adrenal and thyroid

hi guys ive been ill for a 3 or 4 yrs now to cut a very long story short after lot of research i made my own diagnosis and i book an appointment to see doc p. at first glance he said he couldnt see any problems with the thyroid or adrenals but said my symptoms where looking like it was so we had the adrenal and thyroid tested and weeks later it showed i had high cortisol and low t3 a lowish t4

sample 1 48.93 h ref range 7.45-32.56

sample 2 17.62 h ref range 2.76-11.31

sample 3 11.50 h ref range 1.38-7.45

sample 4 3.00 normal ref range 0.83-3.86

sum of cortisol 81.1

thyroid

urine t3 was 553 ref range was 800-2500

urine t4 was 1130 ref range was 550-3,160

t3 to t4 ratio 0.49 range 0.50-2.00

while i was waiting for my armour i started getting missed heart beats which really freaked me out and ive had them daily for 5 months also my blood pressure has gone low im thinking my the adrnals have gone from high cortisol to the next stage anyway i got my armour started it and i just couldnt take it so i stopped i waited a month then i tried it again and same thing happened felt terrible on it i know my adrenals are bad cause of my temps as there fluctuating al over the place so now i had another fone convo with doc p and he said to take nutri adrenal im up to 2 tablets morning and 1 and 1 3 after each tablet and im alos taking vit c b5 bvitamins ect so wot i wanted to know when is it a good idea to start bk on the armour as i think my body need its desperately but i just dont wana stress my adrenals any more also im thinking that cause ive been low t3 for a while that maybe when i start taking it im going to get detox symptoms the reason i think thos is cause i have bad chemical sensitivity and i even get emf sensitivity my eyes go red if i sit by a pc ect and same gos if i have the gas on ect i think this is all caused by my low thyroid cause its slowed my body down a lot any suggestions guys ??

also has any1 else got and sensitivity??

my test results show low t3 and also bottom range low t4 do u think this is a thyroid problem or sumthink else? thanks mark

43 Replies

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  • Sorry, I did not understand if you have been diagnosed with hypothyroidism (low thyroid function) or not?

    Did you do your 24 h urine testing in Belgium? I am asking because I recognise the reference ranges.

    According to my doctor (a Hertoghe doctor), T3 in urine should be 2000, and T4 2500. So your levels are really low.

    Have you measured FT3 and FT4 in blood as well? If so, could you please post those lab results here?

    Also, I assume you had labs before going on Armour?

  • well i went to see the well know doctor p. im the uk and the test was done at genova labs in the uk and was a 24 hour urine test. i was diagnosed by doctor p as having hypothyroidism and no i havnt had any ft3 blood done at all the only blooed ive had was at the gp a while ago but the tsh was normal.

  • Getting the TSH result and FT4 from the doc will help.

    It looks like it can be low thyroid / high cortisol. When thyroid is low the body will compensate and elevate cortisol. Eventually this process stops and cortisol becomes low.

    BUT why are you taking NTH and not starting on T4. T4 should always be trialled first, plus it is far easier on the adrenals when they are stressed. Using T3 (in the NTH) is a bigger stressor.

    So use T4 instead and see how this works out. Then you would add in the synthetic T3 to try and improve things. This situation will probably not correct itself over a few months, more likely it will take a year before you feel better, but hopefully you will see some positive improvements in that time.

    Your adrenal curve is a good shape (declining all the way to bedtime), but it is high. It is not so high at bedtime, so this is good as well. Do you use any steroid meds at all ?

    The future for you is trial and error with your thyroid hormones. Start on a low dose and gradually build up. What NTH dose are you on now and how long have you been on it. This can also present problems if you go up too fast, or too high initially.

  • Really? Choose synthetics over ndt? Are you absolutely sure about this Marsaday?

    Mark, the tsh may never give you a true reflection of your thyroid hormone status...... would check this one out.... mcgill.ca/channels/news/new...

    g.

  • yh thats an interesting artical thanks for that. i beleave my cause to be down to mercury as my problems started not long after having 3 filling took out my mouth.

  • hope you went to a specialist when you had your fillings removed

  • wot happend was i found out about how bad amalgams was so went to a mercury free dentist to have them removed they used a separate oxygen supply but i couldn't breath through the tube in my nose so i ended up breathing through my mouth at the time. i didnt know how much vapors ect would come of the filling or how dangerous it was anyway not long after that i developed redeyes and chemical sensitivity to every think and also ems sensitivity

  • Has a metal toxicity test been carried out? Have you chelated?

  • yh i had a hair test done at doctors data and have been following andy cutlers protocol ive been doing it for a year so far

  • Genova Diagnostics do a toxic element clearance profile test using urine but it does have to be done via a practitioner. Mercury is one of 19 metals tested.

    I've heard of Andy Cutler's protocol, presumably you started this after having the amalgams removed?

  • not straight away no it was 3 yrs later when i realized i might have a mercury problem i done 2 hair tests then i went to a horlistic natura path who used his bioresonece machine to see if i had a heavy metal problem and it said i did so got andy book and went from there really i worked out my throid problem with symptoms and body temp

  • Synthetics are miles better than NTH. Many people who use NTH only used T4 before moving over. They never tried T4/T3. How can the two be compared. They can't.

    I have tried everything and NTH was not any different to T4 actually. It made me well, but not 100%. This issue was not down to a thyroid hormone problem, but rather a balance between the thyroid and adrenals. I have now got on top of this and everything is happy on T4 / T3 (and only a little T3 as well). Timings of the thyroid can be just as important as using T3.

    Plus you have the NHS who is anti NTH and it is always better to try and work inside the system if you can. The cheapest option for patients is to get the T4 on the NHS and then buy their own T3 supplies.

    T4/T3 also allows the patient to create their own ratios. Some may want larger amounts of T3 and less T4 and vice versa.

  • Each to his own opinion... Thats why we have a forum so we can discuss the merits of each method of treatment.

    Having spent over 20 years on t4 and/or t3 and 5 years self treating with NDT, i can confirm that i survive well on t4/t3 combination, which is prescribed by the nhs, but i much prefer the even keel of the Ndt, which i buy for myself.

    g

  • Good to hear you are doing well.

  • "Synthetics are miles better than NTH"

    It's impossible to make such a generalised statement.

    I would go so far as to say that generalised statements really get my back up.

    As a patient group, we are hit with a brick wall of generalised statements everyday; "we only look at TSH - that's the best indication; we only prescribe levo - there's no need for anything else; you're fat because you eat too much and don't exercise enough; you're depressed..."

    So please, only speak for yourself and from your own experiences and try not to sound so well, dismissive.

    Ta.

  • Synthetics are better for me than NTH. And miles better too. There, i have made another statement about my own experience.

    I notice from your posts you are doing badly on T4 only, but have moved over to NTH. This is what most people seem to do, but they never try T3 with their T4 first. It is a crazy situation.

    Many people report problems with taking NTH as they do with T4 only AND T4/T3. The problem here is not the hormone of choice, but rather the other areas going wrong in the body.

    Some people also find life is much better on NTH after using T4, but then so do lots of people who add in T3 to the T4.

    I will be following your posts with interest to see if NTH is the answer for you. I hope it is, but i feel it is a shame you have not tried to use T3 first. What if that makes you feel fully well ? You would save a lot of money and possibly get treatment under the NHS still (or semi treatment if you take the T4 and buy the T3).

  • "Synthetics are better for me than NTH. And miles better too."

    Can you back that statement up in regards to the "...and miles better too"?

    "Some people also find life is much better on NTH after using T4, but then so do lots of people who add in T3 to the T4."

    Listen,if you're going to watch my posts with interest, we'll get on a lot better if more statements like the above one is written because you make some decent points. ;0)

    When it comes to NDT/t3 t4 combo, I'm all for "whatever works for the individual" but I wanted to try NDT first - would've been hard to change my mind on that one.

    H

    P.S. I also think to some degree you're missing the point which is: that for a lot of people, for the first time in a long, they have autonomy and choice over their treatment.

  • Marsaday, your second statement is much better, that you personally feel miles better on T4+T3. That doesn't mean it's the better treatment. The largest number of people do well on T4. But on this forum there are many people who don't.

    Personally, I feel so much better on NDT that I would prefer to be on a low dose of NDT so that my TSH is over 100 than on an 'optimal' dose of either T4 or T4+T3. But that doesn't mean everyone will feel that way.

    There is absolutely no reason to be rude. Those who suit different thyroid replacements aren't our enemies!

  • cant take t4 as my gr dont think i have a problem with thyroid and hasnt got a clue about anythink else thats why i worked this out on my own and went to see doc p.im not currently taking any thyroid supplement as im to scared to start again made me very moody and felt terrible when on it.oh no i dont take any steriods at all sum times i think maybe the high cortisol is due to the reactions im having with the sensitivitys im having cause when i react to emf or chemicals of any form my eyes go really red like they would with a hayfever responce so i think im releasing alot of histamine into my blood and mayb that wots cause this high cortisol i dont know.

  • Suppose you have worked your way through the antihistamines? Some are better than others.....

    g x

  • If you got NTH then you can buy T4 as well.

    The elevated cortisol is related to an inflam issue then best get on top of that. It is tough to work out what does what.

    It would be good to see where the FT4 and TSH number is though.

  • yh i think i might get that done can i go to the gp for that test?

  • And, while you're at it, get your vit D, vit B12, folate and ferritin tested. Your nutrients need to be optimal for your body to be able to use the thyroid hormone you're giving it.

  • is the 24 hours urine test the best way to look at thyorid hormons and why does doc p use it ??

  • It is a good way, but the blood tests are useful too. I think you may have had the GP do the blood tests already. Can you just ask him for the results ?

  • ive not had it done at the gps for over 2 yrs the last time i had bloods done was in a n e which i went to worried about these heart missed beats im having they said every think was in normal range could have done with them on paper really

  • my gps hopeless ive done all the work myself just yrs of research. i went into my gps office after my blood and she said i was ok so i asked how am i ok if ive got all these sensitivitys to chemicals like gas diesel and emfs ect her response was (well ill have a think about it for a few weeks and ill get back in touch) needless to say i never heard back from them.i was going to go up there and have a winge but i just thought stuff it i dont need your help!! as far as im concerned them gps are just put there to right prescriptions for big pharma and to make them alot of money there not there to help people but saying that i think alot gps are caring the problem is there not allowed to be like that cause of the crappy training sorry rant over lol thank mark

  • Agree with what you say. If you want a GP to take notice and do as you say all you have to do is write a letter to them. In it you would put everything you would say in a verbal meeting with them. This way it is on record and they know there is some evidence in the background watching over their actions. You need to ask for it to be placed in your medical records.

    It would go like this:

    I experience this symptom and that and this part of the body is not doing so well. I have a feeling this may be responsible, where can i get further help with these issues ? Are there some specific tests i can get?

    Apparently people have done this and the reaction is amazing.

  • thanks i might just try that lol saying that im moving to spain in a few weeks ive just come back from 3 month stay there to test it out and we love it so just come bk to sell the house ect i felt the best i felt in long time out there with that nice climate and loads of sunbaths for the vit d lol thankx mark

  • Missing heart beat can be due to low thyroid. Also low iron can be an issue. IT sounds like you need a full blood test to see state of thyroid (inc antibodies), iron panel, B12, Vitamin D. If the NHS won't do this for you Blue Horizon blood testing operates all over the UK and do some good panels all in for £120-150 approx, plus have offers all the time.

    Sounds like you need to do some more investigation before you just jump on the thyroid hormones. I do think you will need them however.

  • ok thanks for your help i appreciate it ill have a look into gettin them done im moving bk to spain soon so il proberly have to wait til i get there thanks mark.

  • easy enough to get blood tests done, you can get a full. Thyroid profile for less than £100 which gives you tsh, free t4, free t3 and antibodies.... Have a look on the website attached to this forum..... thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testin...

    You deal direct with the lab yourself

    Xx

  • I had missing heart beats(ectopic beats)for the 18 years I was on T4.I don't think my body was converting the T4 into T3 very well, & this got worse over the years.I became more & more hypo over the years,despite my dose of 125mcgs thyroxine daily.The GPs always said"everything is normal according to blood tests"I think this has profoundly compromised my adrenals,leaving me with major fatigue issues & an inability to cope with stress or excitement.

    The ectopic beats stopped when I added T3 & very slowly reduced T4 to zero,as did the other hypo symptoms.

    Could it be the T4 in NDT that was causing the ectopic beats,Mark?

    I have been on T3-only since August.I intend to try re-introducing T4 later.In the meantime,I am using Paul Robinson's protocol in his book "The CT3M Handbook"to heal my adrenals.

    I did not have any improvement from Nutri-Adrenals,though I took them for months.

    I have begun supplementing with adrenal supporting adaptogens as well(rhodiola,siberian ginseng,Schizandra & holy basil)to maximise my ability to utilize T4 when I try adding some T4 back in,either with NDT or thyroxine.

    I may end up on T3 only for life

  • hi naomi im sorry to hear you have been so ill i understand how it feels. i myself cant handle any stress or excitement at times thats defo adrenals problems at this moment in time im not on any throid meds ive got armour ready to go but at this point im not rushing into it again as im tryin to get my temp regulation stable when i can see the adrnals are funtioning better i think ill add the thyroid bk into the mix im just a bit scared cause i felt terrible the last few time i tried it i think by looking at them test results its a thyroid problem and now a conversion problem??? im not doctor so im not to sure on this one.alos i got a feeling them missed could be adrenal connected but im not sure ill only know w=once i start that thyriod again and get that t3 into me mark.

  • Mark,remember,NDT has T4 in it.If you don't feel well on it after you think your adrenals are sorted,you may need to consider T3-only.

    I am hugely improved on T3,but after becoming so unwell over a long period of time,I know I have to give it time.

    I have completely altered my lifestyle to reduce stress as much as possible.I am very grateful I do not need to work,now I am 66.

    I practise meditation & yoga,as they reduce cortisol & moderate stress.

    If I overdo it physically or through stress,it completely fells me & it takes me days & days to recover from the crushing fatigue.

    I am getting well thanks to this amazing community.

    I wish you all the best & thank you for your kind words.

  • Mark, how are you tracking your temperatures? Are you doing them fthree or four times a day and plotting the average? Its a brilliant tool to use, but sadly, although i harp on about it, i donT think many people do it.... i wrote a post about it some time ago....

    HereS the link.... healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

    g

  • yh thats wot ive been doin the last 4 days its better to do it this way instead of guessing. my temps where all over the place like from sum times 34.6 all the way to 36.6 so the adrenals are stressed really bad from wot im seeing so far they have stabilized alot better ill give it a few more days then if not more stable ill raise again

    heres my temps for the last few days

    dreanal temp graph new

    18/02/2016

    0830 35.9 1145 36.3 1400 36.3 1700 36.1 average 36.1

    19/02/2016

    0800 36.1 11am 35.9 1400 36.4 1700 35.8 average 36.05

    20/02/2016

    0800 36.3 11am 36.2 1400 36.3 1700 36.3 average 36.2

    21/02/2016

    0800 35.9 11am

    there looking ok so far so fingers crossed lol thanx mark

  • Hi galathea, I have just starting to take my temperature in the mornings as I am feeling rubbish again. They have mostly been 35.5, this morning it was 34, just read your link about testing 3 times a day, think I will try that for a few days. Thanks.

  • drrind.com/therapies/metabo... look this site its reallly good for temp plotting ect

  • Thank you, will have a look.

  • And of course,taking good levels of iron,D3 with K,B12 daily,along with vit C,omega 3,lysine,B1,B2,folate,B6,selenium,zinc,.....

  • I don't know if you are aware of this, but you don't need a doctor to do blood tests for you if you are prepared to pay. One of the biggest stumbling blocks for people is getting someone to take blood. But there are some very good finger prick tests which avoid the problem.

    thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testin...

    Follow the links on the above page. There are ways of getting discounts on some types of testing.

    On this page : homebloodtests.co.uk/

    look down the left hand side and click on the blue badge saying Thyroid Check Plus Ten. It's a very good selection of tests that can be done by ordering a finger prick kit which must be returned by post.

    The test that is missing is the Vitamin D test which can be done separately as another finger prick test from one of these sites :

    vitamindtest.org.uk/

    betteryou.com/vitamin-d-tes...

  • Mark,

    I agree with your line of thought and am pleased you are researching thoroughly.

    I was medicated on Levo with extremely compromised adrenals and after adding glandular support at a later date became even more ill.

    The medical professional do not understand the importance or synergy of the thyroid and adrenals glands. EVERY (credible ) book I read states the adrenals must be strong/healthy enough to be able to tolerate thyroid meds or else MUST be treated first.

    As you are thinking of medicating NDT this should be better tolerated long term but it will be a fine balance to starting when your body can receive it well enough to be beneficial to the adrenals.

    Glandulars are excellent if you can tolerate them and will stand you in good stead.

    Dr P is such a wonderful man but obviously limited in after care so it is important you keep educating yourself further in order to manage your own health.

    Good reads are Your Thyroid and How To Keep It Healthy - Dr P

    Why Do I still have Thyroid Symptoms - De Datis Kharrazian

    Stop The Thyroid Madness - Janie A Bowthorpe. ( this book loves NDT. )

    Have you been tested for thyroid antibodies TPOAb and TGAb?

    If you have Hashimotos STTM states it is imperative to reduce antibody levels in order for your body to accept NDT. (Strangely synthetic meds seem to accommodate high thyroid antibodies better although can obviously cause destruction else where.)

    Also an iron deficiency can cause an intolerance to NDT or any thyroid meds.

    Your adrenals should become stronger once you are thyroid medicated and can be further supported by (possibly) removing any stresses, adopting a healthy life style and keeping iron levels and all other nutrients at optimal levels (Vit B12, Vit D , folate & also Vit E, zinc,, etc.) Supplementing fish oils will provide omega 3 and help reduce inflammation.

    If you have gut issues (IBS, candida,etc) these must be addressed for good nutrient absorption to take place. Also some thyroid hormones are converted from T4-T3 in the gut..

    I had my mercury removed last autumn and am still chelating. It is vital you chelate until toxic metals levels are low. This can take months or even years for some !

    I also experienced heart jumps, bangs and palpitations until I found thyroid meds that suited last summer.

    When you start NDT again just add slowly and on low doses. You shouldn't get a negative reaction from your low T3 result because your body is needing additional T3.

    People like myself get a negative reaction through medicating incorrect hormone that is unusable in the body and converts to RT3 and adding T3 can cause major reactions. Keep trying to add NDT but just low & slow.

    (If your body is so intolerant (ie high TPOAb's prevent NDT being accepted) you could start with synthetic T4 & T3 and switch over to NDT in a years time when adrenals are stronger & antibodies reduced.

    There are meds for everyone. It is just a case of finding which one suits.

    Flower

    Private labs testing

    thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testin...

    This following link explains the importance of vitamins and where they may be obtained. This forum is supported by the charity ThyroidUK. You do not have to join the charity to benefit from this forum but by doing so you will be supporting the charity and also entitled to various discounts when buying supplements, as detailed in the link below.

    thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/treatm...

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………........................

    Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional and this information is not intended to be a substitute for medical guidance from your own doctor. Please check with your personal physician before applying any of these suggestions.

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