Hey I've been looking for topics on shame but haven't found much. I've been doing a lot of inner work on healing shame and part of this is restoring connection / breaking free from isolation. Shame is profoundly isolating and I personally have difficulty reaching out to anyone to talk about it because it's the last thing I want to talk about. Sometimes I am overwhelmed with feeling absolutely disgusting for no logical reason. And when I feel this way I do not want anyone to see this part of me, and so I either literally isolate myself or if I am having a conversation with others, I feel disconnected and stuck. Trying to hide my shame blocks the natural flow of my energy...I struggle sometimes to even formulate sentences or have a normal conversation. I feel like I want to run away, but at the same time a desire to connect, and then frustrated that I'm not able to connect in a fulfilling way. Does anyone else have thoughts on shame? Does it underlie any other difficult/painful emotions that you deal with? Does anyone else struggle reaching out for connection because they feel fundamentally unlovable?
Anyone want to talk about shame? - Anxiety and Depre...
Anyone want to talk about shame?
Thank you for posting...yes I feel shame daily I'm a failure that has lost motivation to keep faking that im not broken, unemployed, lonely or an embarrassment to my son...
You're right. Shame is rarely mentioned, but is a huge part of anxiety and depression. Most of what I learned about it stems from my own recovery journey, not from books, media or therapists.
I suffered with social anxiety, and a really poor self image. When I went through an embarrassing or distressing interaction with others, I found I went through a series of emotions very similar to grief. Anger followed by sadness, and then despair. But where it differed from grief is that it always ended with a profound sense of shame. This feeling was the source of much of my suffering.
There's so much I could say on this subject, but I'll start by saying that in my opinion it stems from an unrealistic and unfair judgment of ourselves. I was made to feel inadequate in so many ways as a kid, and got virtually no positive messages about myself from my parents. When I became an adult, I took over the role of critic, and was mercilessly hard on myself. I interpreted every comment or reaction from others in the most negative way possible. A raised eyebrow could send me into a tailspin of shame. I also refused to take compliments from others on board, dismissing them as them not knowing the "real me" or just being kind.
But this is the distortion of our perception. We are refusing to acknowledge that they see the goodness in us.
The reality is, that it isn't the judgment of others that causes the shame, but the subsequent self-judgment, self hatred and disgust that we place on ourselves. This is the piece we can change.
The way out for me was multi-pronged. First I made a conscious decision to be kind to myself. I decided to treat myself exactly as I would a close friend. I started to tell myself: "Don't be so hard on yourself, you're actually a great person, generous, lovable. You have faults and weaknesses like everyone else, but you're a decent person with a lot of value." Secondly, I started very slowly to open up to people, acknowledging my mistakes and weaknesses when appropriate (instead of trying to cover them up and look perfect), but also accepting compliments with a simple "Thank you". Thirdly, I got in touch with the feeling of shame and really allowed myself to feel it. I wanted to lose my fear and hatred of it, so that it wouldn't control my actions.
That's a kind of brief summary. Hope it helps shed a bit of light on "shame".
'The reality is, that it isn't the judgment of others that causes the shame, but the subsequent self-judgment, self hatred and disgust that we place on ourselves. This is the piece we can change.'
This is the key to everything Carl and very well said. Shame and guilt has nothing to do with how you really are and is something imposed on you by others.
Everyone has feelings of shame and guilt at times but it's when it becomes a way of life that it needs to change. You give very good advice as you can heal from this - I did. I found as soon as I became my authentic self I was liked a lot more as people found me to be as human as them. A fake self just attracts fake people and that's the last thing anyone wants or needs.
I very much agree, hypercat, that the more we can be authentic, the better people respond to us.
I also agree that others can (try to) impose shame on us. But it only sticks if our self image is low. Once we get a better self image, people can try, but it just rolls off. In fact, when we feel good about ourselves, people sense it and they usually don't even try anymore to shame us.
Unfortunately it's a viscous cycle - shame is a useful emotion if someone has done wrong but if you feel shame for simply existing or for making the smallest of (perceived ) mistakes then it's toxic shame. It's not appropriate or relevant. That to my mind is the problem.Most kids growing up would know that they had made a mistake, maybe apologise and that would be the end of it. That's how I tried to bring my kids up......very different to how I was brought up where I felt ashamed for being born.
It's horrible. If shame is the first way of shutting your kids up then no amount of building up self esteem is going to make any difference.
I agree with you, just explaining a bit more!
You make some great points. It definitely has much to do with how we were brought up as kids. I can completely relate to your statement of "feeling ashamed for having been born".
I do think however you can build up self-esteem, if you go about it the right way. I tried "affirmations" and "positive thinking", and various therapies and counseling, but none of them really made much difference. The key that opened things up for me was learning about and practicing self-acceptance.
I think this worked because it doesn't require you to change anything about yourself, or deny your obvious weakness and faults (yes, we all have some). All you change is how you think about yourself.
"learning about and practicing self-acceptance" is the key!!You have good insight. In this way one is offering oneself unconditional love - certainly in my case something I never received from my parents nor therapists whom I tried. (One was a narcissist) Is this something you learnt yourself?
I can't say I'm fully accepting of myself but I tolerate myself by and large.
I came to it almost by "trial and error". I think I tried just about everything else over the years, including some expensive stuff like hypnosis and private counseling. I also have a closet full of self help books and audio courses. None of it worked. Most of it was trying to tell me things like "You are super confident" when it simply wasn't true. I think my brain said "BS" and dismissed it.
When I came across the concept of acceptance, all of a sudden I realized I didn't have to change (or be something I wasn't) in order to recover, and I didn't have to believe stuff about myself that wasn't true. I just had to learn how to accept myself exactly as I am.
The amazing thing is that I realized I was fine just as I am. And I believe that's true for all of us. Sure, we can all improve in some areas, but we don't have to do this before we accept ourselves. Acceptance can come first.
OMG so true!I have found this with bringing up my kids, and with the work with clients I do - I listen and even if I disagree I "just accept" that that's how it is for them.....it's so much easier! Now I need to accept myself warts and all!
Funny how it's harder to apply the same principles to oneself!
Thank you so much for sharing your discoveries, it's been great for me!
I have had to find my own way probably similar to you. I am of the belief that if you dig deep enough inside/within yourself that you'll find the answers.
Thank you!
Thank you, too!
Having this discussion has really helped me crystallize my thoughts on "shame" and "self-acceptance". I've never really put it all together like this before.
Isn't it funny how we are so much harder on ourselves than we are on others. That's why I started to ask myself "Is this how you would respond to a good friend?" So often I wasn't being very generous with myself, so I began to change that.
I learned bits and pieces from so many others, but you're right, in the end we have to find our own truth, our own authentic selves, and nurture them. You're definitely on the right path and well on your way!
Shame keeps us stuck and shuts us up.
Used inappropriately it silences us.....I think it was used as a form of coercive control in my past. Unfortunately it's still my "go to" emotion/my default position if I start doubting myself eg going to a party (well not now but a few years ago) and feeling as if I'd said the "wrong " thing. It's still something I need to work on big time but at least I now recognise that "feeling" and hopefully can reason my way out of it!
yes great discussion and I too have learnt a lot
What CarlJames said to you is absolutely spot on. I completely agree with what he said as I have been through this too and out the other side. You can do it too. If you can't manage it on your own then seek out therapy. It's very doable.
Shame for me also comes from real inadequacies, things I never learned from childhood that others take for granted. I for example, have no athletic abilities, I was naturally slow in that area, and was never encouraged to try activities outside of school. And on it goes. Also peers were wealthier and ended up that way. I feel like a personal failure when I reflect on this.
I understand completely. I had a mental list too of all the ways I felt I didn't measure up, and used to constantly remind myself of them, making myself miserable. It was almost like I was punishing myself for being inadequate or less than others (although now I realize I was being totally unfair by judging myself based on the things I wasn't good at).
I think you might find if you can accept those things you can't change, and spend more time reflecting on and nurturing the things you are good at, it will help.
A little followup to my comment. You are expressing an expectation based on comparison. Practicing empathy would help you. See the videos I posted.
I had an experience that has stuck with me in high school. I had a friend who was much wealthier than I. Her father was a well known architect. Once she said that I should not feel bad about not having much in comparison to the rest of the students. Honestly I hadn't thought about it much but then of course I was comparing myself. Much later I got to thinking about it. I am not poor. My cousin's mother was a single parent with a teaching job. My cousin shames me for being "rich". Partly because the extended family would give her extra money which would have been okay except it was more like a pity move. She passed the shame on to me. This is a great lesson in expectation and being empathic.
Lately I have been spending a lot of time in the non-tourist areas of Mexico. The amount of food choices and availability we have in the US is stunning in comparison. I couldn't go to the market and get whatever produce I wanted... in fact it seemed to me most of their produce comes to us. I needed to think differently about food. At no point in my life have I had more awareness of privilege than now with our access to vaccines and boosters. It kind of makes me feel a little guilty tbh.
You do have athletic abilities or you would have bed sores! I was always slow. Heck I am still slow. Always at the end on a hiking trip... in high school and now. Luckily I found some people to hike with that do not judge me and wait. Plus I am getting better with work. There is nothing wrong with being slow. In fact some exercises demand that you be slow like rock climbing, yoga and pilates. Just try and sprint up a cliff in crampons! There is a sport for everyone. Something will work for you.
Have a look at this.
choosingtherapy.com/childho...
And also google Dr Jonice Webb.
Yes. I found Jonice Webbs material. Great stuff.
Hi deepflow. Carolyn Spring has an excellent blog, podcast and book (called Unshame).Also Brene Brown has written a book and has done TED talks on the subject
Deer deep flow, i can totally relate to feeling shame. There is actually a book by brene brown, a researcher that researches the topic of shame, that discusses shame and how to cure it. Its a very insightful book. The book is called the gifts of imperfection. Another thing that is very helpful when dealing with shame is self compassion. Self compassion is when you look at your mistakes lovingly and understandingly like you would when disciplining a child rather than condeming and criticizing like someone would do to someone they dont like. A quote i heard that i loved is, "speak to yourself like the way you would speak to a best friend." I would recommend the book Self compassion by kristen kneff if you are interested in learning more about self compassion. Additionally, the best way to get rid of shame, as mentioned in the book of the gifts of imperfection, is to tell your mistake/shameful experience to a trusted friend/family member that will give you unconditional support and love and will reassure you that no matter what you did you are still worthy of love and respect. Shame is kept alive through secrecy and dies when spoken about to someone who is trusted and kind.
Perfect subject for me! I’m very new at my job and I got so nervous and made an idiot of myself during a video meet with my manager. I froze and couldn’t answer anything right. I’m supposed to learn all new things and be out by January. I’m feeling too much pressure and I feel so embarrassed and don’t want to show up again ! Growing up I saw my mom getting nervous over the dumbest things and she still does. My parents weren’t present in my childhood they were to into themselves and making friends so I had to figure stuff out on my own and adulthood has been a lot of shame and low self esteem. I can’t take compliments and freak out when I get criticized. It’s a constant battle, the only thing you can do is maybe read a book about this subject or maybe challenge yourself doing something new and be proud of your accomplishment. I had to do this last year and feel better. Maybe try a new activity rock climbing, cooking class, or take a trip to somewhere you never been?? Get a different perspective. As for me I’m going to try new career I’m quickly finding out office work isn’t for me. The shame lasts all day and getting unbearable. I hope that you find something new and maybe will help.
Thank you for your post. I’ve never thought too much about shame as I’ve always hid it from others and most of all from myself. This gives me so much to think about.
CarlJames and everyone thanks for taking the time share your experiences and insights! I relate so much with what everyone has said and am working a lot with self-compassion to heal. I was chatting with my brother about this last night and I was able to process a lot of what I've been feeling and thinking about my relationship with shame - which is rooted so deeply within me. One thing I've realized more clearly is that shame distorts my perception of myself. It reduces my self image to that of absolute trash. It's amazing how obvious it is that this image does not reflect who I actually am, but shame is such a painful emotion that it makes it difficult to see myself any other way. So I'm seeing a bigger picture of how to work with shame as it arises within me. Self compassion as defined by Kristen Neff is the combination of mindfulness (becoming aware of when shame arises, where you feel it in your body, what it feels like on a somatic level, and your initial impulse when it arises), kindness (responding to yourself as you would a dear friend, being understanding, nonjudgmental, recognizing that you are in pain and not blaming yourself for it, saying kind words with a kind tone, asking yourself, "What do I need?" and then trying to give that to yourself), and common humanity (recognizing that all human beings feel this way sometimes, that being human is painful, that you're not alone). What I realized last night was that when shame makes me feel small and unworthy, as certain as that may feel in that moment, I have the power to remind myself that it is not true and to remind myself of who I actually am. Who am I really? I'm old enough to understand that Life has a way of revealing the depths of my beautiful nature throughout the unfolding of my journey. I am actually more than what I can imagine. I am a child of God infused with eternal Love at the core of my being - a Love that has no limit and is ceaselessly amazing. I am courageous, inspired and determined to experience the depths and fullness of Life. I have willingly faced my demons, explored the my darkness. I possess a depth, an access to great feeling, attunement to Life Flow which is powerful and rare. And I possess a sense of humor that allows me to appreciate and enjoy life. I am a beautiful and amazing person. I have flaws and imperfections, just like everyone else. But those flaws do not indicate that I am trash, unworthy, and unlovable. In fact my flaws help connect me to humanity because we all have them. Thank goodness I'm imperfect, otherwise how could I relate with anyone? I am living a courageous life and doing a great job. Thanks for reading. I needed to express this to myself and to the world.
Feeling shame feels shameful so we avoid discussing it! Brene Brown is a shame researcher and professor. She studied it long before she started writing books, podcasts and making public appearances.
I worked with a Brene trained therapist for a long time. It is hard work. A lot is about learning resilient strategies when you feel shame. Feeling shame is normal. It is what you do with it. Resilience as in thinking through whether it is shame or guilt, deciding what your reaction is which means slowing down before overreacting and finding ways to be kind to yourself. They call it shame storm or vulnerability hangover when you do something vulnerable and then later feel terrible and question every thing you said or did in that moment. The more you practice empathy the more you are able to forgive yourself because it turns out everyone experiences similar but different things. If you can understand how someone else feels when it is different you start to understand that you are okay. It is kind of hard for me to explain in words. Brene does a much better job!
Background:
youtube.com/watch?v=qQiFfA7...
Cute short on empathy vs sympathy. Empathy is the antidote to shame. Empathy for yourself and others.
All good answers, Sir........
Please take this for what it's worth to you.
We have an Enemy whose been around since the begining. Bottom line, this enemy wants us to blame our loving Creator, our Father and THAT can cause extreme guilt.
Even if we never mentally formulate negative thoughts about GOD or his purpose, our innermost conclusions will condemn us. Our Enemy wins.
Anxiety, depression, & childhood trauma are tools a cruel enemy effectively wields with delight. The best remedy is to learn more about GOD, the Source of Love and Truth, whose lofty purpose benefits us..........
Agape
💞
I am a musician and fiction writer who nearly always explores shame and the feeling of abjection. I tell myself I'm vindicating characters who are reviled, but it is always possible I am only redeeming myself.
We try to become saviors so that we can save ourselves. Any person I am able to help has met a traveler in time.
Someone on this site recommended that I read Bessel van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score and it has been a revelation. We can internalize hurt in ways that our chemistry distorts, so it is crucial to give ourselves a break. To tell ourselves we have the right to be as pleased with ourselves as a cat is pleased with herself. My girlfriend has clinical depression, and I try my hardest to make her feel loved and gifted and beautiful every day. Sometimes it works. I must learn not to beat myself up when it doesn't.
I often fantasize about going back in time and preventing the suicide of someone I loved. I dream of doing more for the people I tried to help on 9/11, of stopping the blackshirts who beat and killed ancestors on my mother's side of the family. Of finding a way to console my mother, who wept for so much of her life. I have those same conversations in my head, of finding a way to stop a rapist by showing up suddenly, of warning someone not to do the thing that ultimately would void her life.
But I must forgive myself after a lifetime of trying to condition myself, of memorizing ways to treat people better. Even now, I can't stop reading books and watching films about oppression and trauma, perhaps because validating the pain of those characters is a way of vindicating myself. Perhaps empathy is the only choice, even for those who didn't receive it themselves.
I love this post and thought that the poster should have no shame.
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