Hi ...I started taking Armour Thyroid a few months back and these are my latest blood test results. I haven't been feeling that great on it as yet. My dry cracked heels getting worse, falling asleep very early evening etc. After this blood test I started to add a little Levothyroxine daily (around 20mcg daily) to see if that would help but I think it has made me feel worse (am getting breathless walking up the stairs). Unfortunately the private doctor I was due to speak with on Thursday for my follow-up appointment, who prescribed it, has had to go into hospital and so appointments are being pushed back. Can anyone please help me interpret the results. The blood test was taken early morning before Armour Thyroid medication.
Not feeling that great on Armour Thyroid - Thyroid UK
Not feeling that great on Armour Thyroid
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Turquoisenona
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Sorry to hear that, I've no experience of NDT but hear it can be trickier to get right than taking separate T3 & 4
Your Vit D ideally needs to be above 100
Your ferritin is on the low side, low iron makes you breathless and B12 could be higher
From what I have read it is far more symptom based than blood results and it sounds like you still need an increase
It is such a struggle whichever route we take it takes such a long time to find optimal 😕
I do feel the breathlessness is more thyroid based as this is a recent thing and my ferritin has been low for a while. Am almost at the point of going back to Levothyroxine to be honest. It really is a struggle isn't it.
The thing about prolonged low ferritin is that it messes with the size and quality of your red blood cells so these replace themselves every 150ish days, so even if you had an iron infusion today your RBC is still going to take months to fully benefit...
Worth getting your vits and mins up to give NDT a fair trial (as you'd likely feel equally crappy back on levo) and perhaps adding a little more might just be the key, probably worth giving it a little longer 🤷♀️though it is the most expensive route 🙃
Okay, thanks for that. Yes, it is expensive. That is something that puts me off a bit but I suppose I have come this far with it.
Yeah, I daren't try it in case it is fabulous and I can't afford the habit 🫤
Also it varies between batches which just seemed another drama to deal with when the tablets/ capsules are reasonably consistent and free 😅
I don’t think it varies at all. It has to comply with the same rules of potency as levothyroxine does.
🤷♀️ Just seems to be something that often crops up with people questioning different batches
So, how long was the gap between your last dose of Armour and the blood draw?
I would have taken the previous days 2nd dose of one grain of armour at around 2.30pm
OK, so the gap was too long, meaning you have a false 'low' FT3, there. Best to leave between 8 to 12 hours.
Oh really. It was what the Dr advised. So my actual T3 is probably higher than that?
Doctors know very little about thyroid, how to treat it or how to test for it. But, yes, your FT3 is actually higher than that, but impossible to know by how much.
SlowDragonAdministrator
Looking at your profile
You currently take 2 grains per day ?
Do you normally split the dose
you look like you might need dose increase
What vitamin supplements are you taking
B12 at least over 500
You need separate B12 and daily vitamin B complex
Ferritin at least over 70
Look at significantly increasing iron rich foods in your diet
Yes I split the dose. I have started taking Thyromax one tablet daily.
Suggest you stop that ….it contains iodine and kelp
Never recommended for anyone on replacement thyroid hormone
Okay. Thank you
Hello Turquoisenona
So with NDT we dose to the relief of symptoms and not a blood test -
which is just a snapshot in time and on which to track your T3/T4 results -
Your T3 may well have been higher - but it means little if symptoms persist or are getting worse.
I also have Graves Disease but was treated with RAI thyroid ablation back in 2005 - a treatment I deeply regret and I started self medicating NDT in 2018 when the NHS refused me both NDT and T3 thyroid hormone replacement options.
I only dose once a day at around 2/3 in the early morning and have been settled on 1 + 1/2 grains for around 5 years.
My TSH is low suppressed and my T3 is around 90/110 % through the range with my T4 coming in at just around 25/30% through its range -
so the total reverse of my results when taking T4 monotherapy and I am much improved.
I stopped 125 mcg T4 Levothyroxine one day and started NDT the following day -
The T4 takes around 6-8 weeks to fully leave the body and in that time I slowly increased my NDT by 1/4 grains weekly - though some recommend fortnightly increments.
I tracked myself on blood pressure, pulse and body temperature am and pm every day ?
The first two remained constant and my temperature slowly rose from 35.4 to 36.6 -
There comes a week where you don't feel as good as the previous week - you then drop back that last 1/4 grain increment and stay on the previous dose for 6-8 weeks letting it bed in and then run a blood test to compare with your bench mark readings.
It is advised that if and when you get to 2 grains - you hold this dose for 6-8 weeks and then run the bloods to check to see any changes in your bloods - if happy with progress - but still with symptoms - slowly repeat the process of 1/4 grain increments and monitor on clinical symptoms of blood pressure, pulse and body temperature as most people seem to be ' ok ' at around 2/3 grains.
With NDT the hormones are attached to thyroglobulin and much more slowly ingested and released into the blood stream with some people choosing to dose just once a day.
No thyroid hormone works well until your core strength vitamins and minerals are up and maintained at optimal levels and I know now I feel best with a ferritin at around 100 - folate around 20 - active B12- 75++ ( serum B12- 500 ++ ) and vitamin D up at around 100 and I waited taking NDT until I knew these stepping stones were in place.
I've written out how I managed to get going on NDT as I think you may have gone too fast too soon and missed your best dose.
Everywhere I researched suggested that ferritin needs to be over 70 before any thyroid hormone replacement works well - and obviously without optimum core strength vitamins and minerals you were not best placed to find NDT the immediate game changer that you hoped it would be.
First work on building up these health and well being stepping stones as whatever thyroid hormone replacement you end up taking the rules still apply for the core strength vitamin and minerals.
Thanks so much for all that.
Just reading your back history and see I replied some 9 months ago when you first joined the forum :
So - all I left off then, as well as probably some typos was Elaine Moore's website - elaine-moore.com
You must have been in information overload that day as you had so many members wanting to help and support you.
It is a lot to take in but this site is an absolute god send and I am blown away by the support and information offered. I really need to sit down and work out all my vitamins etc and try and get on top of it all.
You will and it is so worthwhile and given time you will become your own best advocate as we all do :
My ferritin was down at 22 and presume my other core strength vitamins and minerals were in a similar state - though guess in the NHS ranges - as I was presumed good to go - I was very poorly and it took me over a year to build these back :
I was virtually housebound so had the time to research and read and reread as the brain fog was heavy and I actually thought I was dealing with dementia -
and I took to writing out - several times - anything I read that resonated - bit like being back in school detention - and 4 x A4 exercise books later - I had many lines - and a starting point.
Details on my profile page if interested - just press the icon alongside my name.
Dr Barry Durrant-Peatfield's book - Your Thyroid and How To Keep It Healthy is a very good starting point for hypothyroidism ;
And obviously for the Graves - Elaine Moore :
Thank you
Think I just edited that just sent !!
Yes, I think am going to really concentrate on getting up all my vitamin and mineral levels. I suppose I have underestimated their impact and hoped for a 'wonderpill' to make me feel my old self. Also at 49 I must be perimenopausal and it seems so many symptoms overlap and it is very hard to tell what is what. It really is hard to know what the right avenue to go down with treatment is. I am also getting a bit fed up with sinking so much money into trying.
I am glad you are feeling a lot better. Annoying I was actually starting to feel more like my old self when I switched to Armour and I fear I have put myself back again now. I guess the moral is if things are going well, don't change them x
Well - Armour is very expensive - but does work for many thousands of people ;
I couldn't afford to go privately and so DI for Myself -
To give it ' my best shot ' I stayed on T4 monotherapy on the NHS until I was best placed to switch to NDT and just got over the fact that I felt like a ' drug smuggler ' :
We have an unfair system in place - but fighting the system simply exacerbated my systems - so having been refused in early 2018 both T3 or NDT by the NHS -
I 've just stayed away and with no other health issues haven't seen a doctor for around 6 years.
Okay, thanks.
I too am struggling with armour. I’ve been on it for over a year now, slowly making changes. But I can’t get my blood numbers up very far without my symptoms multiply. So I’m currently going back down in dose and hope to add some Levo next (depending on blood results I’m waiting for) to see if I can bring the T4:T3 ratio closer to human than pig thyroid hormones.
I think that even though the T3 was just 50% of range after my last test (12 hours after last dose), it was too much for me because my heart rate had risen noticeably. As I live with permanent atrial fibrillation, I can’t have my heart rate running artificially high.
My FT4 level is always in the doldrums at the low quarter of the range. I have tried T3 only in the past and not enjoyed that experience at all so this is why I’m looking to try adding some T4 to the mix. And it should help my T3 to rise a bit too. But unless I feel awful on it, I know that I need to give it around 10-12 weeks to bed in.
Have you given it long enough for a proper trial? Difficulty breathing is a hypo symptom for me.
Often Levo plus small doses of T3 is more flexible than NDT
I don't get on well with Liothyrionine. It's too immediate. I really like the slow action of the T3 in NDT. So that's why I'm trying to find a way to make NDT work.
I thought Roseway now make a slow release T3?
I don't know about that. I will enquire when I next order a bottle of Armour.
I was assuming that was what the private doctor would suggest but she seemed to think this was the way for me. Is Levo plus T3 a lot cheaper?
Is Levo plus T3 a lot cheaper?
Yes
Thybon Henning 20mcg tablet T3 are approx £60-£80 per 100 tablets
Typical dose is 3 x 5mcg per day - cutting 20mcg into 1/4 tablets
Some people only need 2 x 5mcg ……some might need 20mcg. Not often higher, unless on T3 only
Hmm sitting here seriously considering ditching the Armour and going back to Levo tomorrow now (where I had actually started to feel quite good a few months back, am a bit cross with myself for messing with it now) getting my vitamins/iron levels up to scratch and seeing if that is enough to up my T3 levels. I could always try some T3 in the future if not. Am not liking being out of breath just climbing the stairs! I just don't feel right and as the private doctor has unexpectedly gone into hospital for up to 4 weeks I can't voice it with her. I don't like how it has messed up my menstrual cycle either which is apparently a common thing but a bit unsettling.
No, I probably haven't given it long enough yet. I will give it a bit longer and I expect the doctor will want to up my dose so I can see what that does.
Increases in Levo always make me feel bad from about week 2 until at least week 4 or 5.
I think it is a hypo symptom for me as well as it feels different to when my heart used to beat faster when i was hyper
I feel like my heart rate is running high too. Do you know if I was to go back to Levo whether I would literally just stop taking the Armour one day and go back to my old dose of Levo the next or should it be somehow a more gradual thing?
It would need to be gradual…..especially if only going on to Levo
Could be slightly quicker if changing to levothyroxine plus small doses of T3
I suppose I would hit a lull as I don't have as much T4 in my system and would be withdrawing the T3?
Yes
If you are going to change over do so SLOWLY
Table from here
thyroidpharmacist.com/artic...
Ft4 and Ft3 in different thyroid medications
How would I go about getting a T3 prescription? Would that need to be from the private Dr I am seeing?
That’s one option
Or endocrinologist
More endocrinologists will prescribe T3 than Armour
Here’s link for how to request Thyroid U.K.list of private Doctors emailed to you, but within the email a link to download list of recommended thyroid specialist endocrinologists who will prescribe T3
Ideally choose an endocrinologist to see privately initially and who also does NHS consultations
thyroiduk.org/contact-us/ge...
Over 64,000 prescriptions for T3 on NHS in England in last year
When low in FT3 it can cause high heart rate. It took me years to figure it out but its true.
Yes I know.
Hey there, you and me both struggling on this still 😞 have you looked into your cortisol? I've been prescribed hydrocortisone by my endo now, as my saliva is low and has been this way for many years. I believe this could lead to a tolerance problem. I love t3 in Armour so much more than in Thybon. Recently took 7.5 synthetic t3, it helped with some symptoms, but I was like a yoyo all day! Hypo, good, hypo, good, hypo...it wears off in like 2-3 hours. Terrible.
Ditto the T3 in Armour vs. Thybon.
Can't do a saliva cortisol test. Can't produce enough spit anymore. I think that might be because my thyroid hormones are too low. Blood cortisol is good. And my reaction is good to that test where you have a blood test one day, take a tablet that night and have another blood test the following morning.
I've just got my latest blood test results back and posted them on my profile. I am feeling soooo tired and worn out and hopeless. But if you have a look you will see that my results between today and October are very different but the dose is the same! I tried an experiment of increasing my NDT to 2 + 3/4 grains for a few weeks but felt dreadful and had to back down. For 2 weeks I felt much better and then the slow steady deterioration until now. So I can't increase my NDT. I think I want to add some Levo in. Adding T3 will just make me sweat like crazy. But I am totally confused.
I left a gap of 12 hours from last dose to Armour to test. So my peak T3 would be higher. But in the morning, around 3 hours after taking a dose, I literally fall asleep at my desk.
Christ. Yeah I have similar reactions.My blood cortisol is good too, but my ACTH very low in range and saliva cortisol low, so I'm on HC for a couple of months to see if it helps me tolerate meds.
I feel the pain with saliva, I did the test on Sunday, struggled to fill tubes. Do you know your sodium and aldosterone?
I have the exact same reaction. I could sleep after the dose and 4 hours later I feel like I'm losing my ming on the dot, every single day.
Do you usually split your dose? I don't and have sane reaction as you.
I really think this could be to do with cortisol and lazy pituitary.
Definitely try adding Levo, it didn't work for me, but it works for some people. Adding t3 to Armour was difficult, being like a yoyo all day and then running out. But it did increase my libido, brought some colour to my face and I had more energy.
My libido fled the day I started on Armour and hasn't been seen since. Very strange.
I don't know my sodium or aldosterone levels.
I do split my dose. I tried it all at once for a couple of weeks but I was ready for bed by 5pm. I now take it at 8am and 5pm. I've tried every combo of timing I think.
My last saliva test came back void. It took so long to fill the samples and all I really got was bubbles.
I don't know what to do really. Trying hard not to give up this morning. My pituitary doesn't seem to be able to do it's job. But neither do I understand why a dose of Armour can result in 24% through range and then 3 months later 17% through range.
What happened when you added Levo? How did you feel?
Yeah libido is dose dependant, mine was better on higher Armour or Armour and Levo and Armour and T3. Your dose is too low, but what to do to make you tolerate it. Can you do a cortisol urine test instead if you struggle with saliva?
All this sounds very hypo to me. And something is blocking us to achieve wellbeing. You said you were on t3 only, were you on it long and what was the dose?
It would.be good to check sodium and aldosterone, I suspect it is being hypo for long, as you know then pituitary gets low in cortisol.and it produces less ACTH and becomes a nightmare. That's why I'm hoping some hydro will kick-start it.
Don't give up, we won't give up, we will get there, something is blocking the progress.
Same dose and different results? Happens all the time, you absorb it, especially after 3 months.
At first adding Levo felt good, but I started to overheat and feel at times more hypo. I was more puffy and sweating.
I did a urine cortisol test last year for my private endo. Good results. How do you test sodium and aldosterone?
I have terrible trouble with fluid retention right now. That was less of an issue at 2 = 1/4 grains, but I daren't reduce my NDT further given how low it all is now.
My HRT doctor thinks I have histamine problems. But I'm not sure about that at all. She wants me to do a restriction diet, but I'm too tired to think about that right now. I'm taking supplements and antihistamines for it as an experiment.
I have tried T3 only twice over a period of years and each time for a reasonable time, long enough to know it made me feel worse. I don't remember the doses first time, the last time I was taking over 50mcg a day at one point and was more exhausted the more I took.
Okay so maybe then you don't have cortisol issues...we're you on as much t3 t4 as you are now with Armour?Yes, fluid can go up when dose goes up, happened to me on Armour actually. I added t3 lowered Armour and was still puffy at times, and the weight has gone up a little. Imbalance can do that and bad hypo.
Yeah, I'm not sure about histamine problems....why would you have them, I mean, to all different meds?
Oh dear, yes you did, I was curious as never did t3 only. I noticed only that when added 10 mcg t3 to Armour I had more energy, I was able to walk 9 km a day even with my heavy legs.
Oh yes and sodium and aldosterone I did at my local private lab
How much Armour were you taking when you added the 10 T3 and did you reduce your NDT or hold it steady? I long to be able to walk again.
I dropped to 2 grains, I waited almost 8 weeks. But it was a rollercoaster, I didn't know what was what. I was getting hypo in some aspects and hyper in others. I know....I can't work since June. I am very dizzy, breathless (this starts after I take meds). 1 or 2 hours after meds I'm so tired I fall asleep and then 3-4 hours after I feel like passing out from weakness.
That sounds dreadful. I'm still trying to keep my business going, but it's skeleton hours. And still neighbours expect me to feed their pets when they are away and mum wants me to do so much for her. Only my husband sees it and understands.
Yeah I feel you, I bake sourdough breads as a side business. It keeps me going. And I'm 39 years old. Yeah a lot of people don't understand, they really don't. But we will get out of this.I had a call with my family doctor and endo, they want me to do MRI of adrenal glands, potentially pituitary and full body CT. Oh boy. And I'm prescribed steroids as well.
Gosh that’s a lot. But wonderful that they are looking. No one is looking for me other than me. Trouble is I am running out of money to do the looking with.
They are looking only now, I spent 6 years with nobody caring. I understand that and I send you big massive hugs. Yes, same here, living off my savings...I'd say test acth aldosterone sodium if you want to look more into adrenals.
Interestingly I think I had histamine problems last year. I definitely reacted more strongly to insect bites than I ever have anyway
I haven't been bitten for ages. I don't really understand why this doctor thinks it might be my problem when really my thyroid hormones are so low. But to be fair, she's not aware of the hormone levels yet. Now I have them I will send them in for her to see because she's interested and wants to learn more.
Turquoisenona,
Oh, how horrid for you losing your endo when you need him.
If you are in dire straits and wish to swop back to Levo you can make a straight switch over to your previous dose. Once medicated we only need to introduce different meds slowly if they contain T3, and you particularly don’t want those FT4 levels reducing any further.
However, you have only been on Armour a few weeks and personally I would give it a longer try. However, be aware myself and others have found Armour to be T3 potent and had to reduce NDT dose and add in Levo. I take around 1 grain Armour + 75 mcg Levo.
Taking more meds will not necessarily raise the ‘frees’, usually unless you are in need of those meds, as the body has many protective mechanisms in place to prevent tissue over stimulation. When we are hypo and possibly iron/nutrient deficient it is easy to miss your sweet spot and ‘free’s can actually start reducing, especially FT3 (even with more meds).
Did you reduce your NDT when you added Levo?
Ah ...Somebody else on here thought I would need to gradually switch over. No I didn't lower my NDT dose when adding a little Levo...maybe I have been having too much T4 the last few weeks. Perhaps I would be happier taking a mixture (wallet wise too!) I will hopefully be able to speak with my private Dr once she has recovered.
Hey there, I've been on Armour since 2015, doing pretty well on it until 2017 until things went south, most likely due to cortisol issues, not Armour itself. I am still on it and been on many others meds and always go back to Armour, because it is more gentle. I tried more t3 recently, the peaks and throughs were terrible, but it was also helping someway. Levo never did much for me, but also didn't make me feel terribly awful, just my conversion is bad.My suggestions:
1. Your dose is too low...yes people on here say 8-12 hours testing after dose, but that's for synthetic t3 as it peaks 2-4 hrs after the dose. NDT is attached to thyroglobulin which takes longer to detach from, it peaks 4-8 hours after the dose, so testing after 18-24 hours is fine most of the time. So don't worry about that.
2. Breathlessness - I was also questioning if this was my iron/ferritin and no, it wasn't, I even had iron infusion at the clinic to confirm that and it didn't do anything, beautiful levels of iron and ferritin and I'm still breathless, it's thyroid related. So go with your gut if you feel its thyroid related.
3. Adding t4 to your dose or Armour won't do any good if you don't convert T4 well. I would increase Armour if I were you. Take a note when you feel worse, if it is to do with your dose distribution. Some people take Armour in one go, everyone has a different way of doing it.
4. Check cortisol - blood serum and saliva, this should be done before commencing Armour, and this is what my gp did in 2015, he ordered a cortisol saliva test to see if I will tolerate Armour.
Thanks for all that
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