Metavive plus t3 query: Hello all Sending best... - Thyroid UK

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Metavive plus t3 query

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy
โ€ข43 Replies

Hello all

Sending best wishes

...please advise me much appreciated

I've taken Adrenavive and Metwvive some time, I'm used to it, things are much improved from before but not at my best for sure and still tsh-ing at around a 4, formwhat it is worth

I do want to keep on metavive

But thinking can I intro a bit of extra t3 with it, to test the waters, and how do I do this please?

Presently Taking three of Metwvive 1

......does it matter how much t4 I take, or where it iis in the range ?

J๐Ÿฆ‹

Ps When I took to liking blue butterflies I never realised the significance! (Being the shape of the thyroid gland)

43 Replies
โ€ข

Ps

Vitamins are pretty optimal, Except forD, it needs to be higher.

I read recently of someone who couldn't get their D up similarily, and when she took t3 the level soared and she got wellness back so I'm prepared to try

I don't know why this should be a problem to increase, what I do know and having read that low D enhances preeclampsia, is that I've had this problem ongoing many years probably! (Can an automimmune cause low D)?

Or are there other reasons?

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator

Jeppy

Let's say Metavive is roughly the equivalent of NDT.

Metavive l is 15mg = 1/4 grain of NDT. You take 3 a day so 3/4 grain which isn't very much.

Taking the known amounts of T4/T3 in NDT are generally 35mcg or 38mcg T4 and 8mcg or 9mcg T3, and saying Metavive is roughly the equivalent, you are probably taking somewhere around 26-28mcg T4 and 6-7mcg T3 in your 3 x Metavive l.

Are you splitting the dose, and taking it on an empty stomach, away from other meds and supplements, etc, same as advised for Levo so there is nothing to affect it's absorption?

Taking your results from our previous post

TSH 4.36 Range 0.27 - 4.2

T3 4.44 Range 3.1 - 6.8

T4 13.4 Range 13.4 - 12 - 22

I think the first thing I would do is increase the amount of Metavive. I would leave T3 until you get a lower TSH, work on that for now. Taking NDT tends to lower TSH. Increasing your Metavive may increase our FT4 and should increase your FT3. Adding T3 may reduce your FT4.

When on a combination of T4 and T3, either synthetic or using NDT, hormone levels are very individual. Some people are fine with FT4 being low as long as FT3 is good (usually upper part of range). Others need a higher FT4. After much tweaking of my Levo and T3 over a couple of years, with optimal nutrient levels now (and still working on adrenals), I seem to need both FT4 and FT3 around 75% through range, but these levels wouldn't be right for everyone.

Your last result for Vit D wasn't too bad at 89nmol/L so I wouldn't worry about that too much unless it starts to drop.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

Thankyou so much SS

I thought D should be up there? Top of range being at 175 so half way

Yes I appreciate all you say,

But I thought t4 is irrelevant really? Surely it's the circulating t3 that matters ?

If we gain or loose t4 through medicating, it's surely of little significance?

Am Imcorrect with this thinking?

I am concerned now re my t4! I find it sad it's so low!? As BEFORE any hormone meds my t4 level was 3/4 way up in the ranges, ... but always the t3 remained in the lowest quarter so wasn't converting well and felt very ill, but see also I felt so ill too as the adrenals were struggling

I feel that my efforts to regain health have caused this now low t4 (probably taking the levo caused this )

I'm wondering why I just didn't take t3 from the start as I'm obviously a bad converter

.. Since writing this post I remembered Dr P saying he wantied my body to correct itself once the adrenals picked up and kicked in (I can't reach him now)

So now, (I'm Cringing ) I'm thinking I should maybe Stop Metwvive except for the Adrenavive, to allow my t4 to correct in natural fashion,

is this possible? Then il know where I'm up to with the t3 conversion now have healthier adrenals

Crossroads

๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿค•๐Ÿค•

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

I thought D should be up there? Top of range being at 175 so half way

As mentioned in reply to previous thread, the Vit D Council recommends a level of 125nmol/L and the Vit D Society recommends a level of 100-150nmol/L, so you're not that far away from the Vit D Society's recommendation at 89nmol/L, so I'd continue what you're already supplementing (you said you take 10,000iu daily, I wouldn't take more than this), keep your eye on the level and if it starts to drop there must be a reason. As long as you're taking magnesium, this allows the body to convert Vit D to it's usable form.

However, one of your previous posts mentions that you have leaky gut. This can cause malabsorption, so presumably you are addressing the leaky gut?

But I thought t4 is irrelevant really? Surely it's the circulating t3 that matters ?

T3 is the active hormone, of which we need a decent amount. A few people don't need to take T4 and do fine on T3 only. Some of us need T4, some of us need more T4 than others. Some T4 converts to T3. This is all very individual, you have to find what works for you.

If we gain or loose t4 through medicating, it's surely of little significance?

Again, down to the individual. I can only tell you of my own experience of taking Levo plus T3. I was taking 100mcg Levo and 31.25mcg T3. My FT4 was 75% through range and FT3 was 94% through range. I felt pretty OK. But because I was still tweaking my doses, and it's said that FT4 is fine lower in range, I reduced to 75mcg Levo an kept T3 the same. When I retested 6 weeks later, my FT4 had plummetted to 8% through range and FT3 reduced to 40% through range. So I need to take some T4 and keep it at a certain level, and although my conversion is poor there is still some going on. Now that wouldn't happen with everyone, and some people would be fine with FT4 at 8% through range. But not me. So we have to find what suits us personally, you can't go by what is right for anyone else.

I am concerned now re my t4! I find it sad it's so low!? As BEFORE any hormone meds my t4 level was 3/4 way up in the ranges

You have Hashi's don't you. This complicates things. Your levels are going to fluctuate with Hashi's activity.

I'm wondering why I just didn't take t3 from the start as I'm obviously a bad converter

These are the first results I can find from your previous posts

Tsh. 5.5.

Free thyroxine. 17.67. Ranges. 12 - 22

Total t4. 102.9. 59 - 154

Free3. 4.03. 3.10 - 6.80

then

Dec 17

TSH 4.07

Free thyroxine 18.6. 12. - 22

Total thyroxine. 119. 59 - 154

Free t3 4.49 3.10 - 6.80

Another recent one

Tsh. 4.8. (0.27-4.20)

T4. 16.2. (12 - 22)

Free t3. 4.52. (3.10 - 6.80)

If you were taking no Levo, or Levo only, at the time of these tests, none of them tell you if you are converting well. I think it's been mentioned before in replies that to know how well you convert you need TSH down to around 1, then the FT4/FT3 results will show if you convert well or not. You can't say from these results that you don't convert. If you were taking Metavive then it's impossible to know how you convert because you're taking T3 in the Metavive so you can't know your natural conversion because of this.

So now, (I'm Cringing ) I'm thinking I should maybe Stop Metwvive except for the Adrenavive, to allow my t4 to correct in natural fashion,

is this possible? Then il know where I'm up to with the t3 conversion now have healthier adrenals

This has to be your decision. You could stop the Metavive if you want to, go back onto Levo only, increase Levo dose every 6-8 weeks (or however long you need if sensitive) until TSH is down to around 1. Then you will be able to see if you convert well or not.

But, if not already doing so then you must address the leaky gut or your nutrients wont be absorbed

and you wont have good enough nutrient levels for thyroid hormone to work properly.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

Firstly Thankyou so much for your trouble

I wonder if some types of magnesiums are preferable for Vit D more than others

Yes I address gut daily and no more symptoms of the past anymore, and remain gf 98percent and happy with my vitamins etc,

Hashi are 50/50 in or out of range but when out of the range it is a low number

But realise low number can mean no difference depending on individual system

My thoughts re going clean except for Adrenavive vitamins and guthealing was to see what my natural levels would be now that I'm energised, this was the Dr P thinking along these lines. (I do hope he's ok btw)

Just remembered I must check candida again,

How long do you think it takes to settle back if I should withdraw metavive? ( it isn't something Il do lightly as realise there may be really blippy days possibly and waste of precious time )

The results above and from '17 I was not on levo or anything or hadn't addressed adrenals, (crawling upstairs days)

I'd only just been diagnosed

Please what is Total thyroxine, I've never understood that?

I do get what Dr P meant as I was really struggling (tsh high) but didn't have so bad numbers he said

But my adrenals were seriously causing the loss of energy and ill health

Unfortunately I didn't get to see him till May due to his illness so had began meds by that point in desperation and not knowing about adrenals as urine test said that word Normal

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to Jeppy

How long to get out of system the metavive, any thoughts on it please?

It becomes apparent that it doesn't matter so much about numbers rather than how you feel.

I'd forgotten how I couldn't keep my eyes open.......

I'm actually scared with the high tsh number as it causes so much alarm e.g. You are very hypo, bad for heart etc

If t3 is the Aim for wellbeing why not just take it to feed the body

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

How long to get out of system the metavive, any thoughts on it please?

Answered in reply to your other post.

If t3 is the Aim for wellbeing why not just take it to feed the body

I've already given my thoughts on that in my previous reply. We are all different, we all need whatever T4/T3 that's right for us.

The main thyroid hormone our bodies produce is T4, and some is converted into T3. If there was no need for T4 then our bodies wouldn't produce it. It's all about having the right balance of both to suit us as individuals.

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

My thoughts re going clean except for Adrenavive vitamins

Adrenals 4 saliva testing

Waking 18.9 14 - 21 Ok

- optimal is top of the range, yours is 70%

Midday 11.6 4 -9 High

- optimal is approximately 75% of the range, yours is over range

4pm 6.2 2.50 - 7 Ok

- optimal is close to 50% of the range, yours is 82% through range

Bedtime 9.3 O.80 - 4.50 HIGH

- optimal is at the bottom of the range, yours is over range

Looking at your adrenal test results, I have added the optimal levels according to web.archive.org/web/2018083... and you can see where your results lie in comparison.

Apart from the waking sample, yours are all too high.

Adrenavive is a supplement used to raise cortisol. If Dr P suggested that you take this, I am unsure as to why.

Adaptogenic herbs are "balancing" but in reality they actually lower cortisol (I can vouch for that). So something like Adreset or other supplement that has adaptogenic herbs would make more sense.

It might be an idea to retest your adrenals. If you do this, then I suggest you do one that tests cortisol plus DHEA, such as Regenerus.

I wonder if some types of magnesiums are preferable for Vit D more than others

Not as far as I know. You choose magnesium to suit your circumstances as different forms suit different things

naturalnews.com/046401_magn...

and remain gf 98percent

My understanding is that gluten free needs to be 100%. With some people, even the tiniest bit of gluten ingested accidentially can give symptoms for months.

How long do you think it takes to settle back if I should withdraw metavive?

T4 has a half life of approx 7 days, T3 has a half life of 24 hours. So for the amount of Metavive you are taking, assuming the figures given above, the T3 should be cleared within about 7 days. For the T4 to be cleared, that could take about 12 days.

Please what is Total thyroxine, I've never understood that?

This is the total amount of T4 that we have, either naturally or when taking hormone replacement. It's measuring the amount that is bound to proteins, and unbound (free). The unbound (free) T4 can enter the body's tissues, with the bound T4 it's attached to proteins which prevent it from entering the body's tissues. It's the unbound - Free T4 - that is available for our cells to use. Hence FT4 result is what we need to know, Total T4 isn't particularly useful.

I do get what Dr P meant as I was really struggling (tsh high) but didn't have so bad numbers he said

The not so bad numbers he was referring to would have been your FT4 and FT3, which were fairly reasonable given your over range TSH.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

so is it important if tsh is ovee if other numbers are ok?

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to Jeppy

'over' sorry

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to Jeppy

Yes, I do need to recheck adrenals via saliva test (and my DHEA was 3 a year ago, quite low)

Had sex hormones checked recently and nothing standing out there but have wondered re biodentical hormones I have to admit, as can relate to Carol Vaudaman entirely when she said the switch went off, It sorted her out in a week she says! (She felt suicidal she says with anxiety )

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

An over range TSH tells you that you have hypothyroidism. That is the NHS standard test. Nobody knows where our thyroid hormone levels lie when we are fit and well as we're not tested for a baseline. So even if FT4 and FT3 are in range, we don't know if they're the right level for us to feel well.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

Yes exactly. Thanks SS

But this is it, the NHS test says I am normal, no action,

I was only diagnosed by one doc who put my symptoms first!

And of course, I'm well hypo in other countries over 2.5

I do know however I had much more mojo ten years ago and I was 2.8,,, I found an old result in records

Do we suppose all my dementia clients are really deprived of and needing t3 in their brains?

Back to yeast, Well I just know I get heartburn after yeast but have followed TUK guidelines to remove gluten to bring down hashi

Just reading articles on it now, I do wonder if you aren't doing yourself any favours anyway by cutting out gluten as grains are significant in diet

And although controversial I was keniesiologist tested that I had yeast intolerance, not to say i won't tolerate it again at some point but as I get heartburn with bread I'm happy to accept that

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to Jeppy

Mybig question

When you stop taking t4 does your system say, hang on I now need to supply again? And so it does provide more ?

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

Thanks for the adrenal support (support)

Yes. Strange

I thought it was to 'feed them' as he was keen to get across that they are insufficient

(With respect I took all the results with me but weren't checked )

This is a bit upsetting but for whatever reason, energy has returned

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

Please can you direct me re Adrenavive raising cortisol

I'm obviously concerned

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

Have a look at this article (ignore the fact that it links to supplements) and scroll down to

"Adrenal supplements that work for low cortisol" and it talks about adrenal glandulars and adrenal cortex helping low cortisol. Adrenavive l is a whole adrenal glandular, Adrenavive ll and lll are adrenal cortex.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

... please can you send it S.S when you have a min and

Thankyou

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

ondietandhealth.com/adrenal...

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

๐Ÿ‘๐ŸผThankyou

Please may i ask you to clear up query at the thread bottom

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to Jeppy

To put record straight to be fair the saliva results you mentioned were '17 and these later ones were as below Feb '18 when I actually saw Dr P in Maytime - he didn't look at the results -

He used olden traditional balancing testings to diagnose insufficiency so on reflection I expect they needed upping

Feb 18

11.4 6 - 21

1.5. 1.5 - 7.6

1.5. 0 - 5.5

1.5. 0 - 2

"I think it's been mentioned before in replies that to know how well you convert you need TSH down to around 1..."

I don't think I've heard this before and I'm curious. Is there something you could point me to that I could read about this?

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to wellness1

Yes (hi) I just thought it was when people often felt wellness again. But I suppose it translates similarily as you feel well when have enough free t3 going around the body

However, to me, this isn't 'converting' as such. Rather taking enough of the t3 to feel well (sorry if splitting hairs with it )

wellness1 profile image
wellness1 in reply to Jeppy

Thank you for your kind response, Jeppy. I see your point. I was just directing my question to SeasideSusie, curious whether there is any more information on this. Good luck optimising your health. :)

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to wellness1

You will alway see quoted here by many responders that when on Levo only, the aim of a treated hypo patient generally is for TSH to be 1 or lower with FT4 and FT3 in the upper part of their ranges if that is where you feel well. This is included in the article written by Dr Tof,t past president of the British Thyroid Association and leading endocrinologist, where he states in Pulse Magazine (the magazine for doctors):

"The appropriate dose of levothyroxine is that which restores euthyroidism and serum TSH to the lower part of the reference range - 0.2-0.5mU/l. In this case, free thyroxine is likely to be in the upper part of its reference range or even slightly elevated โ€“ 18-22pmol/l. Most patients will feel well in that circumstance. But some need a higher dose of levothyroxine to suppress serum TSH and then the serum-free T4 concentration will be elevated at around 24-28pmol/l. This 'exogenous subclinical hyperthyroidism' is not dangerous as long as serum T3 is unequivocally normal โ€“ that is, serum total around T3 1.7nmol/l (reference range 1.0-2.2nmol/l).*"

*He recently confirmed, during a public meeting, that this applies to Free T3 as well as Total T3.

If TSH is too high then the thyroid hormones will be too low, and if there's not enough T4 it wont convert to enough T3. That's the closest I can get to answering your question.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿผ

...so is it the same fomat re tsh down to a one when taking ndt - not just levo?

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

No, that specifically says "the appropriate dose of Levo".

When you take NDT then conversion doesn't come into it, because you are taking exogenous T3 so you can't see how well you convert T4 to T3 naturally, the natural T3 level just isn't there, it's measuring your level when taking a hormone replacement containing T3.

Taking NDT tends to lower TSH anyway, so it tends to show low when tested.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

TY very much

There has to be the point you just do what it takes to feel well as I'm done with trying to convert enough, I can go back years

๐Ÿค•it's possibly to do with a double fracture, who knows x

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

Also please...

When on just levo and you surpress tsh to a one, does t3 always get converted?

In other words, can you remain poorly even with low tsh?

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

When on just levo and you surpress tsh to a one, does t3 always get converted?

A TSH level of 1 is not suppressed. It's in range. Suppressed is generally said to be below 0.1

Having a TSH of 1 or lower doesn't guarantee good conversion, this is why we say you need TSH to be around 1 to see what hormone levels it produces. If you have a high FT4 and low FT3 that shows poor conversion. Many organs are involved in converting T4 to T3, very little is comes from the thyroid itself. So you can most definitely remain poorly even with low TSH.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

Thanks

But I actually thought any levo taken is suppressing ?

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

I think you are mixing up "suppressed" with "low". Taking Levo at the correct amount for you will lower TSH. Sometimes it's said that below range is suppressed. Sometimes it's said that suppressed is 0.1 or lower. I have seen more articles that say it's 0.1 or lower. I don't have links as I can't save everything I read on my PC.

Thank you :)

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

in my case my tsh was too high but at that point I had healthy high t4 level and low ft3 so I therefore wasn't converting satisfactorily

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to wellness1

๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿผ

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to Jeppy

...are you taking metavive

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

Who are you asking? You've addressed your reply to yourself.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

Was To wellness )

In response to your comments though I really do understand

But do you also head for a tsh at one when taking ndt?

Yes, As I'm on metavive I may as well increase it, to see how it goes as you say

Thankyou

Il split doses then if this is the norm but would rather reach a point I can take the lot and get on with the day :)

Thankyou so much

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

But do you also head for a tsh at one when taking ndt?

As I said, NDT tends to lower, even suppress TSH, so if you're optimally medicated you will feel well, your symptoms will subside and your levels will be where they need to be for you as an individual. Most people have a low TSH when on NDT.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

Thanks

I know where I'm heading now - a plan

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

Ps

I phoned for more Metwvive and in conversation re Adrenavive I said I wouldn't need it anymore bla bla and he said he could t say a lot but Adrenavive does t always increase the cortisol so ,sh even there is more to this and isn't black and white. For me it saved the day but my numbers '18 were quite low, have ordered new saliva test

I really do t want to go back down that Rd so any suggestions for a replacement product much appreciated, you mentioned andeset

SeasideSusie profile image
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to Jeppy

I think you should wait and see what your new adrenal test results are. You can then see whether you need something to raise or lower your cortisol.

Jeppy profile image
Jeppy in reply to SeasideSusie

....yes ok thanks

Ordered DHEA too

Will post on if ok with last years results

- it will also be bearring in mind that I'm ticking theough stressful,situation at present

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