Rank Neutraceuticals / Off-Label Drug... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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Rank Neutraceuticals / Off-Label Drugs By Most Likely Most Beneficial

jazj profile image

I'm curious about the opinions of members here on how they would currently rank Neutraceutical and off-label use drugs in order of highest benefit potential (most confirming clinical trial evidence combined with actual therapeutic or synergistic therapeutic effect) in slowing/stopping PCa progression?

I cannot yet speak from long-time actual experience (even still it's hard to pinpoint what works and what doesn't if you are doing multiple things at once) but based on lots of reading here on this forum and on Pubmed, etc., I would venture to guess:

1) Plant-based diet (or very close to it) combined with exercise - maybe not technically a neutraceutical but I would feel negligent if I didn't include it. (Most likely more significant as a preventative measure than in an intervention phase - but basically a no brainer in my opinion.)

2) Statin combined with blood glucose lowering Berberine or Metformin (No high-quality evidence Berberine or Metformin has significant benefit alone.)

3) Statin alone

4) Sulforaphane (free stabilized or Glucoraphanin with active Myrosinase) - weak on clinical study data but sounds very promising from a biochemistry point of view and initial studies sound like it may be worthwhile (the UK Broccoli soup study and the French Study using 60mg Prostaphane)

5) Modified Citrus Pectin (MCP - Pectasol)

The above 5 I personally feel are most significant. The remaining I think have weaker/conflicting evidence or no evidence of positive benefit on slowing PCa progression.

6) Curcumin

7) Pomegranate

8) Lycopene (only in form of tomato concentrated products - paste or sauce, not supplements or raw tomatoes.)

9) Acetyl L-Carnitine

10) EGCG (Grean tea catechin)

11) Vitamin D2

12) Melatonin

Neutraceuticals to AVOID?

1) Selenium

2) Vitamin E

3) Vitamin B-12

Interactions with pharmaceuticals/treatments to be wary of (other than don't take antioxidants during radiotherapy)????

For those new on the Neutraceutical Research Wagon, this is a pretty good summary although not necessarily cutting edge up to date as I'm sure there's quite a vetting process before the NIH adds new info to this PDQ.

cancer.gov/about-cancer/tre...

Is there any other 3rd party or Oncologist that has published their own Neutraceutical PDQ based on the very latest cutting-edge research? Or other than the NCI PDQ are we left to piecing together Pubmed Articles with Forum Posts?

The other big question is, in general, if you are combining too many antioxidants and/or anti-inflammatories, can the combination essentially backfire and HELP the cancer progress? Wish I would have majored in Biochemistry at this point. I do know Pro Vitamina A Antioxidants (like Vitamin E and Vitamin A) have been shown to promote cancer. But each substance can have different biochemical mechanisms.

Some of these substances have been shown to lower Testosterone/ADT, or AR binding. So another question is do nutraceuticals that have a mild ADT-like effect essentially accelerate the cancer to become castration-resistant like ADT but just to a slower degree?

This study I found particularly interesting as they seem to just throw everything at the wall and see what stuck - nothing. (Also seems to contradict other studies regarding Sulforphane.)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

The overall pattern I'm seeing is that Prostate cancer is essentially fueled by Testosterone/DHT and Lipids. So anything that lowers either of those has the most potential to slow the progression. But as we know, at least on the former, the cancer eventually mutates so it can progress without that particular fuel.

37 Replies

If you want to see something strange that is working for me look at Ostarine, first designed as cancer drug as it suppresses T, currently working for me as ADT is beginning to fail

We consume mainly plant based organic no alcohol. We treat ourselves now and again and believe the extra five years he has had is also because we have little stress, exercise regularly and laugh a lot. Not everyone follows the same recipe. Keep doing what gives you great results.👍🏻

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to babychi

Low stress / mindfulness I might put at #2 (even though it's not something you ingest.) Forgot to add that. Great point.

There's a lot of individual threads on many of these substances individually. It can be overwhelming.

MateoBeach profile image
MateoBeach in reply to jazj

Oh yes, drink deeply of the Soma life nourishing potency that flows so easily in deep meditation for just a few minutes a day. That is my number one support for my life. That is why I teach deep authentic and effortless meditation. It is beyond mindfulness altogether. Cancer patients can learn it for free. My gift. Svatantra life.blog or meditationbend.com. Not soliciting, just offering.

Read your blog... Thanks for sharing. Lots of wisdom from the ancient East.

Laughing Guy sits next to my front door.

I have many posts on vitamins, minerals & other supplements, so I will not address those.

But drugs:

Metformin

Lipophilic statin

Incidentally, did you mean D3 - not D2?

-Patrick

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to pjoshea13

D2 per the National Cancer Institute reference in their PDQ.

cancer.gov/about-cancer/tre...

Personally I suspect my PCa occurrence was mainly attributed to part hereditary (my Dad had it), and high (untreated) cholesterol for many years despite diet and exercise along with low Vitamin D levels living in the PNW. Just a guess. But wondering why you got it doesn't really provide any benefit for the future. Stress (job/divorce) and more like avg 3/drinks around dinner every night instead of the recommended 2 probably didn't help either.

pjoshea13 profile image
pjoshea13 in reply to jazj

I had a neighbor who was prescribed vitamin D - he gave her 35,000 IU D2. Perhaps because D3 doses don't go that high.

Natural D3 is available otc at low prices. There is no reason to use D2 & some reasons not to use it. In fact, D2 is recognized as being less effective.

I guess vegans might prefer it.

MateoBeach profile image
MateoBeach in reply to pjoshea13

If one cannot decide, whether vegetarian or not. Can't go wrong with an hour in the morning sun in a tropical latitude. On the beach. Like MateoBeach.

Mateo. At the Beach. San Jose del Cabo, Mexico
Justfor_ profile image
Justfor_ in reply to jazj

I will second your suspicion regarding high cholesterol. I too attibute my PCa to my familial hypercholesterlemia (350 under no medication regardless of diet). I had been taking statins on-off since the early 80s.

Good Luck. Most of your answers will be found over about 6+ years of Posts by myself[Nalakrats] and pjoshea13. What you are asking for--a full-blown organized consultation, does not fit within the time that I allow for HU.

Nalakrats

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Nalakrats

Not asking for detailed information, citations, or rehashes of discussions. Just a simple numbered list.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to jazj

Simple for you but not for me--everything I do is individualized. My own routine changes all the time, and changes based on what phase of a Vacation, or Drug I might be on. And all of our Pathologies and Mutations are different. I have for example 4 different cancer species. Do you know yours? Look at your list you want evaluated, I can tell you I take about 80% of what you listed, and probably at one time or another used them all over the years. But stopped some and added others. Like Honokiol--and then I have to give you a whole research history. What I do with others, is I take 2 or 3 supplements at a time and I react to requests that way. I do this 40 hours a week my next birthday will be 80--and I need to have members who want some help from me to keep it short. I have well over 560 followers, that follow every keystroke, and there is a couple of thousand that just hit me up once in a while and are not followers. I am overwhelmed daily--Saturday, is my sabbath and I do not work. And come July 4th give or take I take a 3-month sabbatical, where I answer no one except emergencies. Start with a couple you are not sure of. I still would have to evaluate your entire Pca profile. Please understand.

Nalakrats

I’ve said it before but the title of our subsection of the forum is Advanced Prostate Cancer.

It seems we have a wide mix of people here. BCR. Local. Etc.

Then people like myself. 1621 PSA, skeletal mets from skull to shins, lymph nodes exploding from pelvis, abdomen, chest, up to collar bone at diagnosis.

I am not complaining and for gods’ sake not bragging. I just want to point out that I have a couple of estimated expiration dates hanging over me that are not too far out in the future.

I am really glad I found this site a couple years ago.

I am not happy to see it so often filled with irrelevant posts fueled by the almighty internet.

My wife has been damaged by YouTube. She has not had her covid vaccinations. She thinks she has “learned” more than what the rest of us know. She feels they are risky and she is waiting for the Novavax vaccination to be approved and rolled out.

I have been lucky that she has not used YouTube and the internet very much to do BS research on prostate cancer. This morning though she thought she had a revelation. “A doctor on you tube explained the role of zinc in prostate cancer”.

The poster says he wishes he were a biologist. I wish he was and combine it with a medical degree and maybe he would find better ways to spend his time on earth. Or maybe he would just become another YouTube doctor spouting garble.

Some here when spreading the word of diet, off counter meds, and supplements although I don’t agree with their beliefs some of them do have a good understanding of biology, cell structure, etc. and I accidently learn things from them in the midst of unsubstantiated theories, studies of something they think will help keep cancer at bay.

With my advanced diagnosis this is not the time to “turn my life around”. If that would have made a difference it should have been done 30 or more years ago. Too many broken DNA strands.

I am enjoying a balanced life with an emphasis on love with my wife, son, grandkids. I eat the healthy stuff my wife makes and add whatever else I feel like eating within reason. I exercise the best I can.

dhccpa profile image
dhccpa in reply to CAMPSOUPS

Being metastatic to bones myself, I hear you.

But this poster asked reasonable questions, and everyone can weigh in.

I generally avoid videos, preferring written material from many sources. The BS detector should be on high alert at all times.

But this poster was well within the bounds of reasonableness. I appreciate your point of view as well.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall any poster on this forum advocating alternative methods instead of SOC treatment.

You have obviously done a lot of work, and that is commendable. But one of the most useful things to understand is "levels of evidence" and GRADE.

cebm.ox.ac.uk/resources/lev...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

You may also find this useful:

prostatecancer.news/2021/07...

Once you understand these principles of medical research, you will waste less time on the kind of worthless studies you have used to compile your list because you will understand why they are worthless to patients.

I hope you will continue to research more productively.

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Tall_Allen

So are you saying that your list would be blank?

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply to jazj

I am saying that the data do not support your conclusions once you acknowledge that the level of evidence determines the truth.

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Tall_Allen

I wasn't asking for comment on my opinion. I was curious about other people's conclusions. Especially yours. So are you saying you don't think there is sufficient evidence to indicate anything has significant benefit other than pharma drugs?

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply to jazj

I think sulforaphane may be good except during radiation, immunotherapy and chemo. Many supplements (supplements are drugs) have been proven to be ineffective, interfere with tests, interfere with the microbiome, have unknown interactions with each other and otherwise effective and safe drugs. Plus, because they are unregulated, there is no quality control. Their use is best avoided. Consider that you may be harming patients by encouraging their use.

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Tall_Allen

It is understandable the Medical Professionals would take a conservative/pragmatic approach. But it is equally understandable to me that many Cancer patients would do almost anything to improve their condition as long as there wasn't evidence it could be harmful. The stat I just saw was that at least half of all cancer patients begin taking a supplement they weren't taking before, spending a total of $36 billion annually. It's the grey area that is tough where there's no "good" evidence either way. Virtually all the studies are short-term. So they may find something made no statistically significant difference in the short term but was actually harmful in the long term.

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply to jazj

Many cancer patients are indeed desperate, and many will take whatever cockamamie pill that anyone who seems to be scientific offers. They, and you, have no idea what they are really doing to themselves and their cancer biochemically.

There is no "good evidence either way" as you would understand if you understood levels of evidence. It's not just about limited term studies with small sample size, although that's part of it. I tried to educate you, but you are apparently uninterested.

I don't have time to refute all the pseudoscience that others post on this site.

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Tall_Allen

So I take it you and Nalakrats probably have a very different opinion on MCP? (LOL :)

I think you're underestimating how well I've understood what you've been saying. Curiosity does not necessarily translate to taking any actions. I would guess your advice in general mimics what most top Oncologists would say.

I also can guess how someone with your knowledge that has probably been in this forum for quite a long time can grow weary of trying to educate the steady influx of newer users.

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Tall_Allen

Seems I overlooked Modfied Citrus Pectin (Pectasol). Appears to be very popular with a lot of people here? Nalakrats seems very positive about it. What's your opinion on it?

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Tall_Allen

I understand those principles. Very good for people to understand them.

Ran across this 2016 article from a Doctor at John Hopkins which is extremely well written and confirms common sense you run into when you start digging deep into supplements. It compliments the study quality information you provided I think. Anyone intersted in the herb/supplement perspective should definitely read this.

Challenges of Conducting Clinical Trials of Natural Products to Combat Cancer

hematologyandoncology.net/

I think some people have taken my main question further than I intended. Just asking for a simple numbered list. No need to add detailed information or citations to back your list up. This reminds me of back in school when the students are asked a question and no one raises their hand because they are fearful of giving a wrong answer. LOL.

CAMPSOUPS profile image
CAMPSOUPS in reply to jazj

Child: "daddy how big is a giant"?

Dad: " There are no giants".

Child: "yea but if there were giants how big would they be"?

Most likely most beneficial is a misnomer to begin with.

dhccpa profile image
dhccpa in reply to jazj

You dipped your toe into a well-planted minefield! Might as well dive on in.

Welcome to the swamp, jazj. There are, no doubt, some jewels buried in the mud. But which and where and in what combination? There's the rub. My only advice is to weigh the incomplete information supporting benefit vs. the risks. Both are often very low. So it is a personal decision absent definitive answers. " The lack of definitive evidence of efficacy is NOT evidence for lack of efficacy." It is simply not known. So for me, natural food derived substances with no evidence of toxicity merit consideration. Not all here agree.I don't think you are shouldering much additional risk by taking (for example) curcumin or quercetin and a few others. We live with the results and probably will never know if there is any difference. So there are no wrong answers.

Mmmm. Burgers. Beer (or wine). While yes I do! But veggies and salads on the side, just in case.

I think you mean "nutraceuticals" as in "nutrition." Any responses you may receive will be opinions, not science.

Starting in my clean teens, ate my greens, ate my beans, stayed lean, got vaccines, met my queen, named Kathleen, new routine, changed the scene, now eat ice cream (chocolate chip ice cream - two scoops).....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 05/13/2022 1:54 PM DST

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to j-o-h-n

Love that!

WSOPeddie profile image
WSOPeddie in reply to j-o-h-n

I'll put you down as a done-it-all rather than a know-it-all.

j-o-h-n profile image
j-o-h-n in reply to WSOPeddie

I once knew it all .......but my meds cured me of that........ (thanks)...

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 05/13/2022 10:34 PM DST

Another gem of a paper I found on this topic. The two tables showing all the supplements, one showing possible adverse effects and interactions, the other summarizing studies is a great summary resource. Most importantly it was from 2018 reasonably recent for a comprehensive review like this.

Supporting Evidence, Potential Adverse Effects, and known Drug

Interactions of the Complementary Alternative Medicines which

are Frequently used by Prostate Cancer Patients

clinmedjournals.org/article...

Dear Jazj,

I rarely post here. Particularly when there is an extremely long thread with very polarized opinions on it.

But your last email citing a paper from the “International-Archives-of-Urology-and-Complications” and that caught my eye. From what I can tell this is a new open access ("predatory") journal. That means that authors pay to published. I can't find evidence that the journal is even listed in PubMed or that it has a official impact factor. [Can anyone pull up info on that?] So...

I encourage folks, who cite papers here, to:

1. note whether the paper is listed in PubMed.

2. post under your real names to give credibility to your postings.

3. if you have medical or scientific training, tell us.

Just some passing suggestions....

Richard Wassersug, PhD

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