Low B6... taking a complex with pyridoxine which obviously doesn't suit

[TiggerMe]

Back to the search for the best B complex (Thorne being elusive at the moment and didn't do particularly well at keeping my B12 up)... one which contains pyridoxal 5' phosphate

Does anyone rate Igennus Super B Complex? All suggestions welcome 🤗

[SeasideSusie Remembering]

Eeyore100

The reason you don't see Igennus Super B suggested any more is because it contains Vit C. B12 and Vit C should be taken 2 hours apart as Vit C can keep your body from using the B12.

[TiggerMe in reply to SeasideSusie]

Too busy looking at the B's to notice the C's thanks SS 🤗

[radd in reply to TiggerMe]

Eeyore &  SeasideSusie

Igennus Super B complex only contains 80mg Vit C per tablet to AID absorption (similar to taking Vit C taken with thyroid meds or iron when digestion/absorption is poor).

Vit C only impairs Vit B absorption where significant amounts are involved such as 3g and above. We eat lots of foods such as broccoli and oranges where we gain both Vit C and Vit B’s together as they work along side each other. It is worth noting that very high amounts of Vit C can impair other nutrients besides Vit B's also.

Eeyore, Igennus for Europe/UK only contains 10mg Vit B6 but the original still available in America contains 25mg. iherb might be able to provide it.

[SeasideSusie Remembering in reply to radd]

Vit C only impairs Vit B absorption where significant amounts are involved such as 3g and above.

If that's the case it's not mentioned in the articles I have about not taking Vit C at the same time as B12

webmd.com/vitamins-and-supp...

If you also use vitamin C, put 2 hours between them. Vitamin C can keep your body from using B12.

sheknows.com/health-and-wel...

According to Dr. Airey, some studies have shown that Vitamin C could break down Vitamin B12 in your digestive tract, reducing your B12 absorption. As a result, he says you want to wait at least two hours before taking Vitamin C with your Vitamin B12.

[radd in reply to SeasideSusie]

SsS,

Both your articles are hearsay that don't mention amounts or more importantly any references. Where are they getting this info?

There are many research papers that identify small amounts of Vit C enhance absorption in most nutrients but high amounts of Vit C impairs.

[TiggerMe in reply to radd]

Thanks Radd, it looks like iHerb don't deal with Igennus?

I've been using the buffered Vit C so in theory I should have a reasonable constant level of Vit C rattling around🤷‍♀️

[Sneedle]

Is this any good Eeyore?

BIOCARE Methyl B Complex

On amazon and other places.

I've got a bottle but not started yet.

Sorry no link

Or lonk

😁

[SeasideSusie Remembering in reply to Sneedle]

Just to make you aware TiggerMe this product contains 25mg B6, we always say here that for long term use it's recommended to take no more than 10mg daily. Biocare has this on their "Warning" tab for this product

Long term intake of amounts greater than 10mg of vitamin B6 daily may lead to mild tingling and numbness.

[TiggerMe in reply to SeasideSusie]

Oh yes! Thanks again SS... it's a bloomin minefield 🫤

Lacking in B6 🧠

[Sneedle in reply to SeasideSusie]

Ooh that's good to know - I wonder why they put so much in then? Or would it be ok to take if you wanted to raise your B6 say over a month or two? This is not my case but just wondering.

[SeasideSusie Remembering in reply to Sneedle]

They've made one of those strange B Complex where almost everything is the same dose, we see B25, B50, B100. We don't necessarily need the same amount of everything, goodness knows why they make them, probably the same reason why they make multivitamins - if it sells they'll continue to make it 🤷‍♀️

[Sneedle in reply to SeasideSusie]

Oh yes I hadn't noticed all those 25s! It's like they sit there saying 'Ooh I'm feeling 25 today, let's market one of those'.

Sorry Eeyore😀

[TiggerMe in reply to Sneedle]

I think this is why I always end up back at the beginning with Thorne Basic B

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to SeasideSusie]

Completely agree, Susie.

The first time I saw one of these products, I thought they meant something like 50% of daily requirement of each vitamin. Which at least makes some sense (though still misguided). Couldn't believe it when it was amounts.

Just looked up one such product which says:

Thiamin 100 mg 9091%

Vitamin B6 100 mg** 7143%

Pantothenic Acid 100 mg 1667%

Riboflavin 100 mg 7143%

Niacin 100 mg NE 625%

Inositol 100 mg

Choline 20 mg

Folic Acid 400 μg 200%

Vitamin B12 100 μg 4000%

D-biotin 100 μg 200%

You can see that in that neat list of 100s, they bizarrely, and seemingly randomly, switch to 20 for choline (which isn't usually thought of as a B vitamin). And 400 for folic acid. And as percentages they appear close to random numbers!

I suspect they are concerned that someone who is pregnant ends up with insufficient folate and blames them. Yet are concerned 100 micrograms would be too much and/or cost too much. But it undermines the numerological approach.

USA daily requirement for choline is around 550 milligrams - so 20 is a drop in the ocean.

[radd in reply to helvella]

helvella,

Choline is part of the methylation process. Better quality supplements focusing on improving methylation often include it now.

Yes, agree with disproportionate amounts in Ignennus. I'm thinking they are covering all eventualities with excess pee'd out 😳. Not a great strategy.

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to radd]

I have no issue with adding choline - but a forgettable amount makes it look like all they wanted was to hit a target of ten substances to make claims about!

(This is a random other product. Not Igennus. And 100 milligrams of B6 would make me refuse ever to take it.)

[radd in reply to helvella]

Soz, meant Biocare 🙄

[TiggerMe in reply to radd]

helvella just looked at Dr Vegan and they seems to like 50's?

[HealthStarDust in reply to Sneedle]

Too much B6. Not worth the risk.

[TiggerMe in reply to HealthStarDust]

Good spot! I was trying to find a bigger label to read 🥸

[SlowDragon Administrator]

personally I get on absolutely fine with Igennus - one tablet per day

(Full dose is 2 per day)

Nice small tablet

But some people prefer Thorne

[Gingernut44 in reply to SlowDragon]

Me too - I couldn’t tolerate Thorne.

[Topsy33 in reply to SlowDragon]

Me too Slow Dragon. It is the only one I can tolerate. Even then, I take 1.5 Tabs a day instead of the recommended 2.

[Blissful]

taking a complex with pyridoxine one which contains pyridoxal 5' phosphate

Just for info: Pyridoxine is the INACTIVE form of B6, Pyridoxal 5' phosphate is the ACTIVE form. (akin to Pantothenic Acid B5 versus Pantethine).

Some people can have issues/unpleasant reactions to activated vitamins - I think this is because of methylation being either genetically "wonky" and/or epigenetics at work.

thorne.com/take-5-daily/art...

I think most B Vits are usually best taken in the morning but apparently B6 is recommended to be taken at night.

Smoking is said to inactivate B6.

[TiggerMe in reply to Blissful]

Useful link thanks...

I shall add in a separate P-5-P to the evening rattle 😏 looks like it's ideal to add to Zinc and Magnesium luckily

(akin to Pantothenic Acid B5 versus Pantethine) the last two I have used use calcium D-pantothenate? Don't seem to see Pantethine used in the complex's... though the other seems to work ok

[Blissful in reply to TiggerMe]

Don't seem to see Pantethine used in the complex's

Here's info on Pantethine

wellnessresources.com/news/...

"Pantethine is a derivative of vitamin B5 (pantothenic acid). Regular vitamin B5 must go through five enzymatic conversions before it can become CoA. Pantethine goes through one. In individuals with fatigue or metabolic problems, the conversion of regular vitamin B5 into CoA is reduced, or even impaired. Pantetheine is double bonded with sulfur to form the dietary supplement ingredient, pantethine. The sulfur bond enables pantethine to have special biological activity that vitamin B5 simply does not have. The information in this article specifically applies to pantethine, whereas regular vitamin B5 has not remotely been shown to produce these benefits. "

CoA is an essential primary input to the Krebs Cycle/Citric Acid Cycle/Cellular Respiration.

[Elisabeth41]

Igennus was the one recommended when I first came to the forum. It works fine for me and I am tested regularly before I see my endocrinologist.

[Hidden]

There are two popular versions of Thorne B complex - stress formula and basic formula. Both are freely available on EBay and less expensive than they were when Amazon stocked them.

Be aware that the ‘Basic’ version has a different formula, with a higher B12 content at 400 mcg. The ‘Stress’ version contains 100 mcg B12 and a higher amount of Vitamin B6.

[emilysnannie]

Hi I only buy Dr Vegan supplements as they are amazing. Im gluten free wheat free lactose free and find these vitamins & minerals suit me . They also have a very good person who will look into your requirements. Hope this is of some help.😀

[radd in reply to emilysnannie]

I love Dr Vegans 'Vegan Nights' 😴 💤

[TiggerMe in reply to emilysnannie]

Thanks, I'd not come across them, but they use pyridoxine in their complex

[Regenallotment]

Igennus did nothing for me, I was really good took as described, religiously, levels of everything plummeted. Numb arm tingle came back.

I get Thorne from iHerb and have separate folate, B12 and Biotin on standby and alternate them and fill the gap with B12 and folate in testing week.

Edit: I did email them and ask about the Vit C and they replied saying what others have said a low dose to aid absorption.

🌱

[asidist]

I only take Thorne Basic B occasionally now but it never helped my B12 much either, so just take a separate b12 more often.

I found it useful to use a nutrition tracking app to see what I’m lacking in my diet (usually for me it’s thiamine and niacin) so instead of continuing to take high doses of all the b vitamins in a b complex regularly, I just take a crumb or small portion of a B1, niacin, and b12 pill almost daily so that I’m getting closer to (still notably higher, but not as much so as in Thorne) physiological amounts more regularly. The nutrition tracking app also helped me learn what foods I need to try to include regularly to help with nutrients I can be borderline on, for instance eggs and green tea help me get enough riboflavin (b2).

Did you test for b6 and get a low result? If it helps, bananas and potatoes are great for B6. I eat those almost daily for potassium too so win win. Legumes and avocados are good for B6 too, though I think I remember you saying you don’t do avos.

Best of luck

[TiggerMe in reply to asidist]

Interesting that Thorne didn't work so well on your B12 levels either, I thought that was the easy one!... I've just had a result back showing low B6 though this is using liposomal B complex and added sublingual B12

Well remembered, yes I can't do histamine and nightshades, sneak the odd green banana in though

Results

[asidist in reply to TiggerMe]

True now that we’re talking about it, does make me wonder how effective Basic B might be with other Bs if it’s not very effective with B12. For me at least, that’s the one B vitamin that is probably as a standard perpetually lacking in my diet with no hope for improvement (limited animal and seaweed products, and only occasional organ meats), but the amount in a pill still should more than make up for that.

Never considered that other Bs could be tested (or would be ordered if asked for) but would be interested if so - the situation might be different for me in the US, but curious if you convinced your doctor to test those or had to go private?

Sorry can’t offer more targeted B6 foods, not super familiar with what falls into categories of nightshades or histaminic foods. And the nutrition tracker I use says there’s not enough data on biotin to even track it, though it does suggest peanuts and almonds as sources in addition to eggs and “meat” (doesn’t specify type).

[TiggerMe in reply to asidist]

These results are from a private OAT test which has to be sent to America as it is done by Great Plains Labs... not available in the UK labs... and thankfully just a urine test

Thanks for looking into the others 🤗 typically potatoes, peppers, tomatoes are nightshades. Bananas, avocadoes and legumes high histamine 😕

It was something that     helvella said that B6 in the form of pyridoxine isn't necessarily as available as P-5-P which gets changed into pyridoxine and can even block uptake 🤯... Thorne does use P-5-P but this latest one doesn't 😵 honestly we thought the B vits were the straight forward ones... I do find sublingual B12 works best

Edit... Also my B2 is pants!

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to TiggerMe]

helvella - Vitamers of Vitamin B6

Some time ago, I mentioned that the form in which we take vitamin B6 is important. I think I linked to this paper:

helvella.blogspot.com/p/hel...

[Regenallotment in reply to TiggerMe]

Solgar do a biotin if that is of any interest. I ordered some to try. Mixing it up a bit 🌱

[TiggerMe in reply to Regenallotment]

Typo by me... it's my B2 that is pants!

[Regenallotment in reply to TiggerMe]

Morning, gotta say the way it looks to me Your B2 is high…. Has a red H. 🤷🏽‍♀️ Lows are B6 as you already mentioned and Biotin in range but below the orange box… sorry being a pedant x

[TiggerMe in reply to Regenallotment]

Morning... you are right in that it looks that way but the little * denotes high being deficient and low also possibly being deficient!! 🤯

Sorry I've cropped that bit.... bear with

Edit ... * A high value for this marker may indicate a deficiency of this vitamin.

[Regenallotment in reply to TiggerMe]

🤯 apologies for spam 🤐

[TiggerMe in reply to Regenallotment]

I'd cropped off the important bit!! 10 out of 10 for paying attention 🤗 Honestly you need a degree to understand the in's and out's of this test... great brain stretch and very thorough though 😏

[radd in reply to TiggerMe]

Eeyore,

'Riboflavin deficiency is extremely rare in the United States. In addition to inadequate intake, causes of riboflavin deficiency can include endocrine abnormalities (such as thyroid hormone insufficiency) and some diseases [1].'

ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/R...

I wouldn't increase B2 dosage. The repercussions of years of inadequate thyroid conditions can take years to unravel and this might rectify itself within time. Taking high doses won't necessarily increase levels until the body is ready to do so.

What was your Glutaric Acid marker?

[TiggerMe in reply to radd]

53 Glutaric * 0.04 - 0.36 H 0.37

* A high value for this marker may indicate a deficiency of this vitamin.

Interesting thanks Radd, yes looking at my results my metabolism is asthmatic to say the least !

Low B2 certainly ties in with my 4 day migraine, also non dairy, minimal meat doesn't help, I do use nutritional yeast... I'm going to skip the B complex for a bit so looking to get my B2 elsewhere... you'd think 769-1000% was excessive, I wonder why they put that amount in complex's? I shall likely be taking less...

Of course I do eat grains which can tie it up too 🙄

I've obviously been getting it wrong so I'll try a different route and get it wrong a different way for a change 🤷‍♀️😆

At least I can clearly now see the reasons why I have so little energy 🫤

[radd in reply to TiggerMe]

Eeyore,

Yes, agree as you can’t be sure of a true vitamin deficiency without a blood serum test(s) anyway.

OAT is great for assessing fungal markers, etc, because knowing the amount pee’d out gives a clear indication of the amount in the body, but vit results work completely differently because are wanted substances that our bodies need to develop and function normally.

Maybe if anything you’ve just been taking too much B2.

[asidist in reply to TiggerMe]

Wrote a longer reply couple days ago but phone died on me and lost it - glad you get plenty of input from others though 😊

Not sure I followed the rest of the conversation properly (difficult for me to do these days 😭) but f you’re looking to get more B2 from foods, a few sources that may work with your restrictions: eggs, mushrooms, green tea, green beans

Hope you find the balance you’re looking for

[TiggerMe in reply to asidist]

Oh bless you, that is 🤬 isn't it 🤗

Threads on here are almost impossible to follow if you're not in it from the start... It's not just you 😕 such a shame as there is so much useful stuff hidden within, I try to go through and pick the bones out of old threads

I'm hitting the eggs hard as thankfully have a lovely organic, free range flock a gentle bike ride away and also nutritional yeast, which is weird stuff but ok with eggs thankfully 🙂

I've actually switched to white tea to avoid the fluoride 🤷‍♀️

[Jaydee1507 Administrator in reply to TiggerMe]

What test was this please?

[TiggerMe in reply to Jaydee1507]

OAT - Regenerus

[Jaydee1507 Administrator in reply to TiggerMe]

Interesting. So what will you do with the results?

[TiggerMe in reply to Jaydee1507]

Completely re-jig my supplement regime and aim to get a few specifics into my diet to off-set the lack of dairy and red meat

More regular use of betaine to aid protein absorption

[humanbean]

Does anyone rate Igennus Super B Complex?

I took it for a long time and liked it. I never had an issue with my B12 levels (which I always keep very high). I like the freedom I had to take 2 tablets a day (i.e. the full dose suggested on the bottle), or to take 1 a day when I thought I didn't need as much, or to stop it altogether when I wanted a break. With Thorne it is 1 or nothing. And if I remember correctly the Igennus was cheaper than the Thorne.

[TiggerMe in reply to humanbean]

Yes, I liked the idea of being able to cut back as like you say Thorne is a sledgehammer