low, UNSTABLE core temperature

[muddlemand]

I know this is a symptom of hypothyroidism, but I'm pretty sure I don't have that (for the time being).

I'm hoping someone can point me to an article that I *almost* saw, or something else on this.

ETA: I've just found a really useful article - linking in a comment below.

In January when I suddenly discovered this whole new branch of things to find out which may affect my health (vitamins and minerals and food sensitivities), and was binge-reading articles and blogs, I saw a headline on a particular website "Unstable core temperature and [whatever the topic was]"... I made a mental note to click through to the article, clicked another one first, and got overtired and forgot to come back to it. By the next day I didn't know where I'd seen it and my browsing history was so huge, I spent an hour trying to find it before I gave up!

I *think* it was the website of a writer - not Chris Kresser or Malcolm Kendrick, but one of those who have books out and publish their views with the reasoning behind them. I *think* it was a woman, who shares the self-treatment that worked for her - Hashimoto's? or an illness such as chronic fatigue? I've done all I can to go back over what I was looking at but have had no luck. I *think* it was a piece on B12, "Unstable core temperature and B12", but even Google hasn't helped based on those search terms.

Backstory: all my life my normal body temp has been a little lower than the textbook 37C, so if I was "normal" I knew I had a slight temperature. This was fine, the standard 37 is an average anyway. Since at least the age of 30ish, it has fluctuated. In the old days it had phases of fluctuating, maybe a few weeks, then would be stable for months or years - I can't be sure as I only noticed when I felt a bit hot, and checked. A far bigger variation than the monthly cycle and it didn't have a regular pattern anyway. My norm was about 36.7C and when it varied, it went between maybe 36.6 and 37.0.

Over the years I have asked lots of health professionals and people with conditions, and nobody has ever heard of this. I have a diagnosis of fibromyalgia and poor regulation of body temperature is on the list features of FM, but in groups and forums and management courses, I've never met anyone who had come across this fluctuation. Poor regulation of temperature makes me ridiculously hot n sweaty after a little activity, and dreadfully chilled when I manage to cool down at all, and is worse when tired - but that is different (and I *think* doesn't show on the thermometer). This instability doesn't correlate with activity levels as far as I can tell.

Here: webmd.com/first-aid/normal-... it says hypothermia is defined as lower than 95F, which is 35C. (I assume the official definition will be the same anywhere, so I didn't trouble to compare lots of sites on this.) A minute ago I took mine, feeling poorly-ish but not terrible (after a very active weekend), and it was 35.3C! Last week I felt feverish, hot and shivery, and it was 35.9C. I can't remember it being below 36 ever before.

NB. I'm more interested in items that aren't about the thyroid, and I realise this is a thyroid forum! but this is where I have learnt everything (so far) about the whole Vitamin D thing and all related topics - my new obsession and hope although I've only scratched the surface - so this is where I'm asking.

[greygoose]

Hi, I'm afraid I can't help you with the article. Nor do I know much about temperatures. But I'm curious to know why you think you don't have hypothyroidism - because it sure sounds like hypothyroidism! And people diagnosed with fibro often turn out to have undiagnosed hypo. Have you had your thyroid tested?

However, Google did come up with this - not your article but might give a clue :

hypervibe.com/au/blog/are-y...

[muddlemand in reply to greygoose]

Thanks greygoose that's a pretty exciting article from where I stand! I came across adrenal fatigue when I started on this learning curve about thyroid, anaemia, Vit D, and all the rest... but that paragraph summing it up, I tick pretty much all the boxes! Except low b/p and blood sugars, but then I'm type 1 diabetic. Looks like adrenal fatigue is my next "chapter" to learn. I'll also start noticing if the temp fluctuations correlate with sugar levels, but I don't think they do.

Reasons I don't think I'm hypo: I've had my T3 and T4 tested, and symptoms are more hyper than hypo so I don't feel it would be worth fighting for my antibodies to be tested. (Hyper five years ago, treated by carbimazole, hence the T3 and T4 being tested; and I think/hope the symptoms are something else entirely.) Also I have recently found out I have severe Vit D deficiency, or had until starting to take D3, and low ferritin, which would account for things that have looked more thyroid-ish.

[greygoose in reply to muddlemand]

Well, if I'd been hyper, I would insist on my antibodies being tested. Hyper can be either Grave's or Hashi's, and I think people need to know. I'm lucky that my first endo did it automatically. But, I was rather hypo at the time.

[muddlemand in reply to greygoose]

It was enough of a battle getting the T3 and T4! And symptoms currently are nothing like hypo (not counting fatigue which I have other conditions to explain), in fact I'd say my skin is thinning rather than thickening - so for now, I'm choosing other battles. Glad to have learnt that antibodies are a thing, though, so I know for the future.

Is there really no other cause of hyper? From my bad bout of it five years ago, I remember that most but not all cases are Grave's (90%??) and I believe I haven't seen anything about the remainder. If not Grave's, you're saying it absolutely has to be Hashi's? My consultant back then said some people never have any more trouble after the first episode is sorted out, and that's the group I "decided" to be in especially as it seemed to be brought on by an-extra stressful period of life - divorce and losing all my disability support just as I was about to start living alone - which I still think is unlikely to be matched by anything that can happen unless I'm taken hostage by some serial killer. I've had traumatic bereavement and legal confrontations and poverty since then, nowhere near as high-stress as my marriage was.

[greygoose in reply to muddlemand]

No, I didn't say it had to be, I said it could be. And I would want to know for certain. Thin skin is actually a hypo symptom. Be very careful with symptoms. So many of them cross over between hypo and hyper.

It's true that some people have any more trouble. And so do. I'm afraid it's not a matter of 'deciding' which one you're going to be in. You can't control hormones by will-power. So, it's best to know.

[muddlemand in reply to greygoose]

So many details and all to be learnt! I thought thick skin was hypo, thin was hyper.

I know about deciding... but at the time, I needed positivity more than realism. And no point fretting about something that may never happen. Thought I'd got away with it until this winter! But still not sure it was my thyroid kicking off again - severe Vit D deficiency and anaemia would explain everything, and certainly the Vit D is making me feel much more normal.

(Wouldn't it be nice if we *could* control hormones by will power, though? )

[greygoose in reply to muddlemand]

We'd have to learn a lot more about them to be able to control them!

Hypos usually have thin skin. If it sometimes appears thick, it's due to the increased mucin underneath.

Nutritional deficiencies certainly can cause some of the same symptoms as thyroid problems, so very important to get those sorted. How's your B12?

[muddlemand in reply to greygoose]

I'm sorry, greygoose, I missed this reply somehow. My B12 is elevated but I have many signs of deficiency, so I think I'm not utilising it. Trying to research what would cause failure to utilise it and how to correct this. My GP did the blood tests to eliminate the scary reasons it can be high, things like liver failure and leukaemia, so I can relax knowing they're ruled out.

My skin tears easily and burns easily, eg burning lips/tongue on hot drinks and food when they're really not very hot. I get fissures in my fingertips (very sore) in cold weather especially if wet skin dries in the air - like chapping but deeper and you can see blood at the base of the "crevice", though they don't quite bleed. Extremely dry skin all the time. The ease of tearing made me think it was thin skin but I do have build-up of hard skin on my heels - which I take proper care of now since a podiatrist told me not to ignore it (I have podiatry checkups because Type 1 diabetic).

I looked up mucin but it seems to be an "ingredient" in mucus? When you cut me I don't ooze mucus. But the dryer bits of me always have layers of dead skin, still firmly attached but without sensitivity; sometimes they catch and begin to come off, and start scratching me so I snip skin off with nail clippers. Not as solid as fingernails but rather like that to deal with. So is that thick skin or thin skin?

I've seen great improvement since I started supplementing Vitamin D (not the skin, but energy and the rest) - but then, that severe deficiency showed on the blood test.

[muddlemand]

I have just found this:

nihadc.com/assessments/meta...

which I'm quite excited about - the first really clear statement that I have seen on unstable temperature. It says the instability means adrenal fatigue. Not maybe, definitely - I don't know this website though, and I have yet to check with other sites.

"temperatures reflect an individual’s metabolic energy state. ... Lower than optimal temperatures reflect a lower than optimal metabolic state which may be due to thyroid problems. Wide variability of temperature reflects an unstable or fatigued adrenal system."

and

"In a hypothyroid state, the day-to-day averages are low and very stable. In a hypoadrenal state including adrenal exhaustion or adrenal stress, the temperatures are low and unstable"

Hoping this helps someone, as it's another bit of information about the thyroid and the way the body's systems all interact, but one that doesn't seem to be mentioned in detail very often.

PS. The method described for keeping track of body temperature looks complicated, but I'm going to give it a try for a bit as I really want to get to the bottom of this and my temp has been variable for many years - in phases (with phases of being pretty stable). Not this week though.

[muddlemand]

I have just had blood results (antibodies and everything) and I am now sure I haven't got a thyroid problem . So something else is going on. This morning I was really freezing, couldn't get warm, shivering and icy hands/feet and so on. When I checked my temp it was 35C exactly - that's the cut-off for diagnosable hypothermia! By then it was warmer outside than in so I sat in the sun for 15-20 minutes and took my temperature again: 36C. Pretty quick to change by a whole degree C.

Wondering if it's simply that I'm a lizard and need to bask in order to function.

but seriously, this has always been a thing with me - for at least 20 years - but I'm now sure it's been getting worse in the last 6-12 months so I am determined to find out what's up.

[ShinyB in reply to muddlemand]

I'd be interested to know what your blood results actually were, including ranges. I've just read this post and replies, and kept thinking that some of your 'conditions' and symptoms are very much linked to low thyroid function.

That link about temp is interesting - I'm just having a look at it now. My temperature has always been strange too! Thanks for the link

[muddlemand in reply to ShinyB]

I once asked at a fibromyalgia management course if the fluctuating temp was anything to do with fibromyalgia. The woman running the course said she had *once* (in many years) heard *one* person with FM say that her temp fluctuated. Not officially a symptom of FM. ... I now think that it may be PA or whatever else, which is then misdiagnosed as FM or maybe leads to real FM.

My bloods... I'll start a new thread. I have them copied into a document so I can find them and keep track. But it may be a couple of days as I can't remember anything of what I was in the middle of discussing here on HU four days ago. It has been four days of month-end money juggling and the rain showing me exactly which bits of roof need mending! And "urgent" takes ages in my world, so it'll be a while.

However I'm almost certain my thyroid's fine these days - everything including antibodies were well within range, not at the edges of the ranges. But I will check again, thank you for taking the itnerest.

[ShinyB in reply to muddlemand]

I don't know if you've seen this information already but here's a link to Dr John Lowe's site web.archive.org/web/2010103... It might be worth a look at for you.

He's now passed away so the site isn't fully functional, but a lot of it is still readable. He wrote a book called The Metabolic Treatment of Fibromyalgia, linking thyroid function to fibromyalgia. I've not yet managed to get hold of a copy - they are very expensive! but apparently there is a chapter on thyroid hormone resistance.

My understanding is that basically some people's cells don't use the thyroid hormone properly, so your blood levels can look fine, but it's not actually getting in to the cells to do its job. Basal or resting body temperature being low is a key thing, and even the 36 that you say yours shot up to is till too low. I think they say it should be at least 36.5 for proper thyroid function.

shaws knows a lot about his work, and has mentioned that he used to be an advisor to Thyroid Uk. She also often posts these links below, which are to chapters from his book. You have to copy and paste the links into your browser for them to open.

Chapter 2: tinyurl.com/ya5blrr2

Chapter 3: tinyurl.com/y7ejh9sh

Chapter 7: tinyurl.com/ycxpz565

Here's another link to the Thyroid UK site with a piece written by him about fibromyalgia: thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/relate...

Sounds like you've had a very stressful few days Hope things get sorted and you don't get too exhausted in the process!

[shaws]

I am sorry you are struggling with your health. Blood tests for thyroid hormones and levothyroxine were introduced (I believe in late 50's/early 60's. Before that we were all diagnosed upon our clinical symptoms and given NDT (natrual dessicated thyroid hormones) which was first given in 1892 and before that we died.

About ten years after the introduction of levothyroxine and blood tests, three new 'diseases' were 'named' i.e. Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue and M.E.

I am not medically qualified and assume that as NDT contained all of the hormones a healthy gland would have produced, i.e. T4, T3, T2, T1 and calcitonin and increased slowly until symptoms were relieved and may be due to NDT being more conducive to the human body and suits some better than synthetic levothyroxine. Bearing in mind that millions seem to be well on levo.

Some people, like myself, levo didn't improve my symptoms, instead I felt worse.

Many find a combination of T3/T4 suits them (T3 recently withdrwn in the UK) and quite a number of Researchers have found that people only recover with a combination. For others they only recover on T3 alone.

A low temp is one of the many symptoms used for diagnosis before blood tests.

thyroiduk.org/tuk/about_the...

One doctor, deceased, said that we are in a 'parlous situation' due to the modern method of only going by the result of a blood test as many people have very difficult and different symptoms which doctors are ignorant about these 'modern' times.

thyroiduk.org/tuk/about_the...

[muddlemand]

Thank you so much, shaws and ShinyB , and sorry I've taken even longer to get back here - the busy week turned into a busy month and the next couple of weeks are hyper-busy too so all my health research is on the back burner! What's horrible is that when I pick things up from the back burner, I always have to start from scratch or at least go back through everything I learnt before, unless I kept a really careful log as I learnt each bit... which I never think of while first learning.

The only thing I'd found online that mentioned fluctuating temperature was B12 - pernicious anaemia - so a further question is *going to be* (when I can) whether it's possible to have that, or to eliminate it, based on what I already know or whether I need to go further with tests. What I know is that my B12 is high rather than low, and the potential scary causes (liver, leukaemia, etc) have been ruled out.

"should be at least 36.5 for proper thyroid function" - In fact my temp over a couple of months varied between a low of 35.0 and a high of 37.7! Never felt that I was "running a temperature" or any signs of infection. Last week it was running 36.5-36.9 consistently. Now back to my usual 36.0-36.5.

I will have a thorough look at all those links you both gave - many thanks. And at some point I'll put all my blood tests up and invite opinions! But only when I know I can give some time to reading replies. Meanwhile the thought that I may finally be finding the key to some, or even perhaps all, of my health troubles... will tide me over while I give my attention to other necessary projects.

[ShinyB]

I muddle my way through too lol, and find myself having to go back over the same stuff!

Sorry I haven't read your past posts and I'm too brain dead at the moment, ugh, but do you have hashimoto's? I know that can cause temporary whooshes of thyroid as the thyroid gland suddenly reduces its stores when under attack by the thyroid antibodies. Wondering if that might cause a fluctuation in your temperature?

This bit is from a book I'm reading by Mark Starr, 'Hypothyroidism Type 2' "Adrenalin is made from the amino acid tyrosine, vitamin C, and vitamin B6. The body’s source for amino acids like tyrosine is controlled by stomach acid. Normally when you eat proteins, stomach acid breaks them into amino acids including tyrosine. If you don’t have adequate stomach acid, you have lost your source of tyrosine and you will be deficient in adrenalin. Thus, the hypothalamic temperature regulation will malfunction even with enough thyroid hormone if you don’t have stomach acid. Making stomach acid requires iodine, zinc, vitamin B1 and salt."

I'm still trying to decipher it through the brain fog but I thought of you when I read it!

[muddlemand in reply to ShinyB]

Don't apologise , how would anyone know the detail about someone else - I can't even remember the information about me, and can't remember which questions I have posted before! I'm pretty sure I can't have Hashimoto's, my antibodies have been slap bang mid-range. I had a bout of *hyper*thyroidism in 2011-12.

On the other hand I am beginning to understand that the thyroid can still have something up, even with all blood tests showing perfect. And I keep thinking of "thyroid-esque" symptoms I have had for a long time. Such as less body hair - I didn't think of this until I found an old poem I wrote about having hair on my toes! I used to have hairy big toes, and proudly claimed it proved I had hobbit blood but in recent years they are hairless. I've never needed to shave legs/pits much compared with most women, all my life, but lately I haven't shaved for a year or even two, and hardly any hair visible. This is convenient, of course. Finding enough energy has been hard forever, but I've also been a night owl so it's hard to say - I may only need the motivation of enjoying what I'm engaged in, in other words I may be born lazy rather than energy problems.. Definite energy/fatigue since the early 2000s but before, it may have been the laziness... or not. Back when I didn't notice tiredness, I did have long-term depression - and I think those two are manifestations of the same thing (or can be). I can't think of the others at the moment but I have noticed other things that *could* be down to the thyroid.

Also all sorts of neurological stuff going on for many years. Which can be about B12.

I always say, if you're going to have something serious, make it something interesting.

[ShinyB in reply to muddlemand]

I long to have something simple!

Chuckling at the hobbit toes