Advanced Prostate Cancer

Antioxidant and metastasis

Some information about the possible effect of antioxidants in the dissemination of the cancer.

Since I read these articles I stopped all supplements. No difference in the progression of the cancer and a lot of money saved.

cancer.gov/news-events/canc...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/244...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/264...

I quote:

"Based on the available evidence, Dr. Bergö said he was extremely concerned with the aggressive marketing of antioxidants to cancer patients. The data strongly suggest that using antioxidants “could be really dangerous in lung cancer and melanoma, and possibly other cancers,” he said. “And because there’s no strong evidence that antioxidants are beneficial, cancer patients should be encouraged to avoid supplements after they have a diagnosis.”

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My MO is generally ok with most things but tells me no way on antioxidants on chemo. He said it help the cancer cells avoid thw chemo.

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It seems that some oxidative process is needed to kill the cancer cells, by chemo and I believe by the immune system. I am planning to look for more scientific data particularly how the immune system takes care of the cancer cells besides using the T cells or how the T cells are able to kill the cancer cells.

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I was taking 20+ supplements but I stopped all prior to and during chemo. I'm back to about 10 mostly related to bone strengthening. I wonder if the ones I was taking did any good at all with my very advanced condition and I guess it's possible they were doing some harm. It's such a mine field.

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I agree, I stopped everything. There are not solid data indicating a real benefit in the long term (survival). Besides since there are not a good control of all these supplements, one never know what one is taking.

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I'm sure there are some good ones, but how is a non-scientist like me supposed to work it out. There are some guys on this site that really know their stuff, who seem to have a very stable condition thanks in part to their supplements, but my MO and other medical attendants offer me zero in terms of figuring out what to use and what not to use, probably because they have no idea. I've come across some naturopaths but they provide no evidence and try to load you up with literally thousands of dollars worth of stuff. It would be nice if we had somewhere safe and reputable to get advice in this area.

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Ask the guys who really know the stuff for the links to the articles which support the benefit of all these antioxidants. The biochemistry of anti oxidants and cancer is well beyond my comprehension of what I know of biochemistry,

Reading about this subject if seems to me that to kill cancer cells using the immune system of the body it is necessary some oxidation process.

I just would like to see the articles these guys use to support to take antioxidants as a secondary protection against the progression or dissemination of cancer.

I could not find any article that convince me of the benefit once you got the cancer and it has spread in the body. This does not mean that it may be many articles showing benefit of antioxidants as these guys proclaim.

As my old professor of physiology used to say : SHOW ME THE DATA.

I hope it will happen and the data will be shown. So far the data I have found indicates that in laboratory controlled conditions the antioxidants may have a deleterious effect in metastatic cancer.

best

Raul

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Is magnesium or Vitamin D3 considered a suspect antioxidant on the basis of the above links to the studies on Pub Med?

Rich

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I believe they are not. I take vit D3 and Magnesium. I think that Omega 3 are not antioxidants either.

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I have had 3 rounds of chemo. MO didnt offer any opinions but pharmacists reviewed my supplements and told me to stop taking those with antioxidant activity for 2 days prior and 2 days after chemo. I have obviously done what they asked and good news is that PSA has reduced from 47 to 7.5 after first 2 cycles. I am still using supplements between times but there is a burning question now - am I wasting time and money?

But the more critical question relates to diet. I am on a plant based diet full of nutrition and in the case of the berries I include in my daily fruit salad breakfast, full of antioxidants. If antioxidants protect cancer cells more than they protect normal cells, there is an implication here that I should ditch my healthy diet and start eating at McDonalds and KFC. This is very confusing.

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Haz,

you are exactly right...Warren Buffett says he beat his PCa with 6 cokes a day plus a DQ double cheese burger with fries a DQ Milkshake and a DQ Blizzard.

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It is confusing to me because of the lack of data I have.

I think it is always good to eat a healthy diet. There are many other benefits besides the cancer. There is also some data showing that a plant based diet (Ornish diet) may have some benefit in watchful waiting patients.

I f you are eating a healthy diet you should not change for a junk diet.

One should no forget that because ADT and age many patients in this therapy die from cardiovascular complications and not from PC.

Healthy diet, exercise etc may help to survive longer because of the whole body benefits of this type behavior.( less diabetes type II, less hypertension, less atherosclerosis , less metabolic syndrome etc. etc.).

Best wishes

Raul

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Raul,

you are right...never take any supplement that interfers with ROS if you have cancer....chemo..radiation ..exercise all increase ROS which is why they work in helping to kill cancer cells....anyone can do an experiment using PSA....when I was taking Casodex I did the following experiment...I was taking Casodex 3 months on and 3 months off....during one off cycle I continued taking about 20 supplements and the PSA doubled...later on during another off cycle I stopped all supplements and ate fried chicken..cheeseburgers...red meat...french fries..and the PSA went down...so, eating a diet that increases oxidation might be good for a cancer patient...for heart heath a did take omega 3 and 7

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Raul,

A minority of men believe that the antioxidants from a "healthy" diet may coax cancer cells into normalcy (become better differentiated). It's an extraordinarily optimistic position in my view.

Typically, cancer cells are killed by some process or other that involves reactive oxygen species [ROS]. We want oxidation.

Luckily, antioxidants at pharmacological doses become pro-oxidant.

You have to take high doses, in the hope that cancer cells are easier to harm than normal cells.

-Patrick

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Patrick,

have you ever taken a supplement that resulted in a PSA decrease...I never have..but IMO Pomegranite + Resveratrol + Apple Peel Extract + Curcumin may slow doubling time.

Gus

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Gus,

No decrease in PSA, but a lengthening of doubling time. I started (post 'curative' treatment) with a PSADT of 3 months. At one point it got up to 27 months (with no conventional treatment). Those days are gone, alas.

-Patrick

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Doc, interesting article. Speaking from my personal experience, when I underwent a six month chemotherapy and hormone therapy trial fourteen years ago, my Medical Oncologist to great care to inform me not to take any supplements and to heavily stay away from anti-oxidants. I asked him if the reason was the trial and he replied that his research reflected that they interfered with the treatment of PCa.

I also asked him about the five orals included in the treatment plan. His response was that each had PCa killing attributes. I see that all are being used in conjunction with current treatment, however, not all together at the same time.

In particular I would like to bring up Predisone. After reading group posts, most have said their doctors add Predisone to ease the effects of chemotherapy drugs. Yet, when I specifically talked about this drug, and I asked, knowing that 30 mg a day for 180 days would cause me to gain weight, his answer was different. He said that Prednisone had PCa cell killing attributes. Small price to pay for gaining 90 pounds as I have managed to take 70 pounds off.

So now I am wondering why the differential in explanation. Oh, I believe my guy considering my results. Not many have had mets resolved, able to stop hormone therapy after six years and continue with undetectables ever since.

I believe the difference may be related to early aggressive chemotherapy rather than late stage chemotherapy; i.e., strong body with minimal tumor size verses weak body with expanded tumor growth since chemotherapy plays havoc on the immune system. Reinforced with this statement that we found out how to kill cancer cells in 1978. The problem was that the treatment was killing the patient. The trick is how to kill cancer while not killing the patient. Researchers have very methodically tried to find and reconcile dosage with results. I believe that the drugs which I use in their dosage works. Any way that I slice and dice the mouse, the cancer is being killed.

I make these comments not be critical of any method or any Physician, but rather to generate a positive discussion. Perhaps this isn't the forum.... Perhaps I and the eight others with complete response to treatment from the initial study are the exceptions and extremely lucky and fortunate to be "guinea pigs"......

I take note of your aggressive and very successful treatment in Germany; now under varying degrees of trial here in the States. Congratulations. I also take note of the mathematics professor who independently studied Dr. Liebowitz' high testosterone treatment and and his own success in fighting Advanced Prostate Cancer and now advocacy for the Liebowitz treatment. Each, and there are others, looking with success for new scientific study to fight their own disease. All the while shuttering at those who embarked on a non-scientific approach with Internet alternatives.

GD

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I have been wondering about whether antioxidants might be contraindicated for cancer... Whether they might protect cancer cells.

Maybe they do.

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My rule on supplements is to only take those that have proven or suspected benefits through clinical trials or observational studies. On of the best such trials was with Pomi-t, which I take twice a day. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

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Where do you purchase Pomi-t?

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I guess it's Anti the Anti.

Good Luck and Good Health.

j-o-h-n Sunday 02/18/2018 4:12 PM EST

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No really, the intention is to motivate discussion in a controversial topic. I understand why people take these supplements, but they have to be informed of different opinions and facts.

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It's just my silly humor....

I think you're terrific on this site....

Good Luck and Good Health.

j-o-h-n Sunday 02/18/2018 5:10 PM EST

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When it said antioxidants is it talking about supplements only or is that real vegetables and real fruit too.

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All antioxidants but to me the problematic ones are the supplements because of concentration or quantity of the antioxidants. I do not know if a good diet contains too much antioxidants if one eats in moderation.

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Which antioxidants would you avoid? The only supplement I takes which actually says antioxidant on the bottle is CoQ10 which I thought was good for heart health.

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I'm still unclear about this. Could we revive the post please.

- Are all antioxidants evil? Res/fruits/Pomegranade/etc? are there any scientific fact/anecdotal evidence to back it up?

- Second, in regard to Alpha Lipoic acid, a lot of sources point to its benefits. But it seems to have BOTH effects [1]

"As a result of application of alpha lipoic acid, which acts as

both pro-oxidant and natural antioxidant,.." what are your thoughts?

[1] journalcmpr.com/sites/defau...

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