Oh the confusion as we go along...

[storm]

Being in the Hashi situ leads to lots of trying to research, as you know. Along the way your understanding changes...and back and forth and confusion...well....

I am a few years down the line, still fighting... and I suddenly get lost on some things. Maybe some of you can clarify - IF you are pretty convinced which is right:

1) I first thought we need as much T4, as high in range as possible, that is converted to T3, which also needs to be as high in range as possible.

So when that T4 is converted to T3, you need to keep the T4 maintained at said higher level and that is the straight forward crux of it all.

2) I then started to read that whilst T4 needs to be as high as possible, the importance was as much as possible converted to T3 as that is the usable form.

OK SO WHERE IS THE CONFUSION.....

Whilst thinking to self that if the body isn't making enough T4, that if you somehow converted that lesser T4 to T3, that you are in doo doo... as the body cant replace that (used - converted) T4 as fast as it is struggling.

BUT THEN.... crept in the thought that some of the converted T3 goes back round to be converted back to some T4 - OMG!!!

So then (and this may sound daft) I started understanding that because the T3 may be a little low, the T4 making slows... HUH?!! (All technical processes, depending on cause)...

I've thought the TSH raises to tell the T4 (layman's version NOT correct version) to make some more.....and then later read the TSH raises because it is the T3 that isn't high enough.... oh 'eck!!

(we wont go into RT3 lol)...

These are the ways a lot of info on the web is read - and contradicts other info etc, so there I am - unable to take T4 but also not wanting to take anything really (ok, I know....mega risk) and as I said it's been a rocky old road BUT I AM SO SENSITIVE TO MEDS, body often rejects, so NO I AM NOT BEING SILLY - I am DUBIOUS that if certain meds make ill.... why would I think others wouldn't cause bad reactions? I'm one in a million...LOL... anyway I am going down the whole route here of what to try and what I have tried and what I can't have (or GP wont prescribe) or I wont take... etc... I assure you I am not daft!!

So all the time I have to think deep to self... such as "If I use up the small amount of T4, convert to T3 and that is used fast...then BOOM... I've had it..

I had a private test for Iodine and it showed as deficient - which MIGHT have been the reason T4 was lower....

EXCEPT there is that controversy about don't take Iodine if Hashi - aaarghhhh....but anyway I was using iodised salt and not masses, but also trying to eat some foods with iodine in.. well may be had it in.. aside modern farming or processing or GM etc

FED UP by now, of course as NO GP would help with any of this...

MY LATEST OWN OPINION... is of course.. the body has needs and if you don't put in what it needs, it cant magic it out of thin air - this leads to me realising for years, we have been conditioned or brainwashed by GPs - as everyone knows they DONT have the cure - OR they do and are keeping quiet - or otherwise there are various causes - but anyway ...

If any of you have read the same that if you get T3 in line, the T4 may start to rise, because it was lowered due to lack of T3 - I would be interested in this.

Otherwise yes of course we need both...and YES I KNOW some people are only on T3 or may have had thyroid removed etc etc... that isn't what I am getting at... I am getting at the specific process......

Also - re Genova own testing - I didn't do the loading Iodine test, I did the urine iodine, T3 T4 test - which was mighty crazy as said T4 and T3 (cellular) in range (not high but mid) and I was way out with TSH and T4 when GPs last tested (Ft3 was low in range but never out bar maybe once)....

I am trying to help self - but it is no good me going along with the theory I am lacking in iodine - IF say... the test might vary due to output - OR SAY the thyroid was holding on to some iodine, hence why it didn't all show in the water... LOL

Then why would the thyroid hold on to iodine you say - maybe as I read it cant process it OR it holds it back, due to other malfunctions.. obviously!

You can see my view was to take what the body needed to make T4, then as long as conversion was ok, enough T3 would be made and so on........

Now I have to decide if I need to work on better conversion in order to shift the T4 manufacturing onward and upward IF it is the T3 level that determines....?

Does this make sense to you? (I know it is complete everything that needs to work) but is it the straight forward version OR is it the recycling?

[Heloise]

Maybe understanding what Deiodinases nahypothyroidism.org/deiodi... do will help. I don't believe T3 can ever convert to T4.

[storm in reply to Heloise]

Hi Heloise

I know, it sounds a bit back to front and I cant find where I read it now, but likely on some scientific based info as I tend to avoid too much guesswork.

It threw me a bit - as I said, all this time thinking T4 to T3 conversion and maybe some T3 gets used around the system - but then I have come across in the past... bits about the T4 manufacture slowing down if body under certain stress or for some reason needs to partially shut down.

You gather I am still thinking not making the T4 to high enough level and always thought the TSH was to nudge T4 manufacture.........

But then whatever article I read more recently said if T3 low, that triggers higher TSH.

GPs used to say to me, when I was concentrated under them, that I had a weird T3 score - it was pretty much always in range Vs the T4 bottom end, I never did get out of the GP what they meant when they said weird T3, I suppose they couldn't believe it was OK if T4 wasn't.

NOW - you could say I was converting well - except I couldn't convert Levo T4 so that doesn't tie in. They didn't test RT3 to see if the Levo was causing that, but I got much more ill on Levo, various brands switched too.

So my present thing (and we know wont please many) ... I have for some time say 1.5 - 2 years been off Levo and have so far made SOME diet changes and felt better than on Levo... (people reading - do NOT all try this, it is never recommended to come off Levo - but I was seriously ill on it)!!

No, I couldn't see how one atom less (T3) could convert back to four atoms (T4) as that would seem daft as it would then have one atom added only to be removed again - UNLESS it is used as T3, then messaged / sent back to the factory (gland) and part used - gawd knows!

That was what I was saying though whilst trying to read to self help, there is a lot of confusion, it just started a very tired thought in head...obvs too brainfogged to think clear enough.

I was just thinking all the time been keeping in mind try to keep what the body CAN manufacture in T4 coming, for as long as it can.... and mindful that whilst need T3 at decent level - there is the thing about DONT GO MAD - as in DONT OVERDO THINGS...exercise etc, using up too much energy like when have a burst of it (that's NEVER normal though, just odd times feel like jigging about). Because then you envisage using all the T3 FASTER but NOT making T4 fast enough to replace, so the NEW theory was work more on conversion which would kickstart the T4 to manufacture at faster rate....

I am sure many will think I am mad - but there is a chance someone has read the same thing or similar.

On my own protocols, I first took a single ACE with selenium, thinking I need selenium (at start of diagnosed illness) and that ONE tablet made me go very strange - vision went blurry, as if eyes popping out and felt I was going to collapse or heart attack etc (hard to explain) so later on, I figured even that ONE first tablet acted like that, MAYBE because in fact I was lacking in iodine - OR it triggered HYPER type symptoms due to shocking the system - but I was too scared to try tablet again.

After some time of taking multivits (again early days, tight budget) without selenium - I started having a few brazil nuts, which I could do for say two or three days before again getting the weird eye popping and blurry vision!

I tested much later to find lacking in iodine, according to private tests -

SO if you picture a very delicate system, I am saying that what you aim to do to get the right nutrients for the manufacture process is SO DELICATE that it goes wrong at the slightest imbalance, then I am trying to better work out if we are ALL RIGHT that it is the T4 conversion to T3 that causes TSH to rise if lacking in T4 - OR if when the T3 drops, that triggers TSH to rise - NOT as daft as it sounds, as honestly it IS out there... if only I could find again, but cant yet. My browsing history is wiped daily.

This also relates to other causes such as estrogen dominance or stress and cortisol interfering with the manufacture - also relates to liver detox of estrogen which if it cant, affects T3 conversion / manufacture ... and then what...? Somehow makes T4 halt manufacture.

I need to hunt more on these topics, but I'm hoping someone will know where I am coming from.

[Hidden]

Hello storm,

T4 , a PROHORMONE is produced almost exclusively by the thyroid gland and once inside various tissues and organs (liver, kidneys, brain, etc) it is converted into T3, the biologically active hormone. Therefore, T3 can not raise T4 levels directly but may encourage good health within the whole body, so encouraging synergy of the endocrine system and allowing better production of T4.

With regard to your questions, it depends on thyroid problems, other health conditions, and if & what thyroid hormone replacement(s) are medicated.

TSH levels vary for differing reasons in different people. The endocrine system is immensely complicated and that is why you find contradicting information.

Factors such as high/low cortisol and gut issues like candida & H. Pylori (amongst many others) will disrupt hormone balances not only interfering with the production of T4 but also the conversion into T3 (and RT3 because we need so much to balance), all progressive unless addressed.

Members who medicate Levothyoxine generally say they function better with a high T4 & T3 (but within range) and a TSH of around 1.0 or below. However, I am presently functioning well on a much lower levels of T4 & T3 (although my TSH is still suppressed.)

If you are iodine deficient you may not be able to make adequate thyroid hormones and encourage a goitre. You could also encourage ovarian cysts. If you have low thyroid hormones levels, they needs replacing.

You are not one in a million being intolerant of thyroid meds as I was, and many other members who have experienced troubles (hence the forum). It is now essential to find why meds aren't working for you.

In my case it was detoxification issues and a build up of unused medicated thyroid hormones. I would suggest you look at a congested liver that can't cope and a possible build up of RT3.

Since going completely gluten free and taking a huge cocktail of sups (tailored to my individual major detoxification issues), my (reduced) thyroid hormones appear to be working well and stamina is rebuilding (slowly.)

I believe you can supplement iodine with Hashimotos if certain strict protocols are adhered to and you are monitored by a health professional. There are a lot of posts concerning this controversial issue.

I can't comment on not medicating as feel I would die without mine ! ! ... and hope you find your answers and feel better soon.

Flower

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….....................

Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional and this information is not intended to be a substitute for medical guidance from your own doctor. Please check with your personal physician before applying any of these suggestions.

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….....................

[SAMBS in reply to Hidden]

Flower I love your use of the word "synergie" - that is exactly the word used in a natural product I am now taking, having had a very long conversation with my pharmacist here. He understands more than my doctor, about the different things going on with my health! As you know I am against just looking online and buying 'any old thing' 1) usually because it's difficult to check out the people recommending and selling some of the products.

2) there are some dodgy people out there in the big WORLD WIDE WEB, like spiders catching their prey! I know thT might sound melodramatic , but there nothing wrong thinking in outside the box, especially when you hear some of the horror stories of young people who have died through buying pills (uppers/downers) online.

I remember an admin (?) on here replying when I said that once before, "how many people do you hear of dying through buying thyroid pills online! Well of course we don't - but I also ask How many people do we hear of Where a Death Certificate states Thyroid, hashimotos or the hyper autoimmune condition - or taking Levo - same answer WE also DONT! They die of one or more of the many other health problems that involve the endocrine system......... (........ that probably/possibly........) will have been preventable.

You also say above, we are overmedicated, be it thyroxin or other meds. Depending on on which med it is, the organ/s affected could -alternatively be the one causing the Autoimmune effects, not necessarily the Thyroid. The problem is that more women worldwide have a Thyroid condition, than men. It's women who have/need oestrogen, have periods, give birth and go through the menopause. Men have their own individual health conditions that affect women less. Drink, smoking, leisure drugs affect both sexes, who also have sudden brain haemorrhages, but both sexes can also have liver problems caused by over medication.

unnecessary over medication wrecks the liver, and doesn't help the brain either!

I'm convinced thats why I have PBC, other causes having been ruled out! Because some of the effects of my brain injury had reduced markedly, without medication, except the blood thinner. Those effects started happening again (brain fog Confusion [anxiety for very short time only] because that was when I started looking at the side effects of the drugs my own doctor was giving me, not connected with my Thyroid. Because I was being proactive I stopped being anxious.

I am even now, several months later thinking that yes , for an initial diagnosis of a Thyroid problem, TSH blood testing IS the initial step To take. Looking at the result and range. If not a good result, then a follow up blood test for the Free T 3, T4, Vit B12, Ferritin and Folate.

That's the place to start in my book and I now understand why the doctors only go with the TSH, sadly all the time only, unless we push, push, push because they are NOT as clued up as this Website and the admins are.

However I also think that when it comes to starting to take Thyroxin that TUK also place strong and more emphasis on HOW it should be taken.

NOT AT ALL before a blood test! ...........Must be done with an empty stomach.So try and make an early morning appt. Or leave 4-6 hours between meals?

ALWAYS READ ALL OF MANUFACTURERS INFORMATION ON THE LEAFLET IN THE BOX, when you are prescribed a new medication THE FIRST TIME!

TAKE THYROXIN WITH A LARGE GLASS OF WATER,

LEAVE AT LEAST ONE HOUR AFTER TAKING LEVOTHYROXINE BEFORE DRINKING/EATING.

REMEMBER TO ENSURE YOU MAKE APPT FOR YOUR NEXT BLOOD TEST AT LEAST 6-8 WEEKS AFTER PREVIOUS ONE, OR AS TOLD BY YOUR DOCTOR - usually 3 months!

IF YOU EXPERIENCE ANY SIDE EFFECTS YOU NEVER HAD BEFORE BUT MENTIONED ON PHARMA LEAFLET - GO BACK TO YOUR DOCTOR AND TELL HIM/HER.

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH but Finally REMEMBER TUK IS HERE FOR SUPPORT AS WELL, we know more than most doctors do about the Thyroid and related conditions.

--------------------------------------------------//-------------------------------------------------------

PS - I am NOT medically qualified at all, just trying to understand and help others also,,because I also have been diagnosed with Hashimoto's and have other medical conditions now. My Hypothyroidism was diagnosed in 2000 when I was apparently fit and healthy - little did I know then!

[SAMBS in reply to SAMBS]

PS TO my reply above! Oops I just realised I forgot to say if you want to know what natural product I'm taking, can be bought in UK, French and probably elsewhere chemists/pharmacies . It contents are , Ginko+Royal Jelly +small cherries?Acerola + propolis - last 2 are probably French words.,

Guaranteed no alcohol, no colourant, no conservatives - flavoured with honey. It gives the digestive system a good clear out probably of gut bacteria, helping the endocrine system I'm guessing.

It certainly worked on me during 1st 20 day course. Now stopped for 10 days, start again on 3rd Jan for next 20 days. I had more energy and felt 'lighter and brighter' than I have in a long time. The apparent portal hypertension has pretty much disappeared from view! I've never suffered from headaches except when I had the aneurysm and for a few days after came out of op theatre and 4/5day coma.

Oh I wonder if they gave me Thyroxin while I was out of it!

Anyway this product with the word Dynergie In its name, Similar to synergie! Has done me the power of good to extent I was buzzing all day and all evening, loads of mental and physical feeling energy!

PM me if you want full name of manufacturers name for it! You'll be able to look it up online in English.

[storm in reply to SAMBS]

Oh dear...... one part of that made me laugh... and I totally understand the distrust. Given you something whilst out of it... hmmm...

I have bought different supplements... then still not braved taking hahaha!!

I pick apart ingredients and read those - then always find negatives with condition...etc... it is a minefield and one I don't easily say...lets try and see....

I read...a lot..

decide to maybe buy the best...of...or safest...

might get it...

then chicken out.. LOL.

I have to say lately I haven't as thought blow supplements, I'm going to keep working on diet - which of course wont work alone - but I get so fed up not knowing what to do.

I think I am a degree better than I was, but if docs do tests then likely be worse - I have had that happen - though maybe they fiddle the scores on purpose too HAHAHAA... two great minds, with the best humour...

Thank you ha.

[machineman in reply to storm]

research brown seaweed

[Hidden in reply to machineman]

machineman,

Seaweed is rich in iodine.

See reply to your post below.

Flo

[storm in reply to machineman]

I was looking at seaweed ages back - non specific, as I was muddling along, but was wary about the toxins reported see - so will have to look back into.

[Hidden in reply to SAMBS]

SAMBS

You CAN name your lovely product (with the word Dynergie in its name) that gave you energy and made you feel "lighter & brighter."

Missing thyroxine whilst "out off it" will have been absorbed into the whole hospital drama, and I am sorry you had to go through all this.

Acerola cherries and bee propolis are known and available in the UK.

Thank you for info on your product,

Flower

[SAMBS in reply to Hidden]

It's called Arko Royal - with Dynergie just below

I just checked , yes there is an English website

arkopharma.co.uk

The site Arkopharma.com came up. Arko Royal is pictured near top right.

However, read the whole page about the company, what they have achieved and what other products they make. I'm lucky the 1st month dose made me feel so great, I also went to the loo more often than normal for me the first few days and I'd always been pretty regular before: -)

Sorry about the over medication comment, I'm afraid I've got a bit paranoid (another after effect) given I was prescribed too many of the wrong meds by a French (GP) who obviously doesnt comprehend neurology! Plus propranolol by the liver specialist and that definitely didn't agree with the Levo, as I discovered to my cost because it made neurological symtoms worse than when I'd 1st had them after aneurysm and brain haemorrhage. It's taken me nearly 3 years to get to where I am now, especially since Autumn '14 when I stopped taking all the meds initially except the LEVOTHYROXINE.i got fed up being used as their Guinea pig, so decided to be my own! Also the hospital thing, a humorous aside, was nearly 3 yrs ago, lol!

when I read about all the different things people are prescribed or buy OTC, because of neural effects they describe. that's why I recommend drugs.com, there may be a better site, I don't know, also labtestsonline. The worst of my many neural effects was and is short term memory loss. I lose threads here, repeat things a lot, cos I literally don't remember.

anyway I still have my mind and don't bull...t people. I just feel like a woman on a mission now, to try and help people avoid what I've gone through. I respond to symptoms, don't answer Q's about blood test results, but will suggest what tests they ask for, all based on the experience of you and other admins.

I'm a Ronnie Corbett type - I know my place.....

Thanks for the synergy explanation as well - I had only vaguely remembered it, but recognised the word. . x

[Hidden in reply to SAMBS]

SAMBS,

Synergy is a LOVELY word and I use it a lot.

Wikipedia - ....[ .. Synergy is the creation of a WHOLE that is greater than the simple sum of its parts. .. ] ... giving the impression that if you add//merge them together you will end up with a whole lot MORE than what you started with ! ! .

SAMBS, I didn't say we were over medicated. I was referring to some of us being unable to detoxify the unused parts of the meds we are taking but agree that unnecessary over medication can wreck the liver.

As you know there are very specific criterias required to make thyroid meds work and sometimes we just can't meet them but instead of realising (the low cortisol, B12, Vit D or high oestrogen or TPOAb's) we just blame the meds.

Brain fog and confusion is awful... I have been there !

Thank you for excellent advice re testing on an empty stomach and including TSH, FT4 & FT3, and nutrients and advice on taking meds.

Wishing you loads of good health and happiness SAMBS

Flower

[storm in reply to Hidden]

Thanks Flower

It has been a long rocky road, so things have been tried and most definitely, as is always reported NHS and GPS proved useless, in fact doing more harm, as they either no nothing or are keeping it quiet - pharma and pay I expect!!!

Interesting to hear you are managing on lower levels and I suppose I manage, but of course cant do much in normal everyday living.

YEP - Docs expected me to be dead a few years back with exceedingly high TSH over hospital lab machine!!

I have of course read plenty on site and still don't get the solid answers I need but also read offsite - and I think we all agree, we need someone to research properly and put the correct info out there, once and for all - not all these differing opinions.

I am fuming and will be forever more no doubt that on very first mention of thyroid - I said to doc...so do I have to take iodine - and I got head bitten off "NOPE - MEDS FOR LIFE"...

they didn't bother testing for it - now had they discovered I was iodine deficient back then - maybe less damage would have been done - although again controversial re taking it.... I merely use iodised salt, so need to retest to see if it has raised it at all.... if not may have to get other supplements - but I am still scared to do it!

I have scrapped the docs and I also saw a so called thyroid specialist and one visit there confirmed it was all about money with them too - as they told me to eat lots of things not meant to have, I figured at 60 quid hour that I couldn't afford - no way was I scraping that to be misinformed again!

I wish you well and wont give up the fight!

[Hidden in reply to storm]

storm,

If you have Hashimotos your thyroid gland will eventually become depleted of thyroid hormone. If you can't tolerate Levothyroxine (and many can't) have you considered adding T3 or NDT ?

Have you had nutrients tested lately? Low thyroid hormone may cause deficiencies in B12, Vit D folate and ferritin and all are essential (as is iodine) for good thyroid function.

Re selenium making you go strange with blurry vision - every sup I have been in need of, I have been intolerant to (& had some very strange symptoms) and has taken a while to get used to before regular supplementation. I am lucky enough to be under a nutritionist who tests me regularly and encourages what she knows me to be deficient in but it has not been an easy journey.

I am not just managing on low thyroid hormone but doing positively well (and long may it last ! .!.. ). I again urge you to consider a congested liver and a build up of unused thyroid hormone. If you have iodine, iron, and nutrient deficiencies (?), thyroid meds may not have worked well before anyway.

We all know the the majority of the NHS and GP's are useless and so have to take responsibility for our own health.

I wish you well too storm

Flower

[storm in reply to Hidden]

Same story regarding iron - docs said fine etc - but they never tested ferritin.... like I say, whilst I DO need to know - I gave on on negative docs and natural/clinical nutritionist told me all wrong things so not worth paying some expert just to be told wrong.

Liver was tested - same - said normal yet I was told to eat beetroot by another nat therapist for detox.

Vit D is likely - several attempts to get docs to test it and they failed with one hosp saying they didn't separate then last attempt nurse said no coz got to be in lab within 10 mins (ie from docs to hosp), private - I still haven't afforded but I cant stand heat / sun so may not get enough from food - defo never to sup levels. Will get there when better off.

B12 docs said fine - but it seems not and I was taking some, need more tests to see where at now.

[machineman in reply to storm]

Iodine is in every cell in your body and if your thyroids are not working that means you are deficient which is what normally caused the imbalance of the thyroid in the first place, here are a small selection of scientifically proven studies on using Iodine against using the synthetic medications

fluoride and bromine prevent the uptake of Iodine the RDI of iodine is so understated it is amazing

1, Abraham, Guy F. et al Orthoiodosupplementaion: Iodine Sufficiency Of The Whole Body pg 1

2, Hintze, G. et al treatment of Endemic goiter due to iodine deficiency with iodine, levothyroxine or both:results of a multicentre trial. European Journal of Clinical Investigation, 19:527-534, 1989

3, Eskin B et al Mammary Gland Dysplasia in Iodine Deficiency JAMA , 200:115-119. 1967

4, Eskin B Iodine and Mammary Gland Cancer Adv. Exp. Med. Biol., 91:293-304, 1977

5, Ghent, W. et al Iodine Replacement in Fibrocystic disease of the Breast Can. J. Surg. , 36:453-460, 1993

6, Eskin B. et al Different Tissue Responses for Iodine and Iodidein Rat Thyroid and mammary Glands Biol. Trace Element Research 49:9-19, 1995

7, Derry , D Breast Cancer and Iodine Trafford Publishing, Victoria B.C. , 92, 2001

8, Finley JW., Bogardus, G.M., Breast Cancer and Thyroid Disease Quart. Review Surg. Obstet. Gyn. 17:139-147, 1960

9, Smtyhe, P. , Thyroid Disease and Breast Cancer J. Endo. Int. , 16:396-401, 1993

10, Ghandrakant, C. et al Breast Cancer Relationship to Thyroid Supplements for hypothyroidism JAMA, 238:1124, 1976

11, Backwinkel, K., Jackson, A.S. Some Fearures of breast Cancer and Thyroid Deficiency Cancer17:1174-1176 , 1964

12, Epstein, S.S., Sherman, D. Breast Cancer Prevention Program Macmillan , NY. 1998 pg 5

13, Ibid

[Hidden in reply to machineman]

machineman,

There are many causes for hypothyroidism apart from iodine deficiency such as too much iodine, Hashimotos, RAI, thyroid removal, tumours, trauma, stress, environmental exposure (ie fluoride ).

Supplementing iodine is hugely controversial in Hashimoto patients. Dr Datis Kharrazian, Chris Kresser and Dr David Clark all firmly oppose the idea of providing iodine to people undergoing autoimmune attacks.

However, on the other side of the coin there is a lot if evidence supporting the tolerance of iodine supplementation when selenium levels are optimal. Many hypothyroid people suffer nutrient deficiencies as a result of a sluggish metabolism and low stomach acid encouraging malabsorbtion.

It is wise to test for iodine deficiency before supplementing as people who medicate thyroid hormone replacement should be receiving the correct amount of additional iodine in their meds.

Flower

blueprintfitness.co.uk/is-i...

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional and this information is not intended to be a substitute for medical guidance from your own doctor. Please check with your personal physician before applying any of these suggestions.

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

[machineman in reply to Hidden]

mediafire.com/view/0bcxmlk5...

here are some studies that they do not tell you about.

brown seaweed is packed with nutrients Including B12 it also has the thyroid hormones T4 and T3 that are in some of the meds they give people. if you are iodine deficient girls have a much higher risk of breast cancer.

[Hidden in reply to machineman]

machineman,

Most seaweeds contain iodine in the form of MIT (monoiodotyrosine) and DIT (diiodotyrosine) which are thyroid hormone precursors (MIT + DIT = triiodothyronine (T3).

However, I have been surprised to learn that actual thyroid hormones (T3 and T4) have been found in significant amounts in Kombu and Sargasso Weed so theoretically could be expected to provide actual thyroid activity in our bodies ! ! … in addition to supplying iodine to the thyroid.

(It is thought that early animal life became physiologically dependent on the presence of algal T3 and T4 in their diet before evolving to make their own.)

As you know our bodies do not make iodine so it is essential in our diets as the thyroid gland uses it (together with tyrosine) to convert into thyroid hormones. Iodine deficiency can impair thyroid hormone production, causing a possible goitre and hypothyroidism.

However, many of us on the forum are hypothyroid through Hashimotos Autoimmune Disease. Our goitres caused after our thyroid glands were attacked by antibodies, eventually causing the hormones to become deplete.

Thyroid hormone then has to be replaced with meds and no amount of iodine will regenerate the thyroid gland into normal production due to atrophy. Additional iodine supplementation may even encourage further Hashimoto attacks in patients with low selenium levels, so raising antibody levels.

I haven't read all of your link but assume the low risk of iodine being over supplemented is referring to the Japanese woman whom the studies were focussed on. In fact I have read they are more genetically suited to eating seaweed and can tolerate iodine excesses.

I didn't read any reference to thyroid disease.

Do you have a thyroid problem?

Post any recent test results complete with ranges (numbers in brackets) for members to comment.

Flower

iodine-induced thyrotoxicosis

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/113...

excess iodine induces hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/201...

Japenese can eat more seaweed

wired.com/2010/04/sushi-guts/

……………………………………………………………………………………

Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional and this information is not intended to be a substitute for medical guidance from your own doctor. Please check with your personal physician before applying any of these suggestions.

……………………………………………………………………………………

[machineman in reply to Hidden]

I don't have a thyroid problem but I study naturaopathy and try and relay some of that information onto others so that they can educate themselves. I had written a big response to you the other day but someone deleted it as I was writing it.

Im busy today but will respond with lots of other info for you to all work out between yourselves.

In response to hellvella about the B12 study (that I think he is talking about). This was not repeatable when replicated In fact the opposite was found to be true although it was only conducted on rats it was proven that the 5 different types of B12 that (I think) were derived from seaweed all got taken up and improved longevity.

50% of medical studies are incorrect this is why we have to look at how the body works and find the opposing views.

When a food is natural the body will only ever excrete what It doesn't need It will not use It against the body, iodine is not used in the thyroid only iodide and If you do not have the correct minerals in order to use iodine your kidneys will excrete it out of your body but the naturally correct balance of iodine in seaweed has been proven to stay in your body for far longer something like 72 hours.

One book I have Is written by Valerie Gennari goodreads.com/book/show/157... well worth trying to source it is packed with information.

seaweed will improve your intestinal flora

if you have hyperthyroid only take One gram a day split it into three if any of you are worried you are only putting in goodness I will post some more studies on thyroid and Iodine for you later. anything is correctable in the body its just that the medical industry has no interest in curing people just keeping us as customers unfortunately, therefore you are told thyroid problems are Incurable

[Hidden in reply to machineman]

machineman,

I have been trying to reference the study claiming seaweed to contain actual thyroid hormone as opposed to just the precursors but can't find anything.

I read there was a japanese study by Nishizawa Kazutoshi and its findings included Kombu and Sargasso Weed

reference: "Kazutosi, Nisizawa. 2002. Seaweeds Kaiso:Bountiful Harvest From the Seas. Sustenance for Health and Wellbeing".

However, I have not been able to find the study. Do you have any links please. ? ? .

Flower

[helvella in reply to Hidden]

I couldn't find any basic research documents - everything seems to refer round in little circles.

[machineman in reply to helvella]

LOL that's the way with the world nowadays or at least for the last 60 years, I know there were 2 papers pertaining to curing some forms of arthritis and they were deleted off of PubMed when news started spreading of it. the pharmaceutical companies exclusively employ psychopaths to run there businesses this is why 12 naturopaths were murdered recently for researching the GcMAF and toxic vaccine's, The government, police and military are just there to protect criminals nothing else.

this page is a starting point ryandrum.com/thyroid1.html it looks like someone needs to buy the book to have access to the tests possibly but if you are iodine deficient and don't want to use the natural iodine you can always just use the radioactive iodine that is expelled from the nuclear power stations naturespiritherbs.com/Medic...

sometimes if people are referencing it and we can't find it we need to question why it has been removed

[machineman in reply to Hidden]

Looks like its locked away the book costs about 25 pounds but this is the composition of one seaweed agris.fao.org/agris-search/...

iarjset.com/upload/2015/nov...

[Hidden in reply to machineman]

machineman.

That is one reason of thought but as responsible beings we have to consider the possibility that maybe there wasn't a credible reference in the beginning or maybe the findings were not as expected .... but who knows and it's fun trying to find out ! ! ..

So thank you for the interesting read but it leads back to Ryan Drum, who refers to Kazutosi ( again).

I can't found a mention of T4 or T3 in the other links although 2-iodopro-pane, 1-iodopropane, 1-iodopentane and 1-iodooctane iodides are mentioned but I have no idea if these exact ones could possibly be precursors to thyroid hormone or even of the amounts involved.

Flower ( still to be convinced ! - lol).

[machineman in reply to Hidden]

yeah I'm banging my head too. I clicked on one of the links that I eventually got to work and it did come up with the word thyroid hormone thyroglobulin but I have no idea if that relates to the study or not LOL

I cannot see how starting with a gram a day of seaweed could hurt there is a Cornish company selling kombu with only 433mcg of iodine in it.

although if you are using Teflon coated pans or having a bath (never ever have a shower when you have thyroid problems as the chlorine is so toxic) with chlorine in it you are never going to get better.

still always tomorrow I will start talking to some of these scientists and we can go from there.

[helvella in reply to machineman]

There are big questions over the B12 analogues that may be found in plants of various sorts. At least some simply do not have the required effect in animals/humans.

This may not be the only, or the last word, but it does identify that there are issues with plant sourced B12:

veganhealth.org/b12/plant

[storm in reply to machineman]

That is weird, thyroid hormone in seaweed....ya learn something new every day ... hmmm....

[machineman in reply to Hidden]

T4 needs selenium to convert to T3.

[Hidden in reply to machineman]

Hello machineman,

Welcome to our forum.

To convert T4 to T3 the enzyme 5'-deiodinase and certain minerals are required.

Selenium is beneficial but so is Zinc along with good gut health to encourage intestinal sulfatase enzymes to activate T3, a clean healthy liver for convertion and good adrenal health for adequate cortisol, amongst many other factors.

Do you have a thyroid problem?

Post recent blood test results complete with ranges ( numbers in brackets) for members to comment.

Flower

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional and this information is not intended to be a substitute for medical guidance from your own doctor. Please check with your personal physician before applying any of these suggestions.

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

[storm in reply to machineman]

Selenium as well as other aspects.

My immediate issue a few years back was that one single supplement (the first I tried) was ACE + selenium caused very scary side effects. Even then, I next tried brazil nuts and can do a couple for a few days and then milder side effects - well this was before I found iodine deficient - so not sure if I got side effects from one tablet or a few nuts because lacking iodine - I have had some nuts since, on and off, knowing it is important to get selenium - but no idea if I get enough. Funding of tests is hard for me see.

My T3 was always in range, not high though - but made me think converting ok even though T4 low.

I haven't avoided iodine, just need to retest to be safer.

The whole thing is guesswork and reading all the negatives drives ya mad, as know what body MIGHT NEED but to do it without harm etc.

I DO wish the docs etc would be allowed to help - many are useless. It could be they don't know the truth OR obvs tied by Pharma, but it would be helpful for cures. I somehow don't believe for one minute nobody knows how - science has moved on a lot, although recent findings wont come into effect for decades - like all this stem cell thing - I liken that to "would have tested auto immune causes" before talking regrowing body parts??!! Same with cancers - they have more cures possibly or shall we stick to more expensive meds being held back. If this doesn't make sense to anyone - it is generalisation - not about thyroid - but don't tell me docs / consultants / specialists / scientists don't study extensively before they qualify - they don't study that whatever condition - it's meds for life and no other options, it is merely in the job and they are bound.

I do hate it when you go to a doc and mention possibles and they wont even answer properly - I have had lies before, which adds to distrust!

Fact is docs should check for deficiencies - not risk unknowing by patient - and had they said to me years back - I may not have got as bad as did - especially as selenium helps lower antibodies in some cases - crikey - docs didn't even check for those, until I learned about them - so I might be more eaten away due to possible lack - I think it is negligent.

[machineman in reply to storm]

Stem cells are generated in your bone marrow if you restrict calories stem cell production begins this is why fasting is so effective at curing the body I even know a shaman that regrew someones limb back by massaging the ends of the nerves.

what we are told is a pack of lies but doctors do not look in the right areas to know that they are on the wrong track.

your liver is most probably out of sync if you were to improve your bile salts this would remove a lot of the T4 out of your blood this starts with your intestinal flora (seaweed) your stomach acid (beetroot) and your villi (B2 B6 and Magnesium)

well worth researching seaweed. also most of our food is tainted if you have a garden get a greenhouse and grow your own food this is pretty much the only way of guaranteeing your are getting the right food without any chemicals being sprayed onto them check out the herbsplusbeadworks channel on youtube for a fuller understanding the herbalist is spot on and has a huge amount of information.

and only use cows manure as fertiliser

also research Rhodiola

[storm in reply to machineman]

Thank you - I am halfway with some of this, so what you are saying is and has been in mind a while - and I started making life changes, just need to keep going and learning.

I will always question everything though.

Will look up more later, as very tired etc - just wanted to acknowledge and say I have heard bits of what you are saying.

[SAMBS]

Hi Storm,

To you and everyone I say, Type only ONLY "T3" into your search engine - then look For endocrine.web.com or just go direct to their website

READ what they have to say. It is anHonCode website!

You may still be confused, but it's about the best and most clear article I've read explaining the thyroid and T3, T4

[storm in reply to SAMBS]

I will try that - haha, I tend to type sentences of nearest OR two or three words...

I thought I had a great understanding and probably do - but then new info always crops up which makes me need to check - just incase someone got it wrong up top....(eh up top where...) ... but so true, so many alt interests out there - deliberate misleading...

As I said before... I feel brainwashed... but waken to it - the body needs what it needs and if we don't put it in.... it cant use it can it.. . the hard part is knowing and what is safe...

Maybe one fruit, one veg wont do it....

maybe it needs a bucket load....but of course we don't do that do we...

and for clarity to others reading this wrong - I mean IF WE HAD VOLUMES of say foods containing vits, minerals or whatever natural plant...we may well get better - point being we didn't get brought up over centuries to consume volumes of such and of course its all changed over that time - I'm talking a bit primitive but hope that makes it clearer.

When docs say no cure - it might be true, it might not - it is likely true on modern ways.

Another light hearted remark....is probably all the plants we have been told are poisonous are probably cures - LOL (miniscule amounts ARE already used say in homeopathy) but is this just a GOV/PHARMA that says what is poisonous - OR did loads of people consume to try it... really... HAHA! (Soz). Where there is doubt....

[greygoose]

Wow, Storm! I'd love to know what you've been reading! Think you might have misunderstood...

T4 is a storage hormone, and one molecule of T4 contains 4 atoms (not molécules) of iodine. It is converted into T3 (the active hormone that every cell in your body needs) by removing one atom of iodine (but it has to be the right atom, or you get rT3). That atom of iodine is then RECYCLED back to the thyroid gland to make another molucule of T4. That's the recycling bit. The T3 itself is used up, it cannot become T4 again. The T3 that isn't used in the cells - plus any rT3 hanging around - then has another atom of iodine removed to become T2. And any unused T2 has another atom of iodine removed and becomes T1. And all those removed atoms of iodine are recycled to become new molecules of T4. And, a little T3 is also made in the gland. But, nowhere in the body can an atom of iodine be added on after one has removed. It all goes through the system of reduction until nothing is left BUT the atoms of iodine removed are reused.

The TSH is the system whereby the thyroid gland is stimulated to make more hormone (T4 and a little T3, and even less T2 and T1) when the pituitary detects that there is low T3 in the blood. However, when you are taking thyroid hormone replacement, the TSH can be lowered with both T4 and T3, and becomes very unreliable, and different for everyone. However, it has now been discovered that TSH also promotes conversion. So, if you're one of those people that need to take so much T4, to produce enough T3 to live, that your TSH is suppressed, then you're also going to need some T3. It's a bit of a vicious circle, really.

And, that's how you have to think about it : thyroid hormone replacement - not meds! Levo is T4, a hormone, not a drug. Just because you react badly to drugs does not mean you will react badly to hormones.

A lot of people Don't do well on Levo - maybe because it is synthetic, maybe because of the fillers in the tablet. But that doesn't mean that you will react badly to all brands of synthetic T4, or to T3, or to NDT. But you need something. And, no, iodine is not the answer, because even if you have low iodine, it is not the main reason you are hypo. You have Hashi's, which is slowly destroying your gland. Your gland is now obviously too small to produce enough thyroid hormone for you to be well. Adding more iodine is not likely to help. If half your factory has burned down, shovelling in more raw materials is not going to increase production, is it.

Yes, we've all heard stories about people who have taken iodine and 'cured' their Hashi's. But, when is a cure not a cure? Hashi's is, by nature, inconsistant. It can go into 'remission' for a long time - years, even. But, eventually, it comes back, and the person is more hypo than ever. I knew a girl that did that. She took iodine and was able to come off thyroid hormone replacement. She told everyone that she had 'cured' her Hashi's. For a couple of years. Now she's back on it!

Besides, when you take thyroid hormone replacement - T4 or whatever - and all those atoms of iodine are removed to make T3, etc. you are, effectively, taking in more iodine - iodine that wasn't there before and is being recycled in your body. If low iodine was your problem, that would help, wouldn't it?

Take care.

[storm in reply to greygoose]

Thank youuuuuu

So the dropped off atoms get recycled...ok!

This is what I understood on the whole - then started to doubt as you can tell - but you indicate possibly varies from person to person on what triggers what.

Testing as deficient in iodine just made me worry - of course because I had read don't take... which makes you think...well where is it going to come from if don't...and the body needs it for other parts too...

Then the recycling bit - you think...well what is this test really doing - it says cellular but how can it test cellular levels.... it is testing what is being turfed out by the body in waters....

You can see cant you... I want to be safe... and docs aren't any help - yep I tried numerous docs and yep tried numerous swaps of meds (hormone - levo - T4) - the next step WAS due to be endo to ask if they would prescribe T3 - but that is a scary thought and I was giving a lot of thought to it and trying to sort diet some more first - I just haven't had the money to get all the private testing I wanted done... and wont for a while - as that was going to guide me. Again YEP I asked various docs for helpful tests and nope they made excuses and failed, even when I repeatedly asked - so nellies to them!!

I will be getting more checked out - as soon as can - but no surplus monies...yet!

[Heloise in reply to storm]

We know for SURE that we all need T3. If your thyroid is producing enough T4, then possibly you can work out the conversion problems by diets and supplements. That also relies on the working of your adrenal glands which ultimately decide what to do with thyroid hormone. (or from what I think up to now). I think taking T3 in the meantime is a safer bet if everything else is in question.

Iodine is beneficial for so many reasons, also breast health, so I feel like you that we NEED it.

The dose is discussed in one of those links and there is a caution about the 12 mgs. which they thought many Japanese people consumed but that was according to the weight of the seaweed or something. It is largely dismissed now I think and reduced to 3 mgs. Iodoral just happens to come in 3mg. doses but I have a 1 mg. supplement which I take on occasion.

[storm in reply to Heloise]

I originally read all the toxins in seaweed LOL.. that was ages back... and never keen on tablets...but ya know... still learning...slowly...when maybe need to try more... but monitor carefully.... always money though as well as lack of energy...

My T3 isn't high in range but was always mid - even when T4 was low and TSH thru the roof - weird as couldn't convert T4 (we presume) else allergic to Levo various brands and ingredients...

So if T4 low - docs did say weird re T3 not being out... LOL.

AHHH YES ADRENAL - my new worry, which I wonder if is out - as in ok when get up, altho tired - but cant last awake all day but also I get more unsteady after some hours - daily pattern. I cant tie that in with thyroid hormones, else I would be same level of wonky all day long, but sleep is refreshing me a little anyway...

again will have to wait til can fund private tests! But is on list of to do!

I just didn't want to go too heavy on conversion when not making enough T4 - as mentioned I understand the body can slow down, including making T4 when under strain - and stress was my main cause, but also poor diet thru being left in a bad situ with ex partner and trying to keep roof over head etc.

I was put off trying actual T3 as it sounds awful - heart risk - palps - cant get off it - T4 stops manufacture...so on - all that reading but also as GP wont prescribe,makes it a gamble for someone like me that gets heart symptoms but also unsure as T3 in range tho could be a bit higher! All these facts could be wrong of course - but I don't know that unless I make self guinea pig and after what I have been thru I wasn't willing. The T4 was causing me to have daily episodes of near stopping breathing! T3 is said to be higher risk - you see my point!

[Heloise in reply to storm]

I must respectfully disagree, Storm. For one thing, I know your heart and brain both need lots of T3 and I think you are depriving both. The high FT3 is really a false reading or at least not revealing your metabolic level. Your low temperature tells the truth.

T4 is very unsteady and with a half life of two weeks, you can't even find out what it is doing for quite a while. It can be turning to reverse T3. The T3 receptors could be blocked by cortisol.

I do sympathise as you have a stressful situation right now. It's a problem so many have. Relaxation techniques can work.

Have you seen this video?

youtube.com/watch?v=T_Re4ja...(Not working as expected?)

[storm in reply to Heloise]

Thank you - I DO have it all in mind - slowly getting thru planning next move - not overnight or fast at all - as a bit in a rut - but I'm not daft.

Temperature was really low few years back - crept up slowly, it's not back to normal as in straight off, but it is closing in to acceptable if variations considered normal. Bit more to go and relieved it has mostly held up for some time, of course I hope to climb back to normal but never think it will, just hope - because I cant actually work out what has helped it rise so far

[Hidden in reply to storm]

storm,

I agree with Heloise as your T3 reading is only the amount circulating in the blood and not on an intracellular level.

I would also say that adding T3 to my T4 stopped my heart palpitations and weird head seizures that I had endured for four long years.

Flower

[storm in reply to Hidden]

Private tests say their reading was cellular whereas docs is serum - both showed in range but I say a bit more wouldn't go amiss - depends as don't know what it was before ill plus I need to get it checked again - when can afford.

Glad it stopped palps with you! Maybe the cause of those palps was different though ie anxiety based? - I am thinking I have missed heart beats etc possibly even dodgy valve and everywhere you read it can say T3 damages heart

and before anyone says no meds will - this is how hard a decision I have had to face to date.

[Hidden]

If you have tested for iodine, and it is low, then it seems to me that it would be reasonable to get it into a normal range and see if you feel better.

I would be very surprised if there is a research study that has looked at people who have Hashis AND are iodine deficient, then treated them with iodine to see if it gets better or worse. But if I am wrong, please someone post the link.

[storm in reply to Hidden]

I think you are right in general, it is a shady area - there is of course Brownstein etc that tell everyone to takes loads of iodine (DONT DO THIS PEEPS).... in order to FLUSH OUT other halogens you see - but deary me - risky!

I have likely trickled more into food and iodised salt but don't know where I am at - so in time will get retest - to see if raised

Thank you for your reply

[Heloise in reply to Hidden]

How do you test for normal range for iodine, Asp? From what I understand with the urine test is to check how much is discharged after taking a loading dose. If you lose a lot, it means you have a sufficient amount. Serum tests are not very valuable.

[storm in reply to Heloise]

There are two types of tests - urine. One is the loading one but I didn't fancy swallowing anything - some may frown upon me, but ultimately we are all different in views LOL.

The other I did a combined test iodine, T4, T3 urine test - why? - Because I can black out AFTER serum tests so now dread every one so wanted to check T4 and T3 same time as know what iodine level was - of course I have doubts as to accuracy but others HAVE compared by going to doc. These were Genova tests and have to be done precisely over 24 hours. The instructions are confusing if not careful - I rang them though, plus costs a lot!

[Heloise in reply to storm]

What were your results and what is the range for iodine if I may ask?

[storm in reply to Heloise]

Ohhhh now you're asking - it was very different to docs / hosp ranges.

I have filed deeply ... so cant put hand on at mo.

Basically you get a colour coded stretch diagram, as well as pmol / 24 hour score for T4 and T3

then they give you a ratio of T3: T4

Tests are based on tissue exposure over 24 hours.

Iodine results are sent separate range 100-199 and I was about 70 - LOW, being in the RED zone on a red, yellow/amber, green diagram - that is red to the left, not red as in over, if that makes sense - low to left and high to right!

Think if you look on Genova website, look up test then see on right of page - USED TO show samples of results, maybe PDF (I haven't just checked to see if still there) PC real slow here - so will leave it with you!

[Hidden in reply to storm]

Wow, Storm, you are thorough. And brave. "Black out after serum tests"....

Your words help explain why there isn't enough research into the iodine status of newly diagnosed hypoTs. Doing a serum and urine test on patients and controls would be hideously expensive - probably over half a million pounds to do the research.

So we are down to learning from one another.

[storm in reply to Hidden]

Hiya - at first we start out innocent - trusting.... then we end up desperate.... then we need to try to learn along the way....

Bless you - my family etc think I am mad, but they simply cant grasp I am ill, on the other hand I can pretend I'm not, although that doesn't work that well, merely on the face of it in limited times anyone sees me ha ha ha!

I know money is the root of a lot of evil errr.... I once wrote to a Gov dept telling them off - about how can little tablets cost so much (not talking thyroid but say cancer etc - I basically told them to go back into the Pharma business and sort it all out.... and more - I laugh as even if ignored - they are supposed to read them!! Funny though there was some mention in news of them trying to look into costs etc... so might have been down to me... who knows....

I also wrote to some senior NHS in past who gave me some other body - where you can recommend what research you want etc - I just cant remember who it was haha!

[Heloise]

I had bookmarked these iodine pages if you would like to peruse.

earthclinic.com/remedies/io...

alkalizeforhealth.net/Liodi...

theiodineproject.webs.com/b...

[storm in reply to Heloise]

Thank you will have a look... a bit later... much appreciated.

[Chrystalheart]

I'm not addressing the thyroid question, just the med question. 1) if you get your genome tested through 23andme or whatever, then feed your date into livewello's database, you can find if certain medications are good/bad/need different dosing. (If that medication has been mapped).

It could also be an allergy to one or more of the inert ingredients. Usually the culprits are food based ingredients like soy, dairy, etc. Or preservatives.

Sometimes it's the medicine type. If you research them and find, for example, that they are all sulfureas or whatever, you might have a little more pharmaceutical leeway.

Wish you all the best on your journey...

Jen

[storm in reply to Chrystalheart]

Thanks Jen I do recall looking up brands and ingredients but seems body rejected all but then I know I am like that - ESP LOL - extra sensory (against) pills maybe ha ha ha!! :-0

[machineman]

Have a look at these, this first video is a guy that is very down to earth will make you smile and give you the truth as well as some simple remedies on how to go about helping yourself.

youtube.com/watch?v=Zl45x3x...(Not working as expected?)

books.google.com.au/books?i...

books.google.com.au/books?i...

books.google.com.au/books?i...

Brown Seaweed contains thyroid hormones as well as most other minerals that are depleted from our food also it detoxifies your liver.

a couple of pointers when you cook your food all enzymes in the food denature at 118f (this means your pancreas has to produce enzymes to digest your food when you have thyroid problems your liver is normally not functioning correctly)

all protein in vegetables denatures at 167f meat protein denatures at 100f meat is an extremely poor source of protein as well as other additives like sodium nitrate and antibiotics (once the protein is denatured it is not able to be used by the body) cook your food in a clay vessel this has more uniformity for heat distribution and takes less energy always cook your food around the 100f mark

and if you use a blender never blend fruit this destroys the fibre and enables the fructose to go straight into the bloodstream turning into fat.

a very good way of cleaning your liver out is to use Silymarin combined with Slippery Elm Bark

Dairy and Grains are useless as a food source and toxic to our bodies the guy in the video will explain about the grains he has around 140 videos which are choc full of Information.

[storm in reply to machineman]

Thanks for that - interesting indeed