I seem to end up following the wisdom of my elderly mum over diet and supplements as we seem to have rather similar health patterns.
So like many on this board are fully signed up to adding vit D, zinc and magnesium.
I read an article today from a group who call themselves the root cause protocol who very explicitly advise that their clients do not supplement at all with zinc and vitamin D ( and C I think too).
A very technical assessment that seems to suggest that zinc holds back copper and vitamin D affects iron management and fails to reduce inflammation and reduces magnesium efficiencies/ benefits.
I suppose everyone will have their views - some on here have suggested to add copper when dosing zinc so perhaps that point is now understood - I for one have found D a real help with magnesium and zinc so have no plans to backtrack.
Just taken aback that points i thought were accepted practice eg D is a real help are not believed by some.
Can post the link if some want more details…
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Danielj1
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It is also true that low zinc and high copper are common in hypothyroidism.
Do a web search for "hypothyroidism and low zinc" and you'll get lots of results back.
I have only tested my zinc and copper once (I'm hypothyroid) and I followed the usual pattern. My copper was over the range, and my zinc was below mid-range. So, personally, I wouldn't supplement copper. I have supplemented zinc before but don't remember getting any obvious benefits, although I will probably try it again sometime.
There is no way I would agree to give up vitamin D. I get far more arthritic-type pain if I stop taking vitamin D for a while. When I am supplementing I take 4000 iU per day. When my levels are where I want them I continue to take the same dose but reduce the number of days per week that I take it.
I've never studied the relationship between vitamin D and iron.
I take magnesium citrate several days a week, and find it very helpful for improving my feelings of "wellness".
I don't understand why but there are four versions of the above test which may or may not include doctor's comments and which may or may not include zinc and copper. I don't know why they have designed the test bundle like that.
It was on my "to do" list to check zinc and copper. I think Cerascreen did it when I last looked. When I look today, it is zinc, selenium and magnesium-no copper. The kit is £69.
HI Wua and thank you, I saw that too and was almost seduced by the price but decided against it because I’d like it to be the same company that tests both zinc and copper at the same time so that I can be reasonably sure that I can make a safe comparison between the two levels
However, I do need to test selenium quite soon so I may just take the cerascreen test as well. Will be interesting to see if the cerascreen and BH zinc levels compare
Hi. I have just found this blood test kit which does zinc,copper,sodium,potassium and magnesium, as a finger prick test. It is £75 from Medicinesonline.org.uk.
A very technical assessment that seems to suggest that zinc holds back copper and vitamin D affects iron management and fails to reduce inflammation and reduces magnesium efficiencies/ benefits.
Zinc doesn't 'hold back' copper - what does that even mean? But, as you know, the two need to be balanced. If you have too much zinc, your copper level will fall. On the other hand, it you have too much copper, your zinc level will fall. It's all part of the balancing mechenism. Thing is, though, hypos tend to have one of them too high, which means that the other one is too low. And, from my observation, it's usually the zinc that is low in hypos. But, one should have them both tested to make sure which one needs. Because nutritional supplements will only help if you need them. More is never better - and can be worse with things like vit D and calcium.
Yes, taking vit D reduces magnesium levels, because the two work together. So, if you don't take the two together, vit D will deplete your magnesium. And most people are deficient in magnesium, anyway, because soils are depleted. So, if you're taking vit D, it's a must to take magnesium with it.
Supplementation is all about optimising levels. If your level of something is already optimal, there's no point in taking any more. There are no magic supplements that will cure everything - or anything, come to that. But, if you are deficient in something, supplementing it can seem like magic. For myself, it was zinc. I used to have terrible muscle pains and was taking 6+ ibuprofen every day. When I started taking zinc, almost overnight, all those muscle pains disappeared. It did feel like magic. It's all about knowing what you need.
The only thing I would add is - does everyone know that they need to take the magnesium with the zinc for the reasons given - I for one had missed that point for a long time
I'm a bit confused here Danielj1 and greygoose. Do you mean both zinc and magnesium are needed to help each other, and need to be taken ? or do you mean we should take them both at the same time?
I've no idea what everyone knows. They probably won't unless someone has explained it to them - and that someone certainly won't be doctors! A lot of doctor recommend multi-vits!
Hi, if I am not mistaking, this is Morley Robins, I am familiar with this. They recommend not taking zinc or vitamin D in the synthetic form, but they do recommend other things, love cod liver oil, which is high in naturally occurring vitamin D, they also recommend brown rice solubles, which I think has zinc and B vitamins, they also use Beef liver capsules, which are high in B12, Vitamin A and Cooper, bee pollen which is High in B vitamins, and they recommend to start transdermal magnesium, then you can move on to taking oral magnesium. There are other things they do, this is part of a protocol, usually for people who have tried a lot of things without good results, also Morley Robins is known as the “magnesium man”, and has written about the benefits of magnesium and they focus on food based, or bioavailability of supplements thru food sources, I think it’s worth a try if one has tried everything without good results, me personally I always end up giving up supplements because of my gut and reaction to them, but that doesn’t mean that taking what they recommend is better, I think it’s just a different approach, it has worked miracles for some, I’m sure is not for all.
How can anyone not believe in vitamin D or in zinc, I thought that everyone would believe in both humans have known about them for decades, I can believe that they do not agree with taking them as a supplement everyone in uk should be taking vitamin D due to the lack of sunshine even in the summer we should be taking it, the lack of vitamin D causes you to have a lack of energy which I can agree with I spent 10 years living on my sail boat out in the Caribbean when I returned the sudden drop in my energy levels I could not believe it, it happened within a month or two I had done nothing different in my life except return to the UK I thought that I must be ill with something but after many trips to the doctor he said that the only thing that could be a problem was my vitamin D was almost zero plus my thyroid gland was not producing enough thyroxine and he prescribed it also he told me that I do not have to pay for prescriptions again as it was one of the exceptions to the rules about paying for them, now I take over the counter Vitamin D at 1000 units a day "I forgot what the units are" when I first started with the vitamin D he had prescribed a very high dose to build it up at a rate of 4000 units a day and whilst it has not returned my energy in full it has made a difference.Regards Poppy Ann
I do agree - the only thing I would add is that vitD works brilliantly with magnesium glycinate if you are looking for more energy - would not miss a day of taking them together now !
Hi there Danielj1 I try not to add anything else to my meds as I have trouble with swallowing them at the moment I have to take 7 in a morning and 9 before bedtime which I hate taking I use to believe that what the body needs it will either make or get you to eat with cravings but now a days I have to take all of these meds or suffer with horrible pain in just about every joint in my body my knees need replacing along with my hips plus my back is broke in 4 places plus all of the bones in my neck are falling apart which the surgeon says I will soon have to wear a neck brace then as it gets worse he will have to build a frame that attaches to my shoulders and is screwed into my skull to prevent my spinal cord being damaged so I am trying to not take any more unless they are prescribed by my doctor. I think it is time they started growing clone body's then do a brain transplant as my body is worn out but my brain is still working great.
I just read the protocol and have seen similar it’s like auto immune paleo - I get told regularly by thyroid experts to eat liver to absorb more iron but I can’t stand it.
A friend of mine did AIP and lost so much weight, she had more energy and felt amazing, her medication was reduced too.
The only issue is that it’s not sustainable for most people who are busy, and it’s expensive.
All the stuff it says to avoid is what I’ve been told too. Vitamin D can be absorbed through the skin and also from mushrooms.
Not everyone responds to 1 protocol but maybe it’s worth trying this and seeing how you feel.
I also saw info recently how regularly (6 sessions) lymphatic drainage by a Vodder therapist helps the thyroid.
Also weight lifting improves thyroid problems but you’ll need to increase protein..
this low iron thing is a constant problem if you start harder workouts including weights - another vital point I have only now come to realise is that not red meat iron in high quantities is not just a nice to have but a “must have” eg a ton of spinach / prunes / eggs/ fish/turkey etc.
getting a dizzy feeling after workouts every time you stand up was not fun - but has now disappeared completely
I do think all these books are great but we are all so different and needing such specific requirements - a thyroid alternative health practitioner would make a fortune in this country I suspect !
I agree with you, we are all so different, my osteopath mentioned thyroid issues can be linked to the vagus nerve and childhood trauma.
You might find Gabor Mate interesting - he has a couple of books about it,
I felt tired after lifting weights but drink more water and have a protein shake, much better. I only do 40 mins of weights and a bit of cardio, suits my body much better than all cardio. But my iron is a pain too, it’s very slow getting my levels up.
that is conflicting, she has a protocol called like that, but she does recommend taking vitamins, the original Root cause protocol is by Morley Robins.
By Morley Robbins, the one she has came later and she copied their name. Plus even tho she has some good recommendations it is not for everyone and she pushes her supplements hard.
Mmmmm! Suprise! suprise! .... Not!I ventured off your post to see if I could get anymore details , and lo and behold , The Root Cause Protocol is yet another one of these wellness gurus making people worry about the information they follow but offering to help you get on track with a personal consultation... For a hefty wad of cash , of course !
Or get the book and the products , after the complimentary intro book.
There may be an original author with some good ideas , of this I'm not sure , but the instant search of what was available on the web was certainly giving the impression of a money pit.
There are certain vitamins that benefit being taken separately each day for better absorption, like Vitamin B 12 taken without Vitamin C and with water .
Or taking your Vitamin D with K2 , and most of your other vitamins and minerals , after your fattiest meal.
As the evidence for the efficacy of Vitamin D is free for all to read in various legitimate pieces of medical research I would be very sceptical of this as a protocol . A new piece of research is just recruiting to establish the effect of the combination of Vitamin K 2 and Vitamin D on reducing inflammatory markers based on the global observations that Mortality Rates were worse in COVID patients who were Vitamin D deficient, and recovery was improved with that as a supplement.
I think I'm going to copy you and spend my money on my supplements instead of a consultation with yet another Magic Bean salesperson. Thanks for the heads up , if I hear any chums starting to discuss this in future , I will already know to warn them off it.
Sadly to my cost I contacted pretty much all of the US thyroid gurus - I even was given an advance copy of one experts thyroid book before launch on Amazon to review that is how knee deep I was - but really very little to show for it. The one person I would thank for all time is the medical medium who got me into juicing celery and spinach - the single biggest step jump in thyroid recovery bar none of any changes I have made
I like some of the things he says, but can’t take him seriously 100%, it’s just hard to when he claims he gets his info through a spirit, and at the end he does sell the supplements he recommends.
Couldn't resist a look at their ingredients, as I've wasted quite a bit in the wrong vits marketed at me in the past, quite a price for a bit of acerola powder pre-mixed with salt. Don't fancy a packet of their edible earth either 😁.
I’ve been following the work of ray peat and Morley robbins et al. For many years. They are very counter to standard alternative wisdom - encouraging raw dairy, discouraging synthetic supps, especially ascorbic acid, zinc and D. Tbh I’ve had to find a happy medium, because that’s usually where the truth is. I follow the dietary recommendations, but I do supplement. The state of our food chain is just so dia these days that I don’t think we can avoid supplementation, especially if compromised as we are. But just wanted to let you know you’re not alone in looking into this way of thinking… I see a lot of paleo/AIP/dairy-gluten-soy-grain-meat free type of thing, the ray peat has yet to make it to the mainstream, but I believe it will as more people get damaged by heavy diet restriction (esp. keto/vegan/carnivore) it’s also a diet designed to optimise t4 conversion so I predict it’ll make its way onto this forum sooner rather than later!
I am learning from all the ray peat ideas little by little but giving up dairy has been an absolute blessing and he was advocating I think drinking several pints a day - he also has an aversion to fish oils and I do understand why but I live off fish to get my protein - so I think this middle ground of finding areas we get trade offs from compromising is the only safe way …
Well it is easy to believe in whatever form of vitamin d you can get your hands on when your deficiency pretty well takes away your leg strength. And believe it - in its glorious synthetic form - when it gives it back.
For anyone that is struggling to get their numbers and strength back, there is a staple in Costa Rica called carao juice. They call it juice but it comes in more of a thick nectar. It works. I have a friend that had been deficient her entire life (numbers always under ten) - pica and all- and nothing worked for her. And she tried it all from GP to blackstrap molasses. And this did - numbers and strength. It is not iron itself but a blood builder, so it works for other ailments as well.
This is so much fun and there is so much money to be made whether you are selling supplements or magic.
I personally feel it all boils down to common sense. If you eat a full well balanced diet and enough of it, have no auto immune or other conditions, are never exposed to toxic chemicals, eat food only grown on virgin soil which is replenished naturally by crop and livestock diversity instead of chemicals, drink pure water from pristine snow melt or springs, walk or bike to work and engage in lots of natural movement (i.e. doing everything by hand whether it's mixing bread dough or raking the yard), you probably don't need supplements. (I don't know anyone this actually fits...)
Over the years I've relied on the Linus Pauling Institute (LPI) for reliable information of micronutrients and supplements and how to review my diet to fill in the gaps. In equine nutrition it's fairly simple to "balance" various minerals and vitamins in the diet - we send a sample of their forage (hay, grass or haulage) to the lab, compare to known requirements and prepare a supplement that fills the gaps and balanced to avoid competing mineral influences. In humans it's much more difficult which is why I rely on the folks at LPI who are doing it for me and test, via blood work, for the most critical things.
Zinc, copper and iron affect each other. For those taking zinc, making sure iron status and copper status are adequate is important.
Since many here take iron due to poor iron status, ensuring zinc and copper is adequate is needed. Hence, adding zinc (taken at different times than iron) is often done.
In healthy individuals, copper is rarely low, but in those supplementing both iron and zinc (at staggered times) there may be a need to occasionally supplement copper.
The caution is that low zinc and high copper may be a symptom in hypothyroidism, so one wouldn't want to add copper, without knowing.
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