Vitamin B12 and vitamin D3

[gabkad]

Alarming: yesterday I was listening to a radio interview (this is in Canada on CBC radio). Apparently 40% of the population is low B12. And yet, just like NHS over by all of you, doctors here are being discouraged from even testing for B12 because each test costs $40 and it's too expensive.

At the same time Health Canada announces to the population that taking vitamins and supplements is a waste of money and only benefits a very small percentage of the population who have a diagnosed problem.

What is government playing at?

4 out of 8 staff members at work get a 1,000 mcg B12 injection once a month due to diagnosed B12 deficiency. One of them got so low she couldn't get out of bed and walk.

Far as I'm aware, I'm the only one who is on levothyroxine. But others are anemic and all manner of problems which degrade quality of life and sap energy. I doubt this situation is unusual. So much for government funded healthcare.

One employee is going back to Slovakia for 6 weeks to have a health problem addressed because over here a person can turn into a human pingpong ball going from this to that but get nothing accomplished...this after almost 2 years. A pingpong ball that spends a few thousand dollars on ineffective therapy. No, contrary to propaganda, healthcare is not free. Some things are. Most things not.

Lousy healthcare is epidemic.

The only reason I know that I have two herniated discs pressing on my spinal cord is because I got a copy of the MRI disc and put it into the computer at work. I saw it with my own eyeballs. Otherwise it's just 'spinal stenosis' which can be caused by multiple problems. Useless reports. Useless superficial garbage.

The bottom line is nobody gives a flying.... meantime people continue to suffer not knowing why.

The New York Times had an article about how testing for vitamin D is useless. Levels of below 20 ng/ml (50 nmol/l) are significant and very few people get to that. Now they claim the Vitamin D council recommendations cannot be justified.

One week it's this. The next week it's something else altogether.

Who even pays attention? I know we do because we have a problem and here we are. But most people don't. And gradually their health declines for reasons that are entirely preventable. We have a serious lack of health education.

[Marz]

I cannot help thinking that Big Pharma are winning .... We must stay alert 😊

[Wendymary]

Get a Huge jar of marmite or vegimite spoonful everyday should sort your b12 issues Also plenty eggs etc for Vit d., better to get vitamins from food anyway

[Marz in reply to Wendymary]

We are what we absorb - not what we eat

[Michelle_Cheatley in reply to Marz]

Sally Pacholok The Movie. ?

[Marz in reply to Michelle_Cheatley]

b12deficiency.info/films/

[Michelle_Cheatley in reply to Marz]

Poor old Dr Carr.

[shaws in reply to Wendymary]

People with pernicious anaemia cannot absorb B12 as there has been changes in the stomach which doesn't allow absorption. That is why it is called Pernicious which means 'deadly or fatal' if not treated properly and that it another horrible death. I have seen it with my own eyes when my mother's doctor told her she needed no more injections (after more than thirty years taking it). Of course she and her daughters thought that was good as it meant she didn't have P.A. anymore. How wrong and shocked we were at the end of her life due to medical negligence.

[silverfox7 in reply to shaws]

My gran was taken off as she got older and told see would have a stroke if she continues. She died of a massive stone! I wish I'd known then what I know now

[shaws in reply to silverfox7]

There's no looking back unfortunately and we wouldn't be absorbing knowledge if it wasn't being on this site.

Some remarks we read on here I wonder why the professionals are not more knowledgeable. When someone dies through an expert's treatment, they should be invetigated.

[Jazzw in reply to shaws]

I suspect shaws that's because such investigations focus on the process rather than the outcome - e.g., was x referred to the consultant in a timely fashion, did a letter go to the GP, was a form completed correctly - instead of, "Hey, did we actually give this patient our full attention and have a good think about what might really have been wrong with him/her?"

Just an observation from someone who works in another Government department, where process often trumps outcomes...

[staruk in reply to Jazzw]

Totally agree low betide you if you disturb the process

[JGBH in reply to shaws]

They are not investigated by an independent body (similar to OFSTED for schools - most would be removed!!) and they feel quite safe and get away with murder time and again, often suspended for a while with full pay, at OUR expense and then they return to do more damage. Nothing will change unless there is a kind of mass revolution from patients.... Patients need to become more pro-active. Many just accept being bullied by GPs and other medical professionals. Also GPs need to be educated differently... but they are not, following a well established pattern over the years. Doctors have lost the art of making a diagnosis by observing/listening to symptoms and only rely on test results even though the results may be close to the so-called bottom of range, and they are happy with that!!! Easy.

[shaws in reply to JGBH]

You are right about :-

Doctors have lost the art of making a diagnosis by observing/listening to symptoms and only rely on test results even though the results may be close to the so-called bottom of range, and they are happy with that!!! Easy.

Some are good but then they are reprimanded or called before the GMC for not following guidelines.

[JGBH in reply to shaws]

It makes you wonder why the GMC is "working" in such a way that patients do not get the correct treatment.... What is the point of becoming a doctor if then you are reprimanded for doing the right thing for your patients?

Regarding guidelines: it appears GPs follow them to the letter when they recommend NOT to offer a specific treatment to a patient. However when they recommend, in the case of B12 deficiency that injections - post loading treatment - should be given every 2 days in case of neurological symptoms until there is no more improvement of symptoms, they then stop injections too soon and the maintenance injections are too far apart , they do not respect the guidelines. They also ignore the fact the tests for B12 deficiency and IF antibodies cannot be relied on for diagnosis, as well as there being no need for anaemia for a patient to have B12 deficiency, and yet they still persist on that useless "diagnosis method". I have giving numerous guidelines to my GP. They know about them... but persist in their blinkered ways.

I noted in another of your posts that you made a link between B12 deficiency and thyroid function problems... I have hypothyroidism. So it is another reason a GP should be aware of a patient's complex medical history.... However it appears this represents too much work for them... they would rather ignore it. I had to fight all the way over two years with severe and debilitating symptoms, this cannot be right in a so-called developed western country in the 21st century....

Sorry about this long rant: so much frustration over a very long time, and the need to "fight" for treatment when one feels so very ill is unacceptable. They probably think one will give up... so many do, I fear.

[shaws in reply to JGBH]

I was diagnosed by a First Aider and then got my first blood test for thyroid and TSH was 100. No need to say how unwell I was.

[JGBH in reply to shaws]

My goodness Shaws! That is horrendous. Poor you. Do hope you are much improved now. Life, it seems, often hangs on a thread... of luck. Thank goodness the first aider was around at the right time.

[shaws in reply to JGBH]

You can read my profile if you click on my name. You just cannot believe in this day and age that many still are not diagnosed, because the professionals don't even think about a dysfunction of our thyroid gland.

[JGBH in reply to shaws]

It is beyond belief that they are not taught anything about such a major gland that controls most of our bodily and brain functions and that has such drastic effects when it doesn't work as it should.

To spend 6 years as a medical student and yet being so ill-preparedto look after patients so that they can get on with their life is rather baffling.

[shaws in reply to JGBH]

Dr Skinner was a great doctor as he was pursued by the GMC due to complaints being made by other doctors whose patients he diagnosed and treated. He got involved a he was a virologist and patints were referred to him due to 'mysterious disease'. He saw straight away he was dealing with hypo. He then got lots of patients flocking to his surgery.

One of his friends did a calculation of the 'odds' on any doctor being treated as he was and it was 10,000,000 to 1. He died of a stroke and no wonder. He was fighting them on the basis of people not being diagnosed or not on sufficient hormones.

[JGBH in reply to shaws]

Since I have joined this wonderful forum I have seen the name of Dr Skinner so many times and understand why! What a wonderful man, a genuine doctor who entered the profession for the important reason of helping patients. How sad he was treated so shabbily!

I do wonder why some people go into medicine when all they do is press a button on a computer to renew the usual prescriptions.

It is difficult to understand the attitude of the GMC ( mainly made up of doctors of course!). It looks like a "conspiracy" of not quite treating patients according to their medical needs.... What is the point of that?

[shaws in reply to JGBH]

The BTA and the RCoP have made false statements about NDT and T3. They aren't scientists and Dr Lowe was;

thyroidscience.com/Criticis...

Despite three yearly reminders, they never did respond and Dr L died through an accident. He did say that there was corruption in many areas. That's why he resigned his licence so he could keep treating patients without action being taken against him.

[JGBH in reply to shaws]

I understand some doctors get "bonuses" from pharmaceutical companies for pushing certain types of drugs that do not really relieve patients' health problems.... and create more problems in time... so corruption indeed!

Very scary. What to do? It does make one feel rather vulnerable and frightened of what is to come.

[Michelle_Cheatley in reply to shaws]

How often do you read Pernicious Anemia listed 1st on a death certificate. ? Patient are treated for symptoms due to the lack of knowledge in the healthcare system.

[JGBH in reply to shaws]

Shaw, unfortunately the negligence aspect of the medical professions still prevails regarding B12 deficiency and pernicious anaemia. The worse part is that they still are unwilling to learn more about it and refuse point blank to change their concrete mindset...I believe it suits them, making life easier for them.

I also believe the rise in dementia and Alzheimer's is due, in part, to an epidemic B12 deficiency worldwide. So it is rather scary. What to do? I had a battle (over 1 year) with my GP to prescribe B12 injections.... and yesterday following a gastroscopy, the gastroenterologist confirmed definite gastritis and am awaiting biopsies results to look for evidence of PA. He recommended a low dose iron supplement (post biopsies results) as I have microcytosis (this was ignored by my GP while looking at blood tests results, insisting it was "normal".... and doing nothing!). The consultant also said in his report that the B12 injections (every other day since 6 February) have helped my symptoms a fair bit and that I should continue with that.

Nevertheless, it was not the GP who initiated I should see the gastroenterologist..... I requested it, and to speed up things went privately first.... I had gastroscopies done in the past but nothing came of it and no follow up. Seeing the consultant privately first (then being referred back to him on NHS) made the difference. So this is rather concerning. The NHS is clearly not providing a "safe" service to patients. It is not always possible to go privately for most people and yet we all deserve a decent health service.

Sorry to hear what happened to your mother. A painful and untimely death.

[shaws in reply to JGBH]

I am sorry you had mistreatment as well. I always thought doctors knew about disease/treatment. With B12 and hypo instead of simply being treated as it used to be without blood tests but the patients clinical symptoms. That expertise has been lost.

Thanks for your last sentence.

[JGBH in reply to shaws]

Thanks for you kind note. Simply reading posts on the forum one can see that so many people, in fact nearly everyone, are being ignored by their doctors. They are not really willing to help by correctly giving a diagnosis and some help in order to give patients a chance of a better and longer life.

[shaws in reply to JGBH]

The cost to the NHS is exacerbated, I feel sure, by bad guidelines thus patients maybe even develop other serious problems, i.e. like alzeimers. heart attacks etc. Re hypo we have to have sufficient for heart and brain health plus P.A. and stomach cancer.

In my own case I was an undiagnosed hypo, with many symptoms - always diagnosed as something else.

[JGBH in reply to shaws]

The NHS make poor choices: always waiting till a patient becomes too ill. No prevention ... An animal is better treated than a person because Vera's knowledge is usually superior to that of a doctor and they have to make a diagnosis based on both symptoms and tests results while doctors only look at tests results and do not worry themselves too much about finding the root cause of problems.

[HLAB35 in reply to Wendymary]

Processed food with added inactive forms of B vitamins: I can't do that any more. We made a lot of pharmaceutical and diet mistakes in the twentieth century and there is no place in my heart for nostalgia about those kinds of products if they continue to mess with nature and pretend to be health foods.

[Jazzw in reply to HLAB35]

We got obsessed with shelf life over nutritional value too. Seems that everyone fell into the trap of, "oh well, if it tastes ok, it must be all right"...

[humanbean in reply to Jazzw]

Not just shelf life! There is mouth feel, how shiny a food is, what texture it has, and lots more things :

theguardian.com/lifeandstyl...

[bluebug in reply to Wendymary]

How much food e.g. eggs, oily fish do you think someone needs to eat to get enough vitamin D so they aren't deficient? I suggest you look it up if you don't know.

Anyway the main way the majority of the world's population gets vitamin D is from sunlight, UVB rays, on the skin.

Now what product has been promoted heavily especially since the 80s that blocks this natural reaction?

[Wendymary in reply to bluebug]

I live in the UK so are weather not great in winter months ., but in summer they reckon 20 mins a day without sunscreen so it absorbs ., I eat oily fish twice a week eggs everyday ., They didn't have all these Vit tablets or injections etc years ago & they had 2 world wars ., we are lucky we have a choice ., everyones opinion differs you have to do what you think is right .,

[bluebug in reply to Wendymary]

You are aware rickets was prevalent in the UK until the 1970s?

You clearly have not you heard of families dosing themselves and their kids with cod liver oil plus other syrups, some of which the NHS provided, to ensure people got enough vitamins. There is plenty of historic accounts and film footage of this.

Doctors in the UK - not the rest of Europe - thought vitamin D deficiency had gone away so stopped taking measures against it. They then told everyone to layer on the sun screen regardless of the time of year. There is still a fight about this in the medical profession but most people now ignore those doctors still telling us to layer on the sun screen as soon as we get in the sun.

Oh and British summers are well known for not having enough sun plus pollution - which urban environments still suffer from - blocks UV rays. So 20 minutes a day is going to do SFA when there is no sun or the pollution level is high, which tends to coincide with sunny days. Added in the older and darker you are - that includes having a tan - the more sun you need.

Then you've missed the issue that eating eggs daily was officially regarded as bad for us until about 18 months ago. The medical profession very quietly dropped that one.

History isn't as rosy as you make out. However the situation is not helped by the medical profession giving bad advice due to thinking they have eradicated diseases, then ignoring patients with clear deficiency signs and symptoms in front of their eyes. It shouldn't take a court case for doctors to realise if they aren't diagnosing vitamin D deficiencies and they are caught destroying people's lives due to it they will get taken to task.

[nightingale-56 in reply to bluebug]

bluebug I well remember being dosed with Cod Liver Oil, NHS Orange Juice (urgh) and Virol (Malt) which I loved. We need your timely reminders only wish GPs would/could remember them too.

[shaws in reply to Wendymary]

They didn't have processed food either or refrigerators. If someone had pernicious anaemia they had to eat raw liver before the introduction of injections!

Managing the underlying disease process

"PA has cobalamin-unrelated issues. The most serious is a higher risk of gastric cancer and carcinoids.45 Once the diagnosis of PA is confirmed, I encourage endoscopy to detect early, treatable lesions. If results are negative, routine reendoscopy does not appear worthwhile,45 although it could be offered to young patients. Each patient with PA also needs periodic screening for thyroid disease and iron deficiency because of their high frequencies.23,46 Iron deficiency usually results from the atrophic gastritis, but other explanations are often found"

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

I think few PA will have an endoscopy.

Despite all the visits I made to doctors and investigations and all knew I had P.A. not one thought of testing thyroid gland hormones.

[HLAB35 in reply to Wendymary]

The first world war was a disaster and following on from that there was a flu epidemic that killed more people than the war itself..

Both of my grandfathers fought in the second world war. One of them died of dementia and had a very 'difficult' manner all his life. He was physically clumsy as well. Today we'd probably say he had had a borderline personality. His whole family back then had problems with mental health problems / cancer and obviously back in the 50's and 60's they knew nothing about the vitamins / minerals essential to good neurological health. I am certain, in hindsight that it was b12 deficiency.

We've come a long way in our knowledge, but we haven't reached a plateau yet. The government may drip-feed us with snippets of helpful information, but it's not the whole truth, because they certainly don't want to deal with the controversy.

[Marz in reply to Wendymary]

Wendymary - hubby and I have lived in Crete since 2004 - we live outside most of the year without suncream. After 4 years we both tested insufficient for VitD. We both have Hashimotos - so that too has to be considered ....

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to Wendymary]

You have to not shower/bathe for 48 hours after the sun or you just wash the (almost) vit D away, so it's not that easy. And I think you need 20 mins in a bikini, not just with bare arms

[Marz in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

I think the sun would disappear if I wore a bikini 😊 I do live in a swimsuit from May to September and swim miles ....

I too have read about the showering issue. Who was it that said - being too clean weakens you. Now we know why !

[gabkad in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

Bikini? Yikes. I'd have to erect some serious privacy fencing.

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to gabkad]

I went to one of Phillip Day's talks and I remember him saying something like, "If you strip off all your clothes and lie in the sun, in the 20 mins or so it'll take the police to arrive and arrest you, you'll have made enough vitamin D ...". You don't have to agree with everything he says, but he's very entertaining and has obviously done a lot of research.

[gabkad in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

I used to do that when I lived at the top of a big house and had a private deck. But these days alas, my balcony faces in the wrong direction.

The only option is working at the allotment and getting down and dirty would attract a lot of attention, the sort I wouldn't enjoy too much.

You Brits have some interesting expressions. Today I need to transplant and pot up my brassicas except you people say 'prick out'. LOL! I watch so many gardening YouTube channels from your side, that I'm in danger of not being comprehended over on this side.

Not to mention, do you know if you watch enough gardening programs, your gmail box gets spammed by a Farmers On Line Dating site? The first time it happened, I was checking my mail at work and I showed it to the staff who were falling over laughing.

[humanbean in reply to gabkad]

It wouldn't matter which direction your balcony faced. If Canada is anything like the UK you would have drones to deal with. Privacy in any form is now an outmoded concept, unless you stay indoors, curtains closed, cover up, don't speak, and just sit reading a book. Except of course if you bought the book recently, several people you don't know involved in retail and banking could make an educated guess on what you were reading.

[gabkad in reply to humanbean]

For these sorts of reasons I have no cellphone, no 'air miles' points cards, none of this privacy violating garbage to 'save money'. I don't have GPS in my automobile because I prefer to use my brain.

I don't have curtains. The cats would fix those right fast. It would take some pre planning and concerted effort for someone to bother hoisting a pair of binoculars to watch an almost 60 year old half naked woman watering her plants.

I have always told my daughters that it's better to drive a manual transmission vehicle because there is less likelihood that it will be stolen. Last week one of the kids sent me a link to a news item where a woman was held up at gunpoint by carjackers (right here not far from where I live). Except the doofuses couldn't drive her car. It was a manual transmission. They ran away. While the police were attending this situation, a call came in about another possible carjacking not too far away. Once again the woman involved was driving a manual transmission vehicle and again the gun toting idiots ran away. My kids used to think their mother is a bit of an eccentric. Gradually over time they've realized she may be eccentric but she's also smart. A properly driven manual transmission vehicle uses less fuel. The brakes last longer.

Car insurance rates are also lower on manual transmission vehicles in Canada. Automatic transmission is not real driving. Those things are coma inducing. I hope by the time I'm ready to change up vehicles, manual transmission cars will still be available. I certainly do not want a self driving car. What's the point of that?

[humanbean in reply to gabkad]

As a manual car driver with no sat-nav, just a book of paper maps, and a dumb phone which makes phone calls and text messages and does nothing else, I wanna say "High Five!" and "Luddites United - Hooray!"

[gabkad in reply to humanbean]

We'll be the only ones left with functional frontal cortices. High Five back to you!

[Michelle_Cheatley in reply to Wendymary]

What about pernicious anemia patients. ?

[shaws]

Is it euthanasia by the back door. i.e. not providing essential hormones for our well-being and health? After all they will save a lot on paying pensions/health care and caring for the elderly (or not so elderly) when people cannot function due to lack of essential vitams/minerals and medication.

People who aren't unwell and read the above reports believe them that the sick are costing a lot of money.

They don't seem to know that those who cannot process Vitamin B12 have to have injections. Sublingual B12 may not suit those who have pernicious anaemia.

[JOLLYDOLLY]

I completely agree with the "ping pong" attitude of the medical profession and it is all down to money. Quality of life does not count. We have had reports in the UK about how many people may not realise they have B12 deficiency and there is a strong possibility it can be linked with dementia etc in later life.

I have both B12 deficiency and pernicious anaemia, my dad had it in later life (but it was only diagnosed in the last five years), my sister who also has a thyroid condition, has a iron deficiency. I am wondering now whether my mum who had dementia, could have a undetected deficiency and that is one of the reasons she got dementia. Both parents have passed away in the last year.

I have problems with my back, can hardly walk some days. They say it is my weight, but it isn't, the weight does not help granted, but I had the problem long before due to something happening when I was pregnant nearly 30 years ago. I get very short of breath sometimes because of the pain but they will not even scan me. They just tell me to exercise, which I can to a fashion but I can't walk, so can't burn the calories, hence the weight gain and other "ping pong" attitude to my medication. I am now on my original dose which is what I was on before they started messing me around and I started having problems, but it is never their fault, it is ours.

No one has a clue, unless they have our problems with the thyroid and conditions linked to it.

I think the so called professionals think we are hypochondriacs - they certainly do not get what we all go through that is for sure.

[LindaC in reply to JOLLYDOLLY]

Those 'so-called professionals' simply do not care... they swapped their Hippocratic Oath for a Hypocritic Oath (i.e. take the £$, arrogantly sneer at patients - with their pretence of knowledge - just drag out their suffering because they don't matter... ).

[madge1979 in reply to LindaC]

Haha ... you cynic ...

Luv it !

Mx🌹

[LindaC in reply to madge1979]

Hey madge, wish I couldn't be and we all got great treatment... at least like decades ago xox

[madge1979 in reply to LindaC]

Youre absolutely correct !

In this day and age , sadly , we have to look out for ourselves ..

my doctor when I told him each one of my Graves Symptoms , at different visits , I may add , had no idea what the hell I was talking about ... he did not know the symptoms of Graves' disease ... can you believe

it ! He was 63 years of age and

had studied medicine from leaving school at 18 years ...

very Sad !!

That's why it's important that we take responsibility for our own bodies .. what we out into them and how we care for them ... sad it took me many years and serious illness to realise this !!

Good health to you

Luv mx🌹

[LindaC in reply to madge1979]

And to you too - eek, that's dreadful - 'paid under false pretences' beggars!

Agree entirely - we have little choice it would seem but to look out for ourselves - BUT, wouldn't it be lovely just to go to the GP's and they say x, y, z... here's what you need... be well? Sometimes just tooo tired to deal with it all.

Instead they try to treat us like half-wits, 'as if' we're somehow going down the wrong track. They're very good at patient blaming for their own inadequacies.

Very best, take care and be well xx

[gabkad in reply to madge1979]

True true. This is potentially one benefit of the internet. Except ya gotta know how to tell the difference between the wheat and the chaff. The information that makes sense and the charlatans and snake oil salesmen. Which said are much more common from the USA than elsewhere. Sorry but the whole business of snake oil salesmen has been way more popular in the USA. To wit: the Rockefeller great grandfather was one of them. And a bigamist to boot.

I especially like the 'healers' who grab people by their necks putting pressure on their carotid nodes experience a precipitous fall in blood pressure and topple over backwards and are miraculously healed! One of my friends attended one of these the other day out of curiosity. I watched videos of what this guy does and explained to her why she felt so weird. She resisted falling back with all her might but had all sorts of strange sensations all the while. Makes me wonder why no one delivers a well placed slap across the face of these bogus bullshit artists and then announces loudly 'you are healed'.

[madge1979 in reply to gabkad]

Hahahaha .....write a book Gabkad ... I'll BUY it !!

Luv mx🌹

[gabkad in reply to madge1979]

Got a story for you..... off topic. Hope I don't get in trouble from the moderators.

[Hidden in reply to JOLLYDOLLY]

Everyone going through a diagnosis of dementia now gets their b vitamin levels checked and many are put on supplements as they are deficient but I don't know of any who have their levels checked to see if they are actually absorbing them. As we age the stomach often lacks the intrinsic factor to absorb B12. Add on the fact that doctors give out proton pump inhibitors for heart burn which is known to block the absorption of B12 and you have a recipe for disaster. B12 deficiency is associated with neural damage which includes motor and sensory problems - MS, parknisonian type symptoms, pins and needles, dementia but is also needed for bone formation so osteoporosis. B12 is found in meat, fish and eggs, so if you are vegan or vegetarian you must supplement but if you are older or have stomach issues such as not enough acid which is common as we age or have h pylori bacter then sublingual or injection will be necessary.

Jollydolly if you are having back problems I would ask for a Dexa bone scan to check for osteoporosis

[JOLLYDOLLY in reply to Hidden]

Hi Steenygirl,

I have had a Dexa bone scan done last year to check for osteoporosis and it came back with a good result. The only reason the Endo did it ironically was because she tried to tell me that I was at high risk of osteoporosis because of the T3 medication, they are trying to get us off, not because of the thyroid condition in general. They come out with some BS these so called professionals don't they? But proved her wrong big time lol. But I do believe that the B12, breathlessness is all connected to the pain I am experiencing. But thank you for advising me. I would have asked had it not been done already.

[gabkad in reply to JOLLYDOLLY]

I always challenge my endo with 'if you think I may be getting atrial fibrillations, let's do a 24 hour Holter monitor'......she backs off.

But I think, since I'm turning 60 this year, I'll submit myself to a bone density test. Which I expect will be STELLAR! I've been taking Vitamin D, K2, making sure Vitamin A (retinol), B12 and magnesium are excellent for the past 10 years.

I've managed to fall 18 inches directly onto my right hip with zero consequence except a grazed elbow which hurt like......... In Hungarian we have a saying 'God protects the drunks' and I''d had a little bit too much prior to overbalancing and taking flight. I've also made a decent effort to break my left arm, to no avail, although no alcohol was involved. And a great twist, spin, and fall thanks to Eddie Soprano, mafia cat. He actually felt bad about it and has never pulled a stunt like he did that time since. Hey, if he wants preferred status, then it's not a good idea to do things which may lead to my early demise.

[JOLLYDOLLY in reply to gabkad]

Did make me smile Evidently my risk factor/chances of broken bones or osteoporosis in the next ten years is lest than five percent. So I thought put that in your pipe and smoke that you silly Endo lol. I was asked the same questions about heart attacks etc. Although I had heart failure once, because of severe pneumonia.

I do ask similar questions and in my last consultation, I did ask the question "Do you know what it is like to have a thyroid condition" to which the Endo reluctantly replied "No I don't" - "So don't sit there and tell me how I am feeling" - I then reported her and as a consequence nothing was done, but she does not want to see me or other patients requesting T3 medication ha ha - I wonder why!

At the end of the day, it is down to money money money. Not our quality of life.

I do agree with HLAB35, the so called professionals are not well informed and they with drug companies are making ill advised decisions on medication without consulting the patients and their quality of life. They all cut corners.

My ex Endo, told me that the money spent on the T3 drug in particular, could be spent on more worthy causes and not the minority, it does not work in her opinion and the evidence proves it - how I did not slap her I don't know.... The trouble is the evidence does prove it works, I have been on it for over twelve years now.

[HLAB35]

Back to the situation in Canada though, I'd blame the drugs giants that have been 'branching out' and recruiting international lobbyists. It's pretty clear that you don't have enough well-informed cynical committee members sitting on these panels that make decisions about the nation's health. It's almost as bad as the tobacco companies who marketed their products in third world countries.

[gabkad in reply to HLAB35]

Of course. Why is it that vitamin K2 doses must be no more than 120 mcg in this country, when I can import milligram size from the USA? Or why is the maximum dose for vitamin D3 only 1,000 IU when most office workers need 2,000 IU per day all year round?

When bisphosphonates have been repurposed for the treatment of osteoporosis, why encourage preventive steps in the population? Originally bisphosphonates were used for patients with metastatic cancer in their bones especially vertebrae. Then some bright light determined, hey, we can really make the big bucks and feed it to everyone with osteoporosis.

A 5 year study also showed the rate of cancer for women taking vitamin K2 was much reduced compared to the general population.

Sure, now they say taking Vitamin D doesn't reduce the rate of various diseases including cancer.

Would a gardener think that to grow healthy plants they only need Nitrogen and not potassium and phosphorus? Of course not. They need them all to grow healthy (plus minerals, of course). But here we have doofus scientists taking one vitamin out of context while neglecting the essential partnering vitamins which can also be bottlenecks to good health when not available: vitamin K2, retinol, and B12. Everytime I read reports or studies where 1 vitamin has been shown all on it's' ownsome to not provide a miracle, I dismiss it as 'another waste of research funds'.

[bluebug in reply to gabkad]

Actually where I live in London they recommend 1,000-2,000IU daily. They also refuse to prescribe tablets if your level is over 25nmol/L you have to buy them yourself. Though some but not all of the GPs tell people to take more than the standard dose just to get them into the adequacy level of 75nmol/L. (The quicker someone gets to that level the more likely the GP is going to not have to see that patient for the same problem again.)

There as a friend of mine in a different part of London gets prescribed 800IU tablets though in his case when he was severely deficient he was told to take multiples of those damn 800IU tablets at once so no way would he bothered taking K2 and magnesium supplements as well if he was prescribed them or told to take them.

I told him to get some larger dose supplements himself and he said he couldn't find them so in the end I went to a local pharmacy and brought him some 10,000IU tablets. I was puzzled as my local independent pharmacies sell D3 supplements with dosages from 800IU to 10,000IU but he was right as the couple I looked in his area don't.

So the NHS is a real postcode lottery in every way from what your local NHS trust recommends to your GPs to what independent pharmacies stock.

[gabkad in reply to bluebug]

Over here there's no prescriptions for vitamin D3. In fact, after providing a blood test on provincial healthcare, it was stopped. Now it costs money to find out what a person's vitamin D level is. But what really bugs me is if I have to pay for the blood test, then why can't I go in and fill out the requisition for myself? Why does a doctor have to fill it out? A very screwed up system.

[madge1979]

That's exactly why gabkad , I empowered myself ... and researched what i needed to regain my health from a serious case of Graves' disease ...

I now , thanks to B12 B1 B Complex D3 .... And a few other

Supplements

Am EUTHYROID ! That means normal ... the NHS are coming out with all this stuff too about NOT needing supplements .. but I just proved it to myself ... they're our bodies and it's our choice ... it's all about money ...

But for the price of a good meal out we can stock our cabinet with enough vitamins and minerals to renew our health ... and get back our lives ...

Well done for hylighting their lies.

Luv mx🌹

[gabkad in reply to madge1979]

My childhood physician was an army surgeon. He was actually a great doctor. Gruff, rough, coarse, a boozer, but a brilliant mind with excellent surgical skills. He made sure my parents gave my brother and I vitamins because according to him, the vegetables have nothing left in them once they've been in transit. And that was in the late 50 and during the 60s.

The other physician who was great, was also trained over there in Hungary and he was a super diagnostician. He looked at a patient. He made the patient sit across from his messy desk and a 20 minute conversation occurred before he moved on to the examination room. So he KNEW his patients.

Currently, the doctors are busy looking at the computer monitor. I'm not sure they'd notice if you had a worm growing out of the middle of your forehead. They don't watch how you walk, how you sit, your posture, your ability to speak or remember things, or anything at all. They are also not interested.

Those two other guys loved human beings. Sadly the second one developed dementia and was found frozen several kilometers from home after he'd wandered off. The first one died of a stroke in the middle of the night. Such uneloquent deaths for men who really made a huge difference in the lives of their patients that those who were privileged to have been their patients still stop to tell stories and reminisce. Because, and this is also what is missing these days: they were real characters!

[madge1979]

Your words made me feel very tearful there .. Gabkad happy and sad .. I too had two family doctors .. how lucky was I .. they came to my home for appointments as i lived a number of miles from most patients ... they were gentlemen

And yes .. one liked his alcohol

Like yours ..

but they were great guys , good decent men , who had a vocation in life .. maybe they would not have known much about my Thyroid ... but they would have damn well found out .. I just know it !

My uncle once , in Ireland in the 30s became very ill .. the doctor was called out ! The Dr said he knew that my uncle had a tropical disease ( as he worked in the docks , unloading cargo from exotic countries ) but he didn't know which one .. he trailed the universities until he found a specialist in tropical diseases ...

He was diagnosed properly and

That doctors name is pure gold because if his doggedness ..bravery and humanity ... God bless him !

They just don't make them like that anymore Gabkad ... to our loss alas ..

luv m x🌹

[silverfox7]

I am about to have an interesting conversation with my GP. I did have osteopenia but got in the normal range by supplementing. However calcium shot up plus Adcal started to give gut problems plus has soyvin it so I told GP I was stopping and looking for an alternative. Struggle a few months but then try my local pharmacy to find yet again Vit D has added things to it so asked the pharmacist about a lesser dose of the booster dose I'd been started on. He did sell itvyo me but said to get itvsdded to prescription which GP did but then I learnt about K2 etc so calcium brilliant but I was now back in the osteopenia but hey it doesn't matter as I'm in keeping with others in my age bracket! What a stupid criteria to be considered ok by!

[gabkad in reply to silverfox7]

I think it's as Marz says 'you are not what you eat, you are what you absorb'. I wonder if some of the problem with bones has to do with not merely dietary inadequacy but absorption. And we know that hypos don't exactly digest well.

One of the hypo women in my 'local coterie of hypos' had undiagnosed coeliac for many many years. She broke her wrist last year and the fracture clinic scheduled her for bone density testing. She had osteomalacia because of poor absorption due to the coeliac. Retesting after a year of zero gluten showed that her bones are getting stronger. She'd had her thyroid removed 3 years ago due to 'cancer'. So undiagnosed coeliac .... thyroid cancer.... what else? She was diagnosed coeliac after seeing my endo who sent her to the GI specialist and a biopsy was done. This woman's life has turned around completely. She wasn't even absorbing the thyroxine! It was all so weird because her diet was always excellent except of course it didn't matter because of the coeliac. And her previous doctors kept telling her to cut back on fruit and veg to control the daily diarrhoea! Talk about stupid and negligent.

[dang]

What province are you in? I used to live in Ontario and was shocked to find out that I never had my vit D tested there. OHIP doesn't pay for it, and patients are required to pay $25 out of pocket to do it, but no physician ever recommended it to me. I grew up in Ontario which meant that my entire life they never checked once. The second I moved to Germany they found out I was incredibly deficient...

[gabkad in reply to dang]

Toronto. When OHIP paid for it, the number of tests done was huge. What the M.D.s failed to tell their patients is that vitamin D is fat soluble and taking it with a morning cup of coffee doesn't work. Repeat testing six months after low dose Vitamin D ingestion resulted in no change in blood levels so the government decided to stop paying for the test. Isn't that brilliant?

Cost at labs varies between $25 and $50. Cost if done in hospital is zero.

It's the same with vitamin B12. They've taken it off the tickable tests on lab requisitions. Physicians have to enter it as a separate item. Anyway, what difference does it make? Bottom of lab ranges vary from 130 to 200. If a patient has a blood level of 133 they are considered to be fine and dandy.

[madge1979 in reply to gabkad]

Gggrrrhh ... 🙀

Happy Easter ....

mx🌹

[dang in reply to gabkad]

I also lived in Toronto. Have had many problems with OHIP, I could never get down to the root of my problems there. Each doctor just telling me I have IBS without ever conducting tests.

I once asked a doctor to test my heart because I was worried about a condition that could have been passed down from my grandfather. He flat out denied me, saying you're young, he's old, don't compare yourself, if you had a condition it would have been caught by now and didn't even bother to listen to my heart beat.

First doctor I saw in Germany years later checked my heart during a checkup, immediately said you've got some arrhythmia. Next thing I know I spent the next months going through every heart test known to man and receiving 3 diagnoses, same doctor found my Hashimoto's. He also noticed my stomach problems (which I told at least 20 doctors in Toronto, none of which bothered to send me for testing), ended up finding out about my colitis and duodenitis along with my Histamine intolerance due to low DAO enzyme.

In my opinion these are precursors to my Hashimoto's, and the doctors in Toronto basically did me in by constantly refusing to test me and calling me crazy, telling me I've got to be healthy cuz I'm young and not over weight...

Toronto... 😓