As mad as it sounds, every time I re start a B complex the liver pain returns
I’ve had mildly raised liver enzymes with early morning liver discomfort, every single day for years but recently both have worsened and the discomfort became actual pain. However, on rising, the pain dissipates immediately. Had several investigations but all normal apart from the enzymes
A month ago I decided to stop all supplements to give my system a break. I was hoping the liver pain would subside but it didn’t. After reading on here about tudca I gave it a go. The effect was astonishing, the second day of taking just one capsule instead of two, the pain disappeared as though it had never existed. Not a trace of it. I was and remain amazed at the sudden and profound effect. I can only imagine the enzymes will decline in time too
After three weeks I reintroduced the B12 complex and the very next day I had early morning liver discomfort so I stopped it and after two days the pain was gone. I tried again a few days later and again the pain returned
Any thoughts on this?
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I found adding L-glutathione along with tudca sorted out my raised liver enzymes ALP (138 - 84) & double the range ALT (62 down to 25)
Some B vits will be stored in the liver and could aggravate things if levels are too high? Which B complex are you taking, perhaps a lower strength one might be better?
In the past I took Iggenus and then Thorne as recommended on here. I then switched to Pink Tribe as also recommended on here
You then suggested I read the B complex comparison chart and I learnt about P5P so I binned the pink tribe and when I re start will go back to my Metabolics liquid collection and will continue to blend my own
So I wonder if that’s what’s happening then that B12 is aggravating it. Thank you for bringing that possibility to my attention. I’m going to stay off it for a month and hope that the tudca you recommended continues to do its amazing work. I will also now try the L glutathione to give an extra helping hand to my poor old liver
All quite high dose ones so maybe you have replenished stocks? I think we are all supposed to give supplements a rest for one month of the year but for some our levels plummet. There have been a couple of lower dose B complexes added to the comparison spreadsheet
Certain B-complex vitamins also affect the liver. Unlike other water-soluble vitamins, the liver can store B-12 for up to several years for later usage. B-complex vitamins, in general, are also necessary for maintaining the overall health of the liver. However, like fat-soluble vitamins, certain B-vitamins can cause liver damage if you consume them in excess. Specifically, vitamin B-3, or niacin, may cause liver damage in high doses above 1000mg. More importantly, timed-release preparations are more likely to cause damage than regular niacin, according to the University of Maryland Medical Center.
A couple of months ago you mentioned the “component “ (can’t think of the correct word) of B12 complex that was responsible for turning urine yellow. Can you remind me which one please
Hi, please can you describe the pain? I have a stitch like pain which feels like persistent soreness under right rib. It started 5 years ago with just twinges. I’m taking Innegus and don’t want to be aggravating anything internally. I thought it might be gallbladder issues but had chest x ray and ultrasound and nothing seen. Waiting on blood results. Wondering if it’s NFALD or just muscle pains. Currently unmedicated for hypo so also wondering if meds might resolve it. Thx
Yes, it’s a stitch-like tenderness that “catches” on an inbreath. It’s only in the morning though and disappears as soon as I get up
Strangely, it seems to occur after 7am. I know this because I wake several times during the night and there’s never any tenderness
Mine started several years ago with a slight discomfort that worsened over the years. All investigations such as scans and elasticity test appear normal. Liver enzymes aren’t always raised, only intermittently
I hoped that being optimal with thyroid replacement would resolve it but it hasn’t. Doesn’t mean that wouldn’t work for you. Taking a break from all supplements, including B complex didn’t work either but starting tudca did. I discovered it through a conversation with TiggerMe , to whom I’ll be eternally grateful!
I then restarted B complex and the pain returned. Stopping again helped a little but then when it subsided I was stupid enough to try a second time and it returned, so I feel reasonably confident B12 complex is to blame. Again, doesn’t mean it’s the same for you but worth trying a month, maybe more, without supplements and if the pain disappears reintroduce one at a time every fortnight to see if you can identify the culprit. If the pain doesn’t disappear it might just mean the break wasn’t long enough. Who knows!
I should add that not all my liver enzymes were raised and those that were, were just marginally but they’re now consistently higher. Repeat tests sometimes show normal levels but they rise again, so be aware of this and repeat tests from time to time
I'm just trying to make sure I understand which form of B6 is in the product(s) that are causing issues?
And to note that one of the reasons niacin (as opposed to niacinamide/nicotinamide) is pretty much no longer used to reduce cholesterol is that it has side effects/adverse reactions.
I would say try each of the B vitamins individually to see which one is the culprit. I think that was your plan with Metabolics? Great supplement company, I use them too! I had mild liver pain for years but only when pressing my liver and no raised enzymes, cleared up when I started taking Liver Nutrients by Seeking Health. Interestingly TUDCA completely constipated me, shame as it's sounded really beneficial.
My bowel situation improved with tudca. Colour and consistency returned to Norma
I’ve tried milk thistle in the past but it didn’t help. I think I read something recently about why hypos shouldn’t take it but I can’t remember the reason and come to think of it, can’t remember much of the article at all🫤
Thanks for this helvella - great, looks like I've been potentially causing more problems taking milk thistle 🤦 Help my liver, hinder my thyroid, which do I choose, grrrr!
helvella, what’s NADH in the B3 world. I emailed Metabolics because all I want to do is buy from them the best sort of B3 to add to my blend and although I got a very nice response to my enquiry about what they sell, I’m none the wiser. All I wanted was a straightforward answer to what I thought was a straightforward question. Here it is:
Thank you for your email and I hope you are well.
In regards to your query, NADH is a coenzyme form of niacin, meaning it's derived from niacin but serves different functions in the body.
While niacin is a B vitamin that plays a role in energy production and metabolism, NADH is more directly involved in cellular energy production. NADH is a supplement to support energy levels, cognitive function, and athletic performance.
If you're looking for B liquids that don't contain niacin, you can explore options that contain other B vitamins like B1 (thiamine), B2 (riboflavin), B5 (pantothenic acid), B6 (pyridoxine), B7 (biotin), B9 (folate), and B12 (cobalamin). These vitamins also play essential roles in various metabolic processes and are often included in B complex supplements.
When examining supplement facts, look for the specific names of the vitamins rather than generic terms like "B vitamins" or "niacin" to ensure you're getting the formulation you prefer. If you're uncertain about any ingredients or their potential effects, consulting with a healthcare professional or a registered dietitian can provide personalized guidance based on your health needs and concerns.
I can give you a straightforward answer. I don't know. So, whilst it is straightforward, it is as unhelpful as their answer!
Seems a touch odd that they go on about getting the specific names and then offer B6 (pyridoxine) and B12 (cobalamin) as examples. While "pyridoxine" (often pyridoxine hydrochloride) is one specific vitamer of B6, "cobalamin" is a general overall term applied to all four vitamers of B12 (hydroxo-, methyl-, cyano- and adenosyl-)
You might get something out of reading the paper below - but it is way over my head
Role of NAD+ in regulating cellular and metabolic signaling pathways
An alteration in the NAD+/NADH ratio or the NAD+ pool size can lead to derailment of the biological system and contribute to various neurodegenerative disorders, aging, and tumorigenesis. Due to the varied distribution of NAD+/NADH in different locations within cells, the direct role of impaired NAD+-dependent processes in humans remains unestablished. In this regard, longitudinal studies are needed to quantify NAD+ and its related metabolites. Future research should focus on measuring the fluxes through pathways associated with NAD+ synthesis and degradation.
This is probably not helpful but just to add to the conversation...
My liver is bad at the moment due to a long period of undiagnosed hyperthyroidism and then months of carbimazole. I have been advised to begin a 'liver healthy diet', have a list of things to avoid, and was told it should return to normal eventually.
I tried to start b vitamins but every complex I tried gave me a migraine and made me sick - to the extent I had to go to bed for the rest of the day.
I have been fine taking b12 and Methylfolate separately. I gave up on the b complex.
After reading your thread, I suspect this is related. I will try a b complex again once my liver function has returned to normal.
Sorry to hear of your difficulties in getting well. You’re right to wonder whether there’s a connection, can’t do any harm
A few weeks ago TiggerMe mentioned tudca and I was incredulous at the immediate efficacy of it. It’s worth a bit of research. She also mentioned L glutathione but I have t used that yet, preferring to try one thing at time. It sounds promising though
this is so interesting, thank you, sorry i can't supply any information. Sounds like Tudca could help me, ( gallbladder issues) i can't take Milkthistle, which brand of Tudca do you recommend? Thanks and good luck
I’ve taken fulvic acid liquid in the past and I believe it was responsible for raising my zinc too much. I also have high ferritin levels and it contains iron, although not a great amount
Readers of this thread may find the considerable info about 'high dose thiamine' (HDT) of interest?
While all the vit Bs tend to work together ( - rather as in concert/symphony) in the main*, . . . the order in which depleted body CELLS are replenish matters - it's seems - according to this body of opinion. Vit B1, or thiamin(e) is said to have a fundamental role. (?For this reason, simply taking a high dose B complex may not be as effective as might be hoped/expected in some/many cases??!).
Contributors to these insights include Dr Derrick Lonsdale, & co-author Chandler Marrs: one site with much info about cellular 'B1d' . . . & 'HDT' is hormonesmatter.com ( - pointed to as just one source of INFO, ... rather than a 'recommendation' of any sort!).
Thanks, mine’s far worse now than when it began. It’s almost constant. I’ll knock the B vits on the head for a while and see what happens. I was taking only 1 innegus b complex as I have bright yellow pee with just 1 tables and was taking pretty strong b12 liquid supplement as well. It’s a bit of a minefield with supplements as before xmas I was bone weary with confirmed low folate but supplementing that soon had it above range.
It helped I think but I was feeling so awful I started taking b complex, methylated folate, vit d all pretty close together so it’s hard to tell which helped the most. I’m sticking to vit D and omegas now to see if the pain subsides.
Yes, strip all the b vits out and see if it helps. Although I wasn’t taking them 5 years ago when it started so really not sure if it’s an organ issue like liver or gallbladder not functioning or if it might be muscular 🤷♀️
Not really any other symptoms, my eye whites look slightly yellow but not remarkably so. The problem with such issues I fear is they aren’t always accompanied by obvious symptoms and so I’m not sure what to think. I did loose a few kgs quite suddenly and was eating normally but that seems to have settled now. Rather than gallstones it could just be a bile issue connected to lack of thyroid hormones. I don’t know. I’m hoping that meds might be the answer although I’m actually not feeling too bad in respect if thyroid symptoms currently. I was on HRT and unfortunately rather than helping ultimately it seemed to be aggravating. Now I’ve stopped that so am trying to let things settle. My mood’s a bit flat/ low, have dry skin, missing outer third of eyebrow and the rib pain but otherwise not too bad. I now know HRT can cause gallbladder issues so it’s all a bit of a minefield really!
I had some blood tests done alongside the x ray and ultrasound so will go back to GP. Unfortunately I’m between two services, private treatment for thyroid as was getting nowhere with NHS and the private GP’s online consultation so I’m not sure she can see that well on a screen. I’m hoping to see what impact thyroid meds have on things but am mindful could be NAFLD or something like that too which often doesn’t show up on liver function tests but can start out with pains. I did mention it to thyroid GP so she’s aware too.
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