Current Consensus on Metformin and Berberine?

[jazj]

I've been studying Metformin (not Berberine, yet). My conclusion reading all the latest studies, especially the large meta-studies, is that evidence is weak on Metformin having a significant positive effect BY ITSELF.

There appears to be significant evidence it has a positive effect when used synergistically.

1. Time to biochemical recurrence or distant metastases appears to be lengthened when combined with a statin.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl....

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/320...

....on and on if you search around.

2. It definitely appears to mitigate the metabolic syndrome side effect of ADT. Seems like taking it during ADT is a no brainer?

3. Definitely appears to have a radiosensitizing effect during radiotherapy. Has anyone only used Metformin during RT to avoid ADT side effects or is the benefit of taking both together higher enough to really want to do both during RT?

The downside of it is that it is counter productive to the health benefits in general you get from exercise. Although that appears to be at a doses of => 1,700 mg a day. You can always go off it around the time you do exercise if you aren't diabetic.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/315...

I'm wondering if maybe a low dose, like 500mg a day (2X 250 or 500 extended release) on an indefinite basis has only the potential to help. Or would that dose be too low to make any significant difference (in someone that is non-diabetic?)

I know with Metformin you probably want to occasionally take a B12 supplement for good measure.

What's the skinny on Berberine? What's the downside?

[Tall_Allen]

Here's what we know so far, subject to confirmation by STAMPEDE:

prostatecancer.news/2019/11...

[jazj in reply to Tall_Allen]

Ya, that's an excellent summary backing up my own conclusion thus far. Thanks. I consider a single trial < 300 in each cohort to not be very high powered though so I'd say using it during radiotherapy, there's not enough conclusive information. So one thing I gather in general is that at low doses, there's not a lot of risk of potential downside.

Where's the summary of all the Berberine related studies?

[Tall_Allen in reply to jazj]

When one RCT doesn't have enough sample size, one can do a meta-analysis., although STAMPEDE will be definitive.

I ignore lower levels of evidence. Everyone should - it leads to erroneous decisions most of the time. I haven't seen any clinical trials of berberine - just lab studies. Worthless for patients.

[KocoPr in reply to Tall_Allen]

Thanks TA, that was enlightening, im giving ip on metformin as I definitely have stomach and diarrhea from it.

[Hidden]

I conducted blood glucose tests with berberine, metformin, exercise, etc.

Berberine didn't do anything. Metformin did a little. Exercise did a lot. Even very mild cardio (HR 80-100 BPM) worked well. Eat and then do light cardio for 15 minutes or so. Dampens out the blood sugar spike.

My MO thinks that there might be something to metformin. My first urologist at Mayo wrote an article about it and did some research. But the only proven benefit is to lower blood glucose.

[jazj in reply to Hidden]

What were your dosage regimens for Berberine and Metformin?

[Hidden in reply to jazj]

1500 mg/day of metformin and I think it was 2400 mg/day of berberine.I did short term BG tests. If there was a long term effect I would have missed it.

For the testing I used 850 mg of metformin, or 500 mg of berberine, or 80-100 bpm cardio, or high intensity weight lifting, 5 grams of fiber, 5 grams of olive oil, and some combinations. I also mixed some cacao in with some tests.

I would take BG measurements every 15 minutes and wait at least a day between each test. I did them after a minimum of a 12-hour fast. Berb was about the same as the baseline but was shifted. Metformin showed a small decrease. Exercise was the big one.

Short-term and I didn't repeat many of them. And results might only apply to me in a fasted state after my test meal (the test meal was a bagel with half an ounce of peanut butter).

I didn't followup on it much since my BG is fairly low without doing anything (75-90 fasted and goes up to about 120-140 after a high carb meal. But normally I bicyle after a high carb meal so it probably doesn't go much over 100, if that.

blood glucose/supplement and exercise tests

[London441 in reply to Hidden]

Wow RSH1, 80-100 bpm cardio? Gratefully I have no experience with that. What a great thing to do for the de-conditioned though. The most improvement is always on the front end.

I wish guys would buy in more to not only the benefits of exercise, but its synergistic effects with metformin and pretty much everything else.

Metformin may or may not be instrumental in more than blood sugar control, such as delaying BCR, time to distant metastasis etc. Exercise is proven to do all of it and more.

Taking metformin on ADT a no brainer? Not for me. Sufficient exercise and clean diet kept my blood sugar well under control, but more importantly provided a host of other health benefits.

Yet I certainly would have added metformin if I wasn’t able to do it through exercise and diet alone.

For those who need metformin great. But I wouldn’t just take it as a matter of course any more than I’d go on statins with low LDL and triglycerides. And I would definitely not take either metformin OR a statin without exercising.

Dedicated exercise is the superior antidote to every one of the side effects—and the resulting co morbidities - caused by ADT, radiation, chemo, all of it.

[Hidden in reply to London441]

Getting your heart rate up to 100 is ridiculously easy. I'm sure you get yours much higher when you work out or bike.

I don't need metformin for blood sugar control. Like yours, my blood sugar is low to begin with and I can knock down the spikes by exercising when I have carbs.

I think metformin might act on mTOR. My MO thinks that it might help in certain situations. She isn't sold on it but since I haven't noticed many sides I add it to my ADT phases (if I had to choose between exercise and metformin... Lol, only one choice and it isn't a drug).

I have genetically high cholesterol so, even with lots of exercise, my lipids weren't pretty. With a statin, my overall cholesterol dropped to 130-140.

I think in the back of their minds, guys who don't exercise and don't eat right know that they should eat better and that exercise would be beneficial for them. But the conscious mind will convince you that it is okay to do what is easiest. Fortunately for me that is exercise and eating well. For some of my friends, it's like pulling teeth. Not going to happen on a regular basis.

[timotur]

Berberine degrades AR signaling by a direct activation of AMPK leading to apoptosis. I used it during HDR-BT/IMRT treatement to sensitize PCa cells to the radiation .

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[jazj]

Metformin, especially at higher doses, appears to have some possible moderate side effects or interactions with other drugs, or the counter exercise effect I previously mentioned.

What's the possible side effect profile look like on the Berberine? I would guess it's very similar as it appears the two act in similar ways?

I also cannot find any clinical trials with human PCa patients and Berberine. This would explain why there's no summary findings page hear on HealthUnlocked.

[jazj]

Not prostate cancer specific but might add this one to the Metformin page. Released just 6 weeks ago. My hunch is still if it does have a benefit, it's when combined with something else.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/353...

Metformin does not significantly improve the survival of patients with advanced or unresectable cancer, regardless of cancer type and region. Open Science Framework： DOI 10.17605/OSF.IO/SPKE8.

[jazj]

Here's 2019 regarding potential benefit of taking Metformin during Radiotherapy. No benefit.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/310...

[KocoPr in reply to jazj]

The only thing is the subjects in the study was between years 2000-2007, and im guessing here that the 113 patients were on metformin because of type 2 diabetes which is not a good prognosticator of survival from prostate cancer.“Results: A total of 2055 eligible cases, including 113 who were on metformin, were identified, with a median follow-up of 95.7 months. There were no differences in age, initial prostate-specific antigen level, Gleason score, T-stage, D'Amico risk class or duration of androgen deprivation therapy (ADT) between patients who were or were not on metformin. “

[timotur]

Thank you Sir-- your posts on the biochemistry of CTC's and senescence has brought awareness of attempting to block the signaling when we're in the clear-- as such I'm taking Berberine and MCP and doing some intermittent fasting, among other things to build the immune system.

[EdBar]

I’ve been taking 2000mg of Metformin daily for about 7 years now, originally prescribed by Snuffy Myers. My BMI remains normal despite being on triple ADT for nearly 8 years, and my G9 Stage 4 cancer is undetectable at last testing about a week ago. I’ll continue to use it as part of a “multidimensional” treatment (Snuffy’s term).As for B12, all I can say is my current PCa specialist, Dr. Sartor says to avoid it - prostate cancer loves it - his term, not mine.

Ed

[Hidden in reply to EdBar]

There's the rub. PC may not benefit from B12 but your brain health will suffer without it.

[EdBar in reply to Hidden]

I’ll just rely on food sources for B12 no shots or supplements.

[KocoPr]

Anyone have a good source of berberine?I harvest it myself and have extracted it with alcohol, but my concern is the bioavailability? I also have bought nano berberine from oneplanetnutrition.com out of naples fl, and also bought adjunct3 from ultrabotanica.com promoted by Joe Tippens.

The nano berberine I assume is via an air dryer, and there source i am skeptical about because the color is brown not the bright yellow i am used to. I wrote to them about it and the said the color naturally lightens during the nano process. They obviously didn’t read my question because it was dark brown not yellow (it didn’t brighten, it got darker).

The oncoadjunct in their words “delivers LPS™ bioactive Berberine using whey protein as the scaffold.”

I have made my own lipo vit C before so i am wondering if i can powder my harvested berberine and lipo it myself.

Decent article on different extraction methods and mechanisms of action for different diseases

frontiersin.org/articles/10...

I do buy from life extension and trust them, but I see no berberine products from them.

[Burk in reply to KocoPr]

I'm using Berberine from Luma Nutrition. Rated #1 by some. It seems to be a high-quality product.

[SteveTheJ]

Very confusing. What are you expecting Metformin to do? I take it for diabetes along with Erleada. It's causing no problems that I know of.

[KocoPr]

I was taking it for blocking glucose uptake by cancer cells plus mTOR pathways and supposedly helps P53 genes

[jazj]

Just curious if anyone taking Berberine has also monitored their Blood Glucose and what results they got at what dosages. It seems the only reason to use it would be if your MO or PCP refused to prescribe it (even after providing them with evidence.)