 - chronological age.
If you're 70 then Peak HR is 150. 75% is approx 110 and 95% is 143
Those heart rate zones have corresponding efforts so you don’t necessarily need a heart rate monitor if you’re really good at listening to your body and adjusting your effort to stick within what you’re supposed to be doing. That’s always the hard bit-not getting carried away (except on speed runs when you can let it fly!).
It says that most of your running should be done in zone 2. That’s what I call “couch to 5k conversational” effort. A lot of the speed training I’ve done is “comfortably hard” or “very hard” for a short time, I love those workouts but they’re short, fun bursts rather than the major part of my running. This is what I’ve moved on to from couch to 5k where all of the running should be conversational. I aim for 80% easy, 20% hard across a typical week.
There would be nothing wrong with someone graduating and deciding to carry on at a fully conversational pace if they’d prefer that, but as you’ve found, intervals and other speed runs can be a a great mood boost!
I do think the term “5k pace” confuses me, as I would never attempt a 5k run at zone 4. I would go for zone 2, as for me, 5k is long distance. It’s 45 to 55 minutes long, so I couldn’t keep a fast pace going.
I have my own way of identifying efforts and probably heart rates, although I don’t measure heart rate.
But it’s through breathing.
A “CBDB-long-joggle pace” is for me when I can continually run but breathe through my nose. Going faster, I can tell I need to start breathing through my mouth. I can keep that up for 5k (and when running 10k last season) but it’s not as comfortable as the pace when breathing through my nose. And when I’m not as fit as normal, or are coming back from injury, I tend to breath through my mouth.
Fastest, I’m panting. After that, differences become blurred.
Strangely enough, walking is for me sometimes more effort, especially when I’m talking to someone as it somehow disrupts my breathing patterns.
Perhaps it’s more helpful to think of “5k pace” as a “5k race pace” if you were to attempt one? I often run 5k recovery runs at conversational pace which is different to how I’d attempt a 5k PB.
I’m just back from doing “next speed run” now and wanted to say a big thanks for posting about it. I did my slow and gentle comeback run yesterday and this was the perfect run to shake me out of my feeling down about not running gloom.
I don’t trust myself using pegs yet so I used the recovery walking sections to take notes on my phone. Coach B is such a legend. Not only to do the paces all have efforts, they’ve got words associated with them as well. It really helped me to focus and I’ll definitely use notes to help me remember again!
The key thing that really stuck out-the numbers on the clock don’t define you. The runs are all about the effort you’re giving and that makes you a rockstar. ⭐️
Don’t we all! I think there’s nothing wrong with that as long as we keep them in perspective and don’t let them get us down.
Some of mine recorded by the app today are definitely wrong. My first interval is four minutes long instead of one minute and the pace is apparently slower than my warm up pace. My final sprint is only half as fast as my watch thought I was running (there is always a difference but not that big). I think some of my intervals might include some walking. I usually take it as a rough guide rather than gospel!
I haven't a clue what my supposed mile, 5k, 10k, HM and marathon paces are. I run by perceived effort, as I find running by numbers stressful, demotivating and pointless.
For example, recently my average pace over 13.2k, mostly roads, 271m vertical, was a minute faster than that over 4.5k, mostly bumpy fields and trails, 125m vertical. The latter was more demanding in terms of effort. For similar reasons - terrain, gradient - my fastest pace can be three (or more) times quicker than my slowest in the same run.
For me, the important thing is learning how to vary your pace so you can get the most (whatever that might be) out of your run. If using min/km target paces helps and motivates you, do it. If it doesn't, don't! Have fun with your plan!
I'm with you on that I see people setting their watches for a certain pace and their watches vibrating when they hit that pace. But I run with perceived effort, basing it all on what I feel I can do and want to do. I must say though for my HM training I have been advised to slow the pace right down, but again to me that's telling me to lessen my effort, no idea what pace it should be. I guess I don't use my watch to it's full potential but I don't want to get to get so hung up in it I stop enjoying running.So to to answer your original question, and what I do try ( when I remember ) CBDB , the longer the distance the slower the effort or pace should be. Works for me.
just catching up here…as you know I’m towards the pointy end of the NRC 10K plan…and it’s defo all about the effort.
In fact today I did the 5k recovery run in the last week and CB said “speed is just how fast the run is and time is just how long it took…but the important thing is the *story* of the run…”
All the coaches, be they NRC or guest athletes emphasise effort over anything else…and the fact that the majority of the training is run at an “easy” pace.
I think they do have a slight variation in the definitions…but I think about 2/10 is warm up, and 3/10 is easy/recovery. Actually I’ve heard them say that this can change on the day, depending on how you feel, and the variable weather conditions.
ooohhh, you are so close to the end! I just finished week 2, so am a quite a bit behind you! Looking forward to the slow 10ks again, whatever the pace or efforts!
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My Bridge to 10K training log 💙 [WEEK 1]
