weight gain, ADT and diet

[cbgjr]

I had some thoughts after reading George71's recent post "Apparently diet and exercise matter with PCa after all, especially for those on ADT since ADT causes weight gain (and it isn't muscle)."

In my case, following Lupron for 2 years and then Taxotere chemo, I had lost about 20 lbs. After starting Zytiga, I started to regain the lost weight, and then some. Although some of it is due to fluid retention (listed as a possible abiraterone side effect).

I have noticed much loss of muscle and strength, but for me exercising is difficult now because of the severe neuropathy caused by the chemo, which is not going away. That leaves diet changes.

I have been on a relatively high carb and low fat diet, high on plant foods, loosely similar to the Mediterranean diet. Now it seems probable that high carb diets are not ideal for slowing down PCa progression.s

But one problem is the number of theories about the best diet to fight off the PCa beast. There are a number of conflicting diet advices that have shown up on this site and elsewhere. Also, many MO doctors say diet doesn't really matter if you already have aggressive PCa, but I don't believe that.

At one time or another, on this site, these foods have been mentioned as things to avoid: Dairy products, eggs, carbs, red meat, chicken, sugar and fruits with high sugar content, foods high in cholesterol (shrimp included?), soy products, prepared and processed foods, foods with chemical additives and/or traces of pesticides, etc. And I probably missed some...

So shopping for groceries ain't easy any more, hard to know what to get, it feels like there could be something wrong with everything.

The keto diet seems to possibly have some short term benefits slowing down advanced PCa progression, but reports show it could be counterproductive in the longer term. (But do we have a "long term"?)

what to do!

CG

[SuppWife]

Yes! This! I don't know what to feed myself and my husband. It's exhausting. Thank you for this post.

[Moespy]

Very interested to see the replies to your post!

I am borderline obese and have been trying to stay on a dairy free, sugar free, no red meat and low carb diet. I second your sentiment about it being very difficult to shop for and is frustrating. I lost 30 pounds doing it but recently gained most of it back when I started to cheat on the carbs. Just now starting ADT and very concerned about turning into the incredible blob.

I exercise to make myself feel better (fan bike, walking and hiking) but it goes only so far when it comes to calories in and calories out for weight loss. I can eat the calories lost in exercise for breakfast!

I am now moving toward a low inflammation diet which helps with cancer. My MO would like my inflammation numbers to go down. Amazon has a cookbook for a low inflammation diet utilizing a crock pot (slow cooker).

Take a look here and see if this might be a possibility to help with this important issue. amazon.com/Anti-Inflammator...

Best Wishes and Thanks for the post!

[Cgjunior in reply to Moespy]

Thank you!

[cbgjr in reply to Moespy]

thanks for the tip, I'll check out that book.

However, I've never heard of the "inflammation numbers" criteria

[Moespy in reply to cbgjr]

Inflammation is measured in your C-Reactive Protein level in the blood... A high level of CRP in the blood is a marker of inflammation. It can be caused by a wide variety of conditions, from infection to cancer. Very high CRP levels (>3.0) can also indicate that there's inflammation in the arteries of the heart, which can mean a higher risk of heart attack.

My CRP is 1.1 which the blood test range says is normal. However, my MO wants that number to be <0.5 for PCa patients. Another fun fact from the world of PCa.

[cbgjr in reply to Moespy]

thank you. i reviewed all my bloodwork test reports. CRP is never tested for. wonder why, should ask MO.

[Moespy in reply to cbgjr]

Your MO can add the test to your regular blood work if he/she thinks it is important. Mine has me take it annually.

[Hidden in reply to Moespy]

I wish I had read this yesterday -- I could have had my doctor add CRP to lab work he ordered that day. Live and learn.

[Moespy in reply to Hidden]

You likely still can. Email him and ask. I forgot to add PSA at a physical and had it added the next day. They keep your sample for a little while.

I need to remember to add it to my next test coming up in 3 weeks. What day is today? Lol.

[Herman_PSA in reply to Moespy]

One year ago at the start of my PCa diagnosis, I loss a whopping 65-lbs. in 9-months (starting weight 285-lbs.) by first giving up all meats, dairy, eggs, and pretty much anything with "eyes." I phased into an all plant based diet & Budwig Diet. My wife said I looked sick and skinny for my height of 6"1" and I will tell you that I did regained back about +20-lbs over the last 5-months. Now she said I look great.

My total cholesterol dropped from 190 down to 128 when I loss all the weight (65-lbs.) and it's now leveled off 138 total cholesterol. Notice that I tend to use some sort of benchmarks to measure my progress. I feel pretty good now even on Lupron/Casodex with no joint point or inflation problems. The ADT with Lupron started it all. But, I was able to lower my PSA from 55 to >0.1 in three months with the assistance of diet and supplements, and daily exercise.

My two-cents about the book you mentioned slow cooker. Heck, I see the chicken in the pot which right off the bat is not a good sign at all. Avoid it my friend! Do you know the length of time it takes a chicken hatched from an egg until it's killed is only 45-days! How do you think they do that trick? According to my co-worker friend who growing up grew chickens on their family farm said chickens (with no chemicals) are white not yellow as you see them at supermarket. Imagine all the chemicals they must pump into those chickens. My bet it's a slow death sentence for someone with PCa let alone advance PCa like myself. No way!

If you wish to get as much plant based protein/nutrient into your body in the shortest amount of time, try drinking fresh wheatgrass and work your way up to 2-oz. shots x 3 times per day. Take that suggestion from personal experience. I grow my own wheatgrass in my home and I have several local vendors that I can also purchase it and juice it on my machine. You could too.

A 2-oz. shot of wheatgrass provides a range of vitamins and minerals, while imposing very few calories. Per 100 grams -- about 2.8 ounces -- wheatgrass juice has about 20 calories, 2 grams of carbohydrates and 0.06 gram of fat. Expressed another way, one ounce of wheatgrass Juice is equivalent in vitamins, minerals, and amino acids found in 2-1/2 POUNDS of green leaf vegetables. Among other things, when you only eat meats, dairy, eggs, etc. your body has to use a considerable amount of energy to process all of that heavy/toxic food and you are lucky if you get 20% nourishment from all.

Note! When you first start drinking wheatgrass, it WILL DETOX you bigtime. As in, clean out your digestive system from all of the toxins. In short, you may go to the bathroom more often the first two days. Start it on a Friday night into the weekend to found out where you are at.

Yes, wheatgrass is an acquired taste. But, death from PCa/treatments should be a fantastic motivator to help you adjust to a new diet you can follow and NOT feel hungry afterwards. It worked/is working for me!

If you wish to learn from the master and pretty much the very first chef that wrote a recipe book on the subject going back to the 90s, try reading Dining in the Raw by Chef Rita Romano. She so happens to like near my home and I have also been to her health detox spa for a three day food retreat. She does private consults or group worth every penny.

You can buy the book used/new cheap! The majority of folks will brush off her book and not see or understand the rationale. Or, maybe they are not ready to change their habits. But, for those that want to see what they are up against via diet, she does an excellent job of breaking it down in the beginning of the book. Thus, it more then JUST a recipe book.

amazon.com/Dining-Raw-Rita-...

PS - I don't make a dime from this post. If I can help save someone's QOL life from advanced PCa like I have been helped, that is my paid back.

[Moespy in reply to Herman_PSA]

Hi Herman_PSA,

Great information! My cholesterol levels went way down upon weight loss also; docs were amazed.

What was you last CRP level from blood work? I am looking to get mine down below 0.5.

Thanks for the reply,

Jim

[Herman_PSA in reply to Moespy]

My starting CRP level on 3/2018 was .78 mg/L and as of 2/2019 it is now .52 mg/L. I am also trying to go to .50 /m/L as my target.

For your consideration. When I started my journey with advance PCa (Gleason-8 Stage-4 with 5 bone mets) I have been learning about diet, exercise, supplements and the conventional PCa treatments using my skill sets and prayer. That's me!

You can learn more about reading your blood lab work and organize your data using online labwork analyzers. Here is the one I use to be able to quickly see my progress and set backs. I've had no real setbacks so far, thank God. labtestanalyzer.com/

Now, there are critics/opinions about diets. What can I say. I've It's your body and the outcomes good/bad. You do it, you own it. Bottom line is how do you know what's in your gut? What is your food/diet providing you as far as nourishment & the sum of your bacteria good/bad in your gut? Does your primary doctor, MO, or urologist know? I doubt it and they don't even ask or have time to discuss. Why don't you find out for yourself? I know what and how my food is impacting me by my blood work AND my a sample of my poop biome. Here is the one I use. viome.com/

They happen to have a price cut ending this weekend for $150. It takes about four weeks to get your result and they provide a customized super foods list and what you should avoid and what macrobiotics are missing. They compare you to others in their database. Well worth the time and money. Otherwise, you are essentially depending on maybe reading your feelings of how you feel and guessing or not doing squat while you still can. This levels the playing field. And, you will then be better able to associate how you look and feel with what the blood lab work indicates. Heck, that may be better than a witch doctor.

[Moespy in reply to Herman_PSA]

Great information, thank you for your response!

Jim

[monte1111 in reply to Herman_PSA]

Believe some yellow chicken meat is because chicken was on corn diet. Remember as young one, grandma cutting head off of rooster with hatchet. You don't eat egg laying hens. Head flopping on ground and headless body runs 20 feet before flopping over. These were tough people. Pioneers. Still love the fried chicken but never get it any more. If people had to slaughter and prep the meat, poultry, fish and etc. they eat there would be a lot more vegetarians. Know I would be on a rice diet. But didn't the trees get mad when Dorothy picked the apples?

[Herman_PSA in reply to monte1111]

Feed the chickens GMO corn for their diet and you get to eat the same thing down the road. Animals should get their protein from plant-based/grass fed food source.

In my teens I witness a person pick out his live chicken from a crowded cage and the store owner slit the throat head off the chicken and stuck it upside side into a big funnel. That chickens legs kicked around for a good one minute before stopping. Then the store owner grabbed the chicken and placed it against a machine with rubber fingers (stubs) that pulled off/rubbed off all of the features in a very short period of time. He wrapped it up in butcher paper and the purchaser was off getting into his mercedes.

Needless to say, it was a very long time before I ate chicken again and since getting advanced prostate cancer, I won't eat squat if it has chicken/or meat in it. I can imagine what it must be like now in those packed barns where the chickens are feed GMOs and pumped with antibiotics and mass processed with all the germs/bacteria being splashed on EVERYTHING. All that stress in those animals is in the meat that you then eat it and expect to be healthy? Go ahead!

Have prostate cancer or any other health challenge? Then your immune system is over taxed trying to keep up and handle a great deal. In most cases, eventually it's not able to do so and the slow decline begins. Yeah, I was one of you until I started to question everything. I wanted to know WHY?

What are the 8 Worst Foods for Prostate Health? Any meats is right up there my friends. The chicken skin is the worse part!

youtube.com/watch?v=0yHUOYR...(Not working as expected?)

nutritionfacts.org/video/fe...

prostate.net/articles/8-wor...

npr.org/sections/thesalt/20...

I'm sorry to burst your safe zone bubble.

[monte1111 in reply to Herman_PSA]

OK everybody stop! No more chicken horror stories. Thanks for the links Herman. I checked them out. My son worked at a chicken/turkey processing plant for 6 months. After a week he was forbidden to tell work stories in my presence. And he was the truck washer! (His other choice would have been eviscerator) I encouraged him to report the place to 60 minutes and the FDA. He did. Didn't hear anything back from either of them! My safe zone bubble was burst many years ago. Someone saying "Alexa, play Buttons and Bows", and Alexa saying "Ok. Pushing button." And thousands of nuclear tipped missiles criss cross the sky. The gas co. blowing up blocks of houses at a time. An assortment of disgruntled people who just shoot strangers by the dozens. Remember the tv series "1000 Ways To Die". Ghoulish and funny at the same time. The prostate cancer will probably kill me. Or I may be lucky and be taken out by a heart attack. (Butch Cassidy when Sundance reveals he can't swim "Are you crazy, the fall will probably kill you!" I will leave the Mercedes parked and walk to the taco truck tonight. Asada, not chicken. You are doing things the right way. At 69 I'm going to do things my way. Good luck my friend.

[Tekton]

I started out worried about what I ate but after 6 months of thinking about food I miss and all the different ideas I just started following the idea of eat "heart" healthy very loosely and almost no fast food. My primary care doctor worries more about weight loss, not minor weight gain. I gained 20 lbs. In 2 1/2 years.

In the end? Eat what you enjoy. Imho

[Hidden in reply to Tekton]

I'm not disciplined when it comes to my diet, other than eating in moderation. I haven't gained a pound in five years. I exercise a bunch so I think a higher metabolism allows me to slam some snacks without putting on the weight. I drink water at meals. No fizzy sugar water or even fruit juice, other than a little prune juice, for me. Cutting out the soda was the biggest step I took. I see the 'soda aisle' at the grocery store as the 'obesity aisle'. Why isn't that obvious to everyone?

[savingdaddy]

I agree! It’s so hard! My Dad is always calling me asking if he can have a particular food. It can be very overwhelming to say the least. My Mom has been cooking very healthy for my Dad... lots of bright colorful veggies and ALL the greens, lean meats, whole wheat breads, no sugar, no soda, and organic when available along with apples and red grapes, almonds and Brazil nuts..it’s a tiresome task but I have to believe it is benefitting him😊

[JamesAtlanta]

I have been on ADT for 4 years, including Zytiga + prednisone for the last 14 months. I have lost about 10 lbs since diagnosis - while my doctor said most patients gain about 20.

I do a few things:

1) I force myself to exercise ... even when I don’t want to. I always feel better when I finish!

2) I studied a lot about diet and finally came to the conclusion that I just need to eat a balanced diet, including lots of salmon and trout, which are high in omega 3’s. And I skip bread, mayonnaise, and limit sweets. There is a great book by Dr. David Servan Schreiber entitled The Anti-Cancer Diet - A New Way of Life. It is available on Amazon and has lots of information that can guide you. Plus the doctor has an amazing story - he followed his diet recommendations and lived 20-years when he was given only 18-months to live with brain cancer. The book has recommendations for specific types of cancer, including PCa.

3) I use an app called myFitnessPal - I plug in my weight goal and then log what I eat after every meal. It is easy because the app had a huge data base of foods. The app tells you how many calories I have consumed, how many I have left for the day, and (with the premium app), breaks down your foods so you know which foods are contributing to what your goals pursue for carbs, fat and protein.

At the end of the day, it’s about calories in and calories out. And with ADT you MUST exercise to help offset the muscle loss. I know it’s hard ... a fight every day. But you can do it!

Hope this helps!

James

[cbgjr in reply to JamesAtlanta]

Thanks James. A few years ago I listened to "The Anti-Cancer diet" on audio book. I thought it was great at the time. But now I can't remember the specific recommendations for PCa, I guess I need to get it again or get a print copy.

[pilot52]

Ever try a pomegranate enema?? PC does not like pomegranate .....Now that being said it was sort of a joke. Just like you said...there are a million opinions out there...Get some exercise on a regular basis , and moderation , and water to stay hydrated ...now I do use Pom + water to drink...The stress of what to eat might be more detrimental to our health than what we actually do eat....Junk food, sodas, and you cut the grocery store down by 45% or more. Fat content and sugar limit....Have fun with it and good luck....

Blue Skies

[monte1111 in reply to pilot52]

Yes, Blue Skies I did laugh at the thought of a pomegranate enema. The enema for my biopsy did not go well. I have a pomegranate tree in my front yard, and can't imagine having a pomegranate in the mix. Have fun and good luck.

[j-o-h-n]

I beat the overweight problem.... I weigh myself with only one foot on the scale.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 02/15/2019 4:16 PM EST

[j-o-h-n]

Dr. Brown's Celray tonic.... great for healthy toe nails....

They used to call it tonic.... now soda....In fact in New England they called all sodas tonic at one time, now wtf knows.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 02/15/2019 5:07 PM EST

[Stegosaurus37]

You should eat "heart healthy" any way regardless of whether you have cancer or not. I'm 76 and my weight has stayed within a few pounds of 150 one way or another since high school. Don't be obsessive about your diet - more people die of worry than anything else - but use some smarts. Exercise is GOOD!! But you're not going to lose weight on it - you can't burn that many calories. Its benefits are better energy and muscle tone, not weight loss.

[monte1111]

I use to read the obits. I quit when I was older and so many of them were friends or acquaintances. I do remember having a secret pleasure when the obit was about a doctor or a preacher. I believe I will add dietician to that list.

[Hidden]

Dr Oz, on one of his shows, pointed out the business about low stomach acid leading to problems and he focused on B-12 deficiency. Well, I have GERD due to a hiatal hernia so I take the acid reducer omeprazole. I now take B-12 supplements. Interesting that my gastro doctor never offered me this sage advice. I'll have to consider adding the protein powder you mentioned.

[Kittenlover50]

This is an excellent article, long, but readable. We actually pretty much follow it. I never have believed in high fat keto.. American cancer society has always said low fat.... in remission over 2 years... stage 4. ( chemo and everything else)... 6 foot, 180 pounds, was 240.... hope link comes thru

urology.ucsf.edu/sites/urol...

[cbgjr in reply to Kittenlover50]

great article. thank you

[Crabcrushe]

If I were to be a June bride this year, I'd do it.

Other than that...nah.

Crusher