RLS and Magnesium

[Bruxelles]

Has anyone experienced this? I started taking Magnesium for my RLS but each time I take it I get terrible cramps in my legs and toes several times a night. Yet Magnesium is used to get rid of cramp. I am not subject to cramp normally. Perhaps it’s the same mechanism as Homeopathic remedies whereby a little of the substance causing the problem is given (like to like) to heal.

[ironbrain]

Magnesium needs to be in balance with potassium and probably sodium, calcium and chlorine too. You don't say how much you are taking, but taking too much of one can reduce the uptake of the other. Supplementing with extra potassium is a bit dodgy as the amount we need is rather critical and not to be exceeded.

A reply I gave about potassium some time back:

healthunlocked.com/rlsuk/po...

[Bruxelles in reply to ironbrain]

Hello, thankyou for your reply. Yes, I think maybe you’re right. I did take Potassium for a short while but that was in the beginning of my RLS journey and I don’t remember whether I took it alone or in association with Magnesium.At the moment the Magnesium tablets I have are 450mg Magnesium element which is 750mg Magnesium Oxide - 120% daily recommended dose. Also I haven’t had this problem of cramp when I’ve taken Magnesium in the past. Another thing that makes me think it could be an imbalance as you say is that I do have high blood pressure sometimes and Potassium helps to regulate blood pressure. It would make sense as sometimes my blood pressure is high and my pulse very fast - my GP sent me to a Cardiologist twice because of this but it was quite normal when I went to the Cardiologist.

I have read your very interesting reply about Potassium, thankyou. The problem is of course getting a Dr that understands and will do the necessary blood tests.

Have a nice day.

[ironbrain in reply to Bruxelles]

If you're taking magnesium oxide, maybe it's inhibiting your digestion. If I don't get enough protein and/or fat/oil, it's a sure thing I'll get night cramps.I take over twice the RDA for magnesium as magnesium citrate. I think it's a known medical fact that magnesium modifies excitatory nervous activity.

[Boomerang83 in reply to Bruxelles]

Just a thought. I recently heard a doctor say that magnesium was excellent for RLS but not the oxide version,

[Reb0013 in reply to Boomerang83]

I alternate mg oxide and mg malate (100mg doses each) as a morning routine, then mg glycinate (200mg) before bed. Mg oxide aids in bowel movements to help keep me regular...in my case.

[Bruxelles in reply to Boomerang83]

Hi Boomerang83, it’s the Oxide one I’ve been taking and which gives me cramps

[Boomerang83 in reply to Bruxelles]

I think the pharma nord bio magnesium is the best one.

[bill54321 in reply to ironbrain]

Lack of Potassium can cause hypercalcium and cause weakness. I had weakness 10 months before RX for Potassium. So, is needs a knowledgeable physician to work with you. Don't be afraid to seek 2nd opinions.

[Hidden in reply to ironbrain]

Hi reading your reply you seen to no more tha most the them that keeps coming back is minerals or lack of maybe we should have a blood test to check on them all what’s your thoughts just one more thing when I suffer my eye site is appalling

[ironbrain in reply to Hidden]

I seem to remember, although perhaps wrongly, that a full blood test costs the UK NHS about £400. Potassium is very strongly regulated by the body, so if it's very far off what it should be, you may well have a problem on your hands.My night cramps are almost completely related to the amount of exercise I take and how much protein and fat I eat – I don't think I have some form of mild MS. I find butter (or cheese – but that affects my bowel function) is the fat that helps most. I also need that some amount of my protein intake is from the muscle of an animal, bird or fish – I've a theory that there must be something in it necessary to make myelin or make it stick to nerves. (Not tried eating brains.)

[Bruxelles in reply to ironbrain]

Interesting, thanks. I live in Belgium and a blood test is nowhere near that price! I do eat meat about twice a week sometimes only chicken but I do eat red meat sometimes. I try to eat fish or vegetables with lentils and beans for protein. I know cheese is very indigestible but never noticed any effect on bowels directly. You seem to have done some fine tuning in relation to your body.

[ironbrain in reply to Bruxelles]

I'm fairly sure it's the casein in cheese that's the problem. Some years back I tried casein protein powder rather than whey powder – never again! Calcium may also cause a problem.

I like cheese and bought 900 gram "slabs" of it from the likes of Aldi and Lidl to consume in just a very few days. I can probably get away with 100 grams of it occasionally, perhaps 200 grams, and I like it with some oily fish since it provides both the extra protein and the fat I need.

I wonder if my rather high tendency to get these cramps isn't at least partly due to a considerable abstinence to fat (and a sometime abstinence from animal products) in decades gone by.

The cost of private blood tests seem to confirm a three-figure cost for a full blood test with cell count etc etc. The NHS prices I see I guess don't include the doctor's/nurse's time and overheads. A potassium test (for reasons I don't know) requires fresh blood – I had to have one redone because the first wasn't done soon enough after the blood had been taken.

[Hidden]

It seems one of the mechanisms that can lead to cramps is magnesium deficiency, so it is strange that it should cause you cramps.

If the side effects of taking it re worse than the symptoms you want to relieve, then it's not worth taking.

It is important to maintain "electrolyte balance", which does involve potassium, sodium and calcium as well as magnesium. There are various homeostatic mechanisms in the body that normally do this, e.g. in the kidneys.

Potassium is a particularly important and although it is well accepted that a potassium supplement can help relieve symptoms of RLS in people with end stage kidney failure, undergoing dialysis there is no conclusive evidence it helps RLS for people with normal potassium levels.

People use to take salt tablets for cramps, the sodium in it being an electrolyte. This isn't a good idea as it can lead to raised blood pressure.

It's probably a good idea to consult a doctor before taking any electrolyte supplement.

[Bruxelles in reply to Hidden]

Thankyou for your input. I thought it was strange also and was very surprised. I stopped taking it when the cramps started and to check that the cramps coincided with when I took Magnesium, I have tried taking it and stopped several times and each time I have taken it I have had cramps. Then I stopped it completely as the connection seemed evident. It maybe that I am lacking sodium and this affected the electrolyte balance. I have been low in Sodium in the past.

It is difficult finding a Dr that will take the time and can understand the problem. I do have an appointment with the Dr this coming week and I will ask for a blood test althoughI’m not too popular with him at the moment because I won’t take loads of medicines. The neurologist was hopeless also!

I hope your not suffering too much?

[Hidden in reply to Bruxelles]

A renal function test would be helpful.

I'm not suffering today thanks.

[Hidden]

Hi bruxelles, I had a similar experience with magnesium only I believe it was triggering migraines. Years of debilitating migraines before I realized it. And magnesium is supposed to be great for migraines. If someone else wrote this I would find it dubious. Anyways, I see you tried iron. Might I suggest taking that iron right before bed with vitamin c AND on an empty stomach. A few of us on here get immediate relief for one night by taking iron before bed. I have to take a highly bioavailable form. It has never not worked for me. Not sure what kind of iron you own but if you take it with vitamin C on an empty stomach before bed you probably won’t need to buy a more expensive bioavailable form. Good luck!

[Bruxelles in reply to Hidden]

Hi Eitheror, thanks for your reply. I am not taking iron at the moment. The neurologist gave it to me when I started seeing him but it was made up by the pharmacist and a very high dose. I took it with Vit C and E but it made no difference so he didn’t prescribe it again. How much do you take and how much Vit C?Does the Vit C not give you stomach ache when you take it on an empty stomach? I have given up on the Neurologist as he prescribed (forgotten the name of it) which didn’t work with the initial small dose, so he doubled it and then my legs were immediately worse and as if it wasn’t bad enough being up most of the night my legs started bothering me in the afternoon and evening as well as the night. When I went back and told him he told me to halve the dose so I halved it for a short while so as not to stop it abruptly and then I stopped taking it altogether. Not been back since as he obviously wasn’t interested. This week I am going to my GP but he also prescribed the same anti Parkinson’s drug as the Neurologist and is not pleased with me because I am not taking it! Knowing the side effects of these drugs, I tried to find a solution myself before going to Dr. but in the end went out of desperation!

[Hidden in reply to Bruxelles]

Iron would do nothing for me if I were to take it in the morning or even the afternoon. For a few of us on here iron works for RLS the way aspirin does a headache. I use a form called ferrous bisglycinate - about 25mg. With this form I don’t believe Viamin C is needed. With the hard to absorb ferrous sulfate then vitamin c would be helpful. People with RLS have a poor dopamine transport system especially in a part of the brain called the striatum niger. And we have low brain iron stores, not necessarily low bodily stores. Strange I know. Iron is needed to make the dopamine transport system run smoothly. We rely heavily on that unbound, free floating iron in our blood because our brains have no stores. At night that free floating iron in the blood drops precipitously. I

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Iron as you know is a heavy metal and for some reason Mother Nature has seen fit to sequester away that free-floating iron before we go to sleep. So by taking ferrous bisglycinate at night I’m sneaking it some much needed highly bioavailable iron. There might be a point of no return however. For example, if you’re taking melatonin or anti-depressants or anti-histamines or antacids which antagonizes what little dopamine our dopamine transport system hurls down our spines then the iron may not work or you may need to double the dose - or at least I would need to double the dose. RLS seems to be mainly a night-time disease and there’s got to be reason. I have read and I truly believe it is because of that night time drop of iron. Ever wonder why standing up or walking relieves RLS? When we stand our brains (from various regions) releases dopamine to steady us and coordinate movement. I’ve noticed that if the RLS is particularly bad, leaning will not completely relieve it. I guess my brain doesn’t sense enough imbalance and doesn’t release much dopamine down my spine. It’s that dopamine that travels down our spines that quiets our arms and legs. I find it interesting that some people go a good portion of their lives with no symptoms of RLS and then they get pregnant (certain hormones antagonize) or they start to take anti-depressants or just get old enough (with age our lousy dopamine transport system becomes lousier) and then they develop symptoms of RLS. Supposedly there are things people can do to up-regulate their dopamine receptors like intermittent fasting or severe calorie restriction or anaerobic exercise. It seems to work for people who down-regulated their dopamine receptors because of drug or porn addictions or obesity. I find that if I eat too much at night my RLS is worse than it has to be. Or of course if heaven forbid I take an antacid like Tagamet or an antihistamine like Benedryl. Some people complain that when they injured their back their RLS got worse or kicked in for the first time. Makes sense if their spine is at all impinged because that might interfere with the transmission of that already scant amount of dopamine. The vast vast majority of the world can get pregnant or take melatonin or become obese or injure their back or grow old and never feel so much as a twinge of RLS. However, those of us born with fewer and smaller dopamine receptors just can’t afford those things that interfere with that trickle of dopamine. That trickle may be just enough such that we never know we are susceptible to RLS until one of the above happens. We’re really kind of on the edge of a cliff. Good luck with the iron.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Btw, it’s not that drug or porn addicts develop RLS symptoms, it’s that they need ever more drugs or porn to get that same, initial dopamine rush. They have literally beaten their receptors to exhaustion known as “down-regulation.” There are internet sites where people make suggestions as to how to “up-regulate” dopamine receptors that were beaten down due to dopamine-type addictions.

[Boldgirl45]

Hi Bruxelles. So one thing to know about magnesium is that as the body realises what it's been missing, the symptoms can get temporarily worse. So my migraines got worse before they got better. Ditto my RLS (I have it mildly). I also had palpitations which can be common. It's worth reading The Magnesium Miracle by Carolyn Dean as she covers this. She is an expert and now has developed her own formula, however I take the one she originally recommended, Natural Calm (it's cheaper and does the same for me). Hope that helps in some way - don't give up on magnesium, it's important (and yes, balance it with other minerals etc)

[Bruxelles in reply to Boldgirl45]

Hi boldgirl45, thanks for your reply. Do you mean your migraines got worse when you were taking the Magnesium and did you get the palpitations when you were taking the Magnesium or before? I had tried Metasleep by Metagenics which has Vits B6 and 12 + Folate, Melatonine,Valerian, Passiflora,Melissa and Cammomile with it but it didn’t make any difference to my legs but then I saw it only had 60 mg of Magnesium element in it but it didn’t give me cramp. As it didn’t make any difference (my RLS is pretty severe and every night) I bought Magnesium on it’s own which has 450mg of Magnesium element with Vit B6 and then I started to get cramps. I do get unexplained high blood pressure from time to time which always alarms my GP as my pulse races but when he sends me to the Cardiologist everything is fine! I will certainly get the book you recommend and will try and get Natural Calm but I live I. Belgium so may not find that particular one here. How much. Magnesium does it have in it?I think I shall go to GP this week and ask for a blood test.

[Boldgirl45 in reply to Bruxelles]

Hi Bruxelles, not sure where it will be available - have a look here for the strength etc, an you can perhaps look at your local amazon. amazon.co.uk/Natural-Vitali.... It's so much cheaper as it lasts a good amount of time. Recommend reading the book first. Only thing I'd say is that she focusses solely on magnesium, when of course there are lots of other minerals and vits needed. Have a look at the Perfect Health Diet by Paul Jaminet (warning: it's a large book!). Good luck!

[Boldgirl45 in reply to Boldgirl45]

Sorry I meant to say that initially, after starting to take magnesium, the migraines got worse, but then they got better.

Palpitations I experienced when dabbling with vitamins some years before. I narrowed it down to magnesium. I then stopped taking it for years until I realised how valuable it is and how deficient many people are. This later time it didn't cause palpitations at all (with the Natural Calm)

[Bruxelles in reply to Boldgirl45]

OK thanks for that.

[Graceman]

I take magnesium. It helps a little to mellow me out at night, but it’s not a solution for me. RLS robs me of sleep entirely without low dose methadone, which I’ve taken for years. I actually rotate 10mg methadone one night and Sinemet the next night. Works very well for me.

[Stdorn]

I took a high dose magnesium and on the second day I was getting sore I coulndt move just normal daily movment was causing muscles to get sore like they had cramped. I assumed it was an overdose and stopped taking it. After my sore muscles healed I was fine. I'm pretty sure that was an overdose. It did not help my rls at all. I know someone who takes a prescription magnesium and they started getting cramps that quit if they started skipping the occasional dose.

[DicCarlson]

You might try an electrolyte supplement like Nuun (a fizzy tablet) and perhaps investigate Magtein. Also the Adrenal cocktail might work (juice with sea salt and cream of tartar). Read more about the Adrenal Cocktail here...

therootcauseprotocol.com/fa...

[WideBody]

HI Bruxelles, I am a cramper, I get cramps in my toes, inner thigh, hands you name it. I have gotten cramps in my lats, yes my lats, while driving no less (I had to stop). To me toe cramps are the harbinger of things to come.

I have tried a lot of things. You won't believe what works, (for me).

First, hydrate, hydrate, hydrate. Really, at the first sign of cramping have a glass of water. I am talking 8 fluids ounces of water, not 3 sips. You should be taking your magnesium with lots of water.

Electrolytes are important, but there are a lot of them. It's tough to get right. (I sweat a lot), so I do take potassium, magnesium, calcium and I do believe they help me. If you don't know enough start with a supplement that endurance exercise people use, I have used "Nuun", but any bike shop will have something. I have even put baking soda in my water bottles, Baking soda is just bicarbonate of sodium. Salt without the chloride.

If cramps are coming hard (ibuprofen), i reach for a bag of chips and a jar of jalapenos. Eat them slow, let them burn in your mouth, the salt takes away some of the hot. I believe it is the nerves that are the problem. There is a lot of science behind it. I learned it from here. hotshot.com. While I am not going to pay 6 dollars for a tiny little bottle of it. I can read the ingredients list and do my own investigation. If I remember correctly it works on the trp? channels. I used it once and found one bottle was two servings, put it in your mouth and swish around, then breath. Jalapenos do the same thing.

True story, I once got a cramp in my stomach and went down, about 30 feet from an ambulance. Why they put the ambulance at the end of a 100 mile bike ride is beyond me. Anyway, I got a cramp, grabbed my stomach and went down. A guy screamed "He grabbed his chest!" and before I knew it I was swarmed with paramedics. They called my 16 year old son over and he non-nonchalantly said "no big deal, he does that all the time at home", and walked away. I had to sign a wavier to refuse treatment, for a cramp in my stomach.

[captkirk]

Hi try taking Magnesium Citrate 150mg 2-3 times a day. Or calcium magnesium 333/167mg before bed. I hope this helps you, it works for me. Good luck

[bill54321]

1)Do you think you have RLS (Mentally) or do you have physical jerks Unfortunately actual jerks is ? nit RLS.2) magnesium of pure grade helps RLS for some peopleBUT<BUT oral magnesium, for some, accumulates in the BRAIN BARRIERand stuties show an increase in RLS. Confused? join the club. 3)NO NEUROLOGIST can CORRECTLY discribe day time jerks>If so, give me their publication. You need to mind your symptoms and go to the neurologist that can differentiate physical jerks awake vs night time during sleep.

[lorrinet]

I take Magnesium Malate and I have awful cramp at night. You've made me wonder. I think I'll cut my dose in half and see what happens.