Is anyone on ADT taking collagen for joint pain and bone health? I am stage four on Eldergaurd (Lupron) and Xtandi, a met in the hips and one in the spine. I am taking several supplements including calcium and D3. Should I be taking collagen?
Is anyone on ADT taking collagen for... - Advanced Prostate...
Is anyone on ADT taking collagen for joint pain and bone health?
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de-luke
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I am, but for other arthritic conditions.... Life Is Good and pain reminds you that you are still alive--just older..
in reply to Shooter1
OH yah! It punches us in the face 😳❤️
I am taking collagen for other reasons. I have never had bone or joint pain. Not exactly scientific, just my experience
Did anyone find a good brand of collagen? I see that an additive, Hyaluronic Acid is bad for PC
in reply to de-luke
Nalakrats says it’s good for us! I’m on it too.
A copy of Mayo Clinic information on collagen here below:
From a general health perspective, it is important to ensure adequate protein within your diet. As you age, your protein needs increase slightly to maintain lean body mass. Consuming foods that contain the primary amino acids that make up collagen may help support skin, hair, nail and joint health as you age.
These foods are good sources of glycine, proline, lysine and hydroxyproline:
Bone broth.
Unflavored gelatin.
Dairy, especially parmesan cheese.
Legumes.
Non-genetically modified soy, such as tofu.
Spirulina.
Animal sources, such as red meat, poultry, pork, fish and eggs.
To support the formation of collagen, it is also important to ensure adequate intake of foods that contain vitamin C, zinc, copper and manganese. These nutrients can be found by eating a varied diet rich in fruits and vegetables, including green leafy and root vegetables, along with nuts and seeds — especially hemp, pumpkin and cashews.
Finally, being mindful of what can damage collagen production is important. Such factors include excess sugar intake, smoking, sun exposure or ultraviolet light, and environmental pollutants.
in reply to CAMPSOUPS
Initially I started by attempting to make my own bone broth . What a mess . I eat mostly vegan . Tofu and legumes for sure .
in reply to CAMPSOUPS
I did much sun chlorealla my first years . Then Japan wasn’t good for it after the nuclear release.
CAMPSOUPS in reply to
Oh. More power to you. Not my thing though.
3/11 had some big effects on some of my wife's family.
The Japanese being the Japanese with the standards of quality and safety much higher than our's you probably didn't need to worry. But always better safe than sorry.
in reply to CAMPSOUPS
I Got alerts to it back then .
Hello de-Luke! I don’t know about collagen ? But a few months back I started Protocol glucosamine& chondroiten with msm per my Nat doc for joint pain . He already had me on DaVinci alpha lipoid acid daily . A began Hyluronic acid per Nalakrats at the same time . My pain has faded greatly . Unless I do something to aggravate it . I dug a small hole the other day to plant a Christmas tree . I couldn’t walk with out great hip and leg pain for a week . Any physical labor kills me now . I had two years of bad antibiotics for constant UTI’s . My joints lite up with disintegration on the scans .. good luck !
Shooter1 in reply to
Poor boy, go take a nap. Only my hands , low back and right hip put me down after I split wood and stack it on the porch..( It's cold and snowy up here). Wrists really light up scans. Life Is Good, pain???
in reply to Shooter1
Aahhh the joys of cold weather on the joints! Yabadabadoo baby! Like you said “ we re alive” Praise Jesus Christ! 😂👏👏
pjoshea13 in reply to
Skip the chondroiten, imo.
I did a search on something Myers said about it, but only came up with:
healthunlocked.com/advanced... 4 years ago:
{"The only other supplements I take, which I haven't leant about through this site (and my own research to verify) are Glucosamine (without Chondroitin as there's evidence it is no good for PCa) and MSM ...." Paulofus
"I didn't know that Chondroitin is bad for PC. I am going to have to check on that as I've been taking the Glucosamin-Chondroitin for a long time." WSOPeddie}
I grabbed a paper more or less at random:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/184...
Mount Sinai:
"Prostate Cancer. Preliminary research suggests that chondroitin may cause the spread or recurrence of prostate cancer. This effect has not been shown with chondroitin sulfate supplements. Still, until more is known, don't take chondroitin sulfate if you have prostate cancer, or are at high risk for developing it (you have a brother or father with prostate cancer)."
mountsinai.org/health-libra...
-Patrick
in reply to pjoshea13
You know much more than the average bear . I follow my md Nat onco all the way . So far so good . I told him what you said . He said no . Thank you Sir . He’s cutting edge .
in reply to pjoshea13
I switched from Glucosamin-Chondroitin to Glucosamine-MSM. My joints are doing fine.
in reply to
I take all three!
I Also take calcium and d-3 with k-2 . Plus strontium and a bone complex Very important I feel . I’m on prolia after losing 35 % density after four years adt . Now I’m over six yrs on adt no t. .
Why are you taking calcium? It is associated with a risk of PCa progression and heart disease. High intake of Vitamin D3 pulls calcium out of the bones and puts it in the blood. What are your DEXA scan results? Are you osteoporotic? Taking Zometa or Xgeva?
My DEXA bone scan was normal. I take calcium and D3 because my MO said I should take them.
You may want to ask him why? Maybe email him these:
"Higher calcium intake ... was associated with a higher risk of advanced and fatal prostate cancer"
aacrjournals.org/cebp/artic...
"we observed a threshold for calcium intake (604 mg/day) below which prostate cancer risk declined sharply."
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a...
"These findings do not support a benefit of high-dose vitamin D supplementation for bone health"
jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...
Thx Tall_Allen I will ask my MO. The studies seem to say 650ml is the max calcium dose.
Always best to take calcium in your food and let your body figure out what it needs. Bony fish (sardines, herring, anchovies) are particularly good sources because it includes calcium with minerals that bones are built of.
My husband is also on calcium! His MO suggested it as well! Thank you. I’m going to mention this to him.
Fight11,
My conventional/alternative Doc had me dispose of my calcium supplements. Men who have or have had prostate cancer should avoid calcium supplements. I am a vegan. Green vegetables are also rich sources of calcium. The link below might be helpful.
Top 10 Vegan Sources of Calcium - Healthline
healthline.com/nutrition/ve...
Currumpaw
If he has Zometa or even Xgeva I think but definitely if Zometa a dose of calcium is recommended to replace in the blood the calcium removed from blood by Zometa. (Zometa and possibly Xgeva in a sense remove calcium from blood and move it to the bones thus bone strengthening drugs).
There may be good reasons to supplement - for example, Zometa and Xgeva maye require additional calcium and Vitamin D. It should just be not be taken routinely without cause.
He said because of the Lupron
They do nothing for bone strength in men taking Lupron, unless they are also taking Zometa or Xgeva. Get a DEXA scan.
He is not on any of those meds. I’m going talk to his local MO the one who told him to take it.
You may want to send him the section of this article titled "No Effect or Negative Effect on Bone Mineral Density"
Tall-Allen- My most recent labs indicated I was slightly osteopenic, something I believe I was also a few years ago. In addition, from 2012-2015 my Vid. D levels were low approx.(34) so I believe I started taking a supplement. 5 years later, in 2020, I received an urgent call from my MO indicating my Vit D levels were dangerously HIGH (104).
I think I cut down on the Vit D supplement dose but still take it and my labs have recently been in the 60s and 50s.
I also take a Calcium supplememnt.I just read the 3 studies you provided links to but they are difficult for me to fully comprehend.
Are you suggesting I should NOT be taking either the D or the Caclcium?
Are you suggesting I should only be taking low doses?
Any advice you may provide is welcome.
Thank you!
My Vitamin D levels are NORMAL at 34. No reason to supplement either if blood levels are normal. They do NOT add bone strength in men who already have normal levels.
I have been taking Vit D supplements for so long now- at least 5 years and likely longer, that I don't knw what my level would be without the supplement.I take 5000 IU 4 days weekly and get some additional Vid D daily from my multi vitamin. Perhaps I should cut down and see if it effects my level?
Appreciate your thoughts on that.
Also- any thoughts on the Calcium I take?
Lastly- I read about the results of the ARASENS study today and the positive impact of Nubeqa as a 3rd drug along with Luron and Zytiga. Do you think those of us taking Lupron and Zytiga should now add Nobeqa?
There is no reason to supplement that much Vitamin D. At those levels it robs calcium from bones. Also, there supplemental calcium can have deleterious effects on prostate cancer:
prostatecancer.news/2018/07...
Nubeqa was only used along with docetaxel in newly diagnosed patients with metastases.
Thank you for all 3 responses.I will discuss the Vit. D and Calcium along with the studies that were cited in the original posting for my MO and see what her response is. And, thx for clarifying that the Nubeqa study was used only on patients who were newly diagnosed. As you know, many studies are done on newly diagnosed patients but it always makes me, and I am sure others, wonder if drugs helpful to those newly diagnosed would also be helpful to those on ADT for weeks, months and or years.Any thoughts on that?
I believe early chemotherapy is important to have. Maybe the drug companies just want you as a customer from the start for nubeqa for example. I believe even if you add nubeqa later it should work, but don't miss the early chemotherapy option otherwise you can't have the same benefits from the chemotherapy later. That is my thinking and experience but I don't really know for sure.
in reply to de-luke
I wish that my mo had put me on them before waiting 4 yrs and osteopenia setting in on me . 🤙🏽
in reply to Tall_Allen
I take a modest D3 supplement dose. One timely reason is that I've seen articles suggesting that people with low D3 levels fare poorly when dealing with a Covid infection.
"Our results support the hypothesis that very high calcium intake, above the recommended intake for men, may modestly increase risk of prostate cancer." pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/128....
I take less than 1,000mg. Do you have other studies showing harmful effcts?
de-luke,
The study you posted is 19 years old. I have been a vegan now for four years. On Monday I woke to 10" of snow. While walking back from helping clear snow for an elderly neighbor--I forgot--I am now considered to be elderly too-- I went down hard, very hard on untreated, black ice on the road. I bounced right back up and cleared my driveway and sidewalks.
I am getting enough calcium in my vegan diet.
Personal trainers know that "Form Follows Function". Resistance training stimulates one's own body to deposit the minerals for good bone health and density. As a naturopath has said, I paraphrase, "if you want bones like chalk take calcium. If you want bones like ivory take magnesium with calcium".
A good diet will likely supply more than enough nutrients for bone health with resistance training stimulating the uptake of these nutrients.
Calcium supplementation "only modestly' increases the risk of prostate cancer? How about doing something that "only modestly" decreases the risk of prostate cancer? I have never been lucky at gambling.
Currumpaw
in reply to de-luke
This is what I believe too! My Nat dr and my mo didn’t promote calcium . Then only the nat dr did after osteopenia hit me . My mos have never cared about diet or nutrition . I do my own thing but following the naturalpathic allthe way . Western med is all poison . Unfortunate for us with APC we need some poison to kill the Bastards off or at least slow their roll on us . Good luck to you ! 🙏🍀
I take collagen to try and improve my thin, easily bruised skin. I'm 80.I've been taking Triple Strength Joint Soother from Puritan's Pride for osteoarthritis in my knees for over 50 years. It works for me.
Good luck.
de-luke,
Sun Warrior makes a good vegan, collagen supplement, a powder.
Undenatured chicken cartilage supplements are available but perhaps the very best supplement available for joints, tendons and ligaments may be "Joint Vibrance". Joint Vibrance has just about everything in it necessary for joint, tendon and ligament maintenance and repair. Looking at the ingredients there doesn't seem to be any omission of a nutrient for joint, tendon or ligament health.
A chicken soup once started by simmering the carcass for hours releasing nutrients that are rarely seen in today's soups. A stew had similar beginnings with bones from the butcher that had fascia, tendon and maybe a little ligament still adhering to a bone that was cut.
Before becoming a vegan I would eat the cartilage in a chicken carcass. Very crunchy!
My grandfather was a master carpenter. He never owned a power saw. Shoulder, elbow or wrist troubles never bothered him. My grandmother heated the remaining, morning coffee in a saucepan and added Knox Gelatin to it. She poured the coffee into ornate desert dishes and refrigerated it. He had a dish almost every night after dinner with a bit of cream and sugar on it.
You might consider a high-quality fish oil supplement if you aren't a vegan. High quality or none. Preferably a liquid, purchased in a small bottle to be used in a timely way and refrigerated to retain freshness.
Twin Lab made a joint supplement for athletes that contained curcumin for inflammation.
You might wish to look up the calcium supplementation for men with prostate cancer.
As always, confer with your doctors.
My best to you,
Currumpaw
I take bone broth powder as a supplement both for weight control and collagen. That combined with oak milk, a banana and ice cubes in a blender is my daily breakfast.
A good clean diet is more than adequate if you lift weights or other resistance training (calisthenics, bands etc)
If you are old and don’t do this type of exercise there’s nothing you can take to produce results anywhere near as good.
If you’re on long term ADT and don’t lift you are flat out asking for osteoporosis, regardless of diet and supplements.
Xgeva or Zometa can help, but I would never depend on them only.
Good point but in case someone misunderstands Xgeva & Zometa are part of life sustaining treatment when skeleton is fully metastasized.
SOC or ‘life sustaining treatment’? They’re not always synonymous as you know.
I use Dexa scans as my guide. If my density is good I take nothing. I don’t believe in drugs as preventatives.
Certainly for most guys they are a must, since most don’t do weight bearing exercise. If I didn’t I’d be on Xgeva tomorrow.
Let’s also not misunderstand no drug comes without side effects. Many common ones with bisphosphonates . Necrosis of the jaw less common but very nasty stuff. Risk/reward comes into play, just like all these other things we take.
Admittedly, ‘fully metastasized’ is serious, and I would be paying closer attention in that case.
Anyway. When your bones are chewed up from skull to shins from metastasis then as the chartered trial showed some of the damage can be mitigated and even progression slowed by Zometa. Of course chemo, adt, etc. are the main weapons but phase 3 RCT trials showed extended PFS with addition of Zometa in widespread bone metastasis. I was not speaking of people who are on adt with no, or minimal metastasis and using it to counter osteo.
I was trying to make that distinction between plain old adt effects which I agree exercise and even with mets exercise but with mets that have ate away at the bone the repair that Zometa can achieve and the mitigating effects on progression that it has are proven. With my life at stake and seeing my scans showing my skeleton as a dark silhouette with a few white areas, and being told I was at extreme risk of fracture I was willing to take chances on jaw necrosis which is rare and I see it too often mentioned here to scare people. However it can and does happen and I don't mean to minimize the suffering some have gone thru.
I made it past my first estimated expiration date of 2 years now at about 27 months since dx. I am shooting for that 2nd estimate I was given which is 5 years. How are you doing?
You’re definitely one who should be taking it, and I’m glad you have it! I never meant to say anyone should avoid it, just to be as sure as you can that it’s needed.
You are a role model for positive attitude, which someday will probably be found a effective bone strengthener in and of itself.
I am doing well thanks. Any mets in me are too small to see at this time, and are asleep.
All the luck and hard work to you CAMPSOUPS!
in reply to de-luke
We all face these same issues .. weight bearing and cardio to attempt to retain what we can on adt with no t . The problem if you go undetectable is simply no T aboard .
Just noticed these threads and adding I have seen some time back, on this site, well researched from memory, investigations into glucosamine and condroitin supplements and the verdict was positive on glucosamine but highly negative on condroitin for prostate cancer. I saw a member here suggest they appeared dangerous and to trash them.
With all the bones mets I have, I attempt to keep a very low inflammation diet as well as various nutritional formularies, sauna and a Rife machine. Works pretty good
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