Ketogenic/Paleo diet: I have been following a... - PMRGCAuk

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Ketogenic/Paleo diet

Miserere profile image
60 Replies

I have been following a ketogenic diet with very little dairy. It is very low carb and I've lost weight and generally feel better on it. However, a recent blood test showed that I have a low sodium level. Whilst I do season food I don't eat any processed food, so no crisps, savoury snacks etc. that would contain salt. Now I need to take about a teaspoon of salt a day in water to ensure I get sufficient sodium. I only found this out because I needed a blood test in advance of surgery (knee replacement), but maybe it is something to be aware of if you are low carb and avoiding processed food. They're going to test me again next week to ensure the sodium levels have raised sufficiently.

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Miserere
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PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador

I haven't used salt in cooking for 40 years or so, since I got my first microwave! I only eat crisps very occasionally - when they arrive with an aperitivo type drink, No other processed foods. My husband, OTOH, had the most disgusting diet, packet of crisps a day, only sort of sandwich for lunch was ham with salty butter, favourite meals bacon and ham and chips. My sodium was always fine, his sodium was always low ...

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to PMRpro

There's no telling, is there??

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to PMRpro

Hmm ... have just looked up low sodium - not great but she did say it was only just below normal. I shall certainly add more and not drink too much water. I wonder if the keto and recent carnivore have affected them ...

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Miserere

Yes, a ketogenic diet leads to an accelerated sodium excretion that increases water and salt loss through the urine. Same with fasting. Plus you have also removed processed food from your diet - so your intake of sodium is reduced.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to PMRpro

So, no need to panic as yet? I've added a teaspoon of salt to water and will drink it through the evening. I am wondering whether to increase carb intake as well. Not a problem I have experienced before and don't want anything to delay surgery as have been waiting for a long time.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Miserere

If it isn't bothering your GP, I doubt it need bother you so no, no need to panic. Many people have a slightly too low sodium since the panic over salt in diet and BP, How low was it?

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to PMRpro

I don't know - it was the nurse who did the anaesthetic assessment last week at the hospital who rang to tell me. She has asked me to have it tested again next week and, in the mean time, increase salt intake.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Miserere

I hate that - for goodness sake give me the numbers!!!!

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to PMRpro

I should have asked ... she didn't seem too concerned but needs to retest.

piglette profile image
piglette

Looking at it from another point of view, I have been watching the Barefoot Contessa series on TV and I am amazed by the amount of salt she keeps using. I wonder if I would have felt the same say thirty years ago.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to piglette

I watch many of the chefs throwing the salt in and am glad I don't eat in restaurants too often.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Miserere

If I eat out 3 days in a row my feet are like footballs! Hence my preference for camping over hotels!!!!

SnazzyD profile image
SnazzyD in reply to PMRpro

2 days in Rome and I’m blown up like a blimp

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to SnazzyD

And it is a bit warm to boot!

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to PMRpro

I do find my feet can swell a bit at the end of a long, hot day, such as at the moment.

winfong profile image
winfong

Food tastes so much better without gobs and gobs of salt. I haven't used a salt shaker since when I was a kid.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to winfong

Tim Spector did a podcast including about using salt and got quite stroppy claiming food without added salt was inedible. OTOH, I find food WITH salt often inedible.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to PMRpro

There's a right and wrong amount, isn't there? I am used to low salt usage - so like low sugar usage I don't have the taste for it so much now. However, I shall add electrolyte salt to things for the rest of the week.

winfong profile image
winfong in reply to Miserere

Yes, your issue is rather different than what the average person has to deal with - way, way too much salt. It's especially a problem over here in the US.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Miserere

I did wonder if it reflected the quality of meat as he maintained steak without salt was particularly bad. I like to taste the food rather than added salt and spices. So many people seem unable to cook or eat food without "recipes" that add sauces and spices. It is maybe being lazy but I expect my meat and fish to taste of meat or fish without a load of add-ons.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to PMRpro

Could be - we get ours straight from the farmer who only sells his own livestock and it's grass fed - wonderful flavour.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Miserere

Like the butchers here,

Satya70 profile image
Satya70

I eat keto and lots of cheese. I’ve always tended to oversalt so I doubt I have a low sodium issue! Maybe high 🤣

Lenore58 profile image
Lenore58 in reply to Satya70

Exact same here!

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed

It's certainly more common on a strict Keto or Paleo diet.One reason is, as Pro says , it promotes fluid loss , and you can lose both Water and Sodium.

You still need to take care to drink enough water on these diets even if you need to increase salt intake.

Personally, I'm not a lover of Keto , Paleo or Carnivore Diets they are too restrictive and extended use of them can cause nutrients deficiencies and digestive issues from the reduction of fibre.

Personally, to me, a moderate version of a low carb diet with good fats, dairy or dairy free alternatives , and a wide variety of nutrient rich vegetables with some fruit , a Mediterranean style of diet, has a more sustainable effect both in weight loss and in the long term.

A recent study for Cardiac Health also concluded that this is a better option and that care had to be taken with all types of LowCarb*High Fat diets to ensure that enough nutrients and fibre were consumed and that sensible choices were made about the quality and types of proteins and fats consumed using these diet options to protect Cardiovascular Health.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to Blearyeyed

Makes sense - thanks - although I know the keto diet has helped - carnivore I'm not so sure for me.

Gimme profile image
Gimme in reply to Blearyeyed

That's pretty close to what I do. Low carb, but not keto, I balance my carb intake with the amount of energy I intend to expend. I am strict on no added sugar. I also try to avoid saturated fats as much as practicable and avoid inflammatory foods, such as cured meats. My one vice is to have real butter, if I make a sandwich. I very much doubt that I would ever be able to stick to keto, and I have no wish to try, but the way I eat is sustainable, whilst giving me all the nutrients that I need. My weekly grocery shop is 95% single ingredient items, so I prefer to describe my diet as a real food diet. Processed foods are the food of the devil, as far as I am concerned. My only misgiving is that I think that my protein intake might be a little high, but if you are not eating carbs, you have to get the calories somehow and protein keeps you from getting hungry and over eating.

Pippah45 profile image
Pippah45

My father and grandmother both ate a LOT of salt on their food and both lived well into their 90s. I also love my salt however only sea salt and blood results always within range. I get cramps all over my body if I try reducing.

Good luck with the knee op. I had a new hip last year and knees heading that way.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to Pippah45

Thank you Pippah45! And good luck when it comes to your knees!

JudithWarrior profile image
JudithWarrior

can I ask what motivated you to do a Leto diet? Was it just weight loss or other factors. My nutritionist has encouraged me to do the paleo diet to identify any foods that might be adding inflammation to my body but it’s so drastic I can’t face it. It’s such hard work to find the time to do it that emotionally I can’t get there. I have never eaten processed meals, always cooked from scratch, have a fairly healthy diet with loads of veg, hardly any bread, lots of oily fish etc etc but the thought of increasing meat and fish intake to every meal to get enough protein - as that is the only source- is horrid. Fish or meat for breakfast etc. and I’m not sure about the elimination of dairy. I now have osteoporosis so a bit of live yoghurt and my homemade kefir are an important source for me. There are so many factors to take in that I’m trying to balance all of these and do my own diet plan. However I would love to know whether there are any foods that cause me inflammation. I’m convinced alcohol and sugar are 2 of the worst culprits.

Has anyone tried the Zoe app? I’d be interested to know other peoples experiences.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to JudithWarrior

I found out that I was pre-diabetic - no thanks to my GP who told me nothing. The obvious diet to deal with that was the ketogenic diet and it worked extremely well. I don't eat much in the way of dairy as that can be an allergen - I do have coconut yoghurt and a small amount of cheese. I consulted a nutritionist and he encouraged me to eat a lot more protein and now I do. Breakfast can be poached smoked haddock with an egg on top; smoked salmon or mackerel on top of an avocado salad; bacon and egg, bacon and liver, shakshouka - all sorts of things. Omlettes are an easy go to. I only eat one other meal during the day - I can't do three meals - two are enough.

I agree, sugar and alchohol which inevitably contains a lot of sugar are main culprits (unless you drink straight spirits - which I don't). However I obviously have a long-standing problem with fibre and maybe some other things which, for some reason, stops things moving for me. Until fairly recently I ate a lot of vegetables but since trying the carnivore diet (albeit briefly) I realised that they are not the answer. Even as a child my mother was forever giving me castor oil (I can still taste the flavour), that ex-lax chocolate which wouldn't fool a 4 year old, syrup of figs, Andrews ... and the list goes on. Nothing wrong with the veg - dad grew it in the garden - I've just always been the same. I'd love to find out the culprit.

The GP surgery decided I had high BP some years ago - practice nurse this was. I told her I suffered with white coat syndrome but she wouldn't listen and went on and on about how bad it would be to have a heart attack. I ended up on calcium channel blockers - for one week only - before I took them back and told her I would not take anything else. My entire system came to a grinding halt and I found myself sitting and waiting for the next heart beat. So, you see, I avoid the GP surgery like the plague unless it's absolutely essential.

Sorry, bit of a long explanation. I still think the PK diet is a good one but I shall gradually bring in more veg and, obviously, I now have to increase salt; something that I cut back severely due to the panic reaction of the practice nurse. BP now OK I'm glad to say.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Miserere

To be honest , if you have various health issues and the possibility of diabetes or are diabetic the keto diet isn't the healthy option.You certainly shouldn't do it if you are Type 1 Diabetic because they require more carbs per meal than is allowed on a extreme diet to prevent Ketosis from occurring, but it isn't the best way to improve your insulin sensitivity and blood sugar levels if you are Type 2 or Prediabetic either.

They are also not recommended for people with Cardiovascular problems, Hypertension and Digestive Conditions among many other chronic conditions.

Better options are the moderate weight loss recommendations on the DiabetesUK website , the Newcastle Protocol and a moderate version of the Fast 800. Especially as these diets can accommodate a wide variety of tastes and needs but the recipes can also be used as a 'Diet for Life' after weight loss. And they allow for the occasional guilt free treat .

People forget that most of these extreme diet options were created to be used by people with no preexisting health conditions , or the generally healthy population.

The better programmes using the low carb protocols were also at their extreme only meant to be used for very short term periods 1-2 weeks before transitioning to a maintenance weight loss plan which contain net carb between 24-50 g per day , increasing to to 60-85g per day once a target weight is reached depending on how active your lifestyle is.

Diets recommending net carbs under 20g are not considered healthy if people look further at the medical research.

The amount of carbs set on many diets are too low and these very low levels should only be used for a few weeks before transitioning to eating the amount of complex carbs you require daily for optimal body functioning.

That isn't the same for everyone as is oversimplified in extreme diet plans but should be based on gender , size , age , medical history and daily activity. Many of these diets do not include the right amount of vitamins and minerals or fibre we require for our daily needs , especially with chronic health issues.

Weight loss , no matter what diet is used has one basic principle it happens if we eat less calories per day than we use up in activity and body functioning.

I was having an interesting chat with people on a heart forum on a different platform about the Carnivore Diet recently. We came to the conclusion, after reading the website materials and watching some of the YouTube videos of its biggest supporters that people should probably steer clear of diets promoted mainly by Ex Doctors trying to tout books and Muscle Men whom seem to think it's fine to shout at people for buying vegetables , cook shirtless , and appear to believe that our ancestors lived on Bronto Burgers and Mammoth Drumsticks like Fred Flintstone!😆😆😆

My new motto when discussing diets these days has become , " Eat For Life : Don't Fad About"

Take care , Bee

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to Blearyeyed

Thanks for your thoughts and good wishes, Bee. As far as I know I was only prediabetic. The BP was mainly white coat syndrome and, thanks to keto, is now resolved.

Keto is very similar to the 'low starch' diets that were popular in a much earlier generation (sometimes called 'Banting'). For instance, an old aunt was told to cut starch - bread, potatoes etc. and eat more vegetables and protein plus some fruit (sounds very similar doesn't it?) In those days (back in the 50s/60s) rice came in puddings and pasta was a 'foreign food.' The along came Ancel Keys (American) who wanted to make a name for himself and the Americans also happened to want to sell more grain at the time - he did a very 'selective' study that proved what he wanted it to prove - low fat and high carbs were the answer! Saturated fat was the enemy!

I started with the 5:2 and lost some weight; a chiropractor recommended cutting carbs further and Dr Sarah Myhill, for me, was a real help as she identified the pre-diabetes which was quickly dealt with using keto. As I did further research I found people who had reduced their inflammation levels using carnivore and fasting. So, I tried carnivore for a few days - not for me and I freely admit it. I shall return to very low carb - particularly at present as I am awaiting a knee replacement and so am not very mobile and therefore using fewer calories.

I have always eaten saturated fat to some extent when it comes with meat and when necessary will always use butter. I eat fatty fish happily and I use avocado oil for cooking or lard (shock, horror for many) but they are natural ingredients. I do not use olive oil or any other seed oils for cooking - I use them in dressings.

One can make what one wants from reading websites and others' points of view - we all weigh up what we think are the pros and cons but until we try these things ourselves we will never know. I am happy to try something and then admit it's not for me rather than accept what others say. If it works for me then great! I don't trust GP's outlook on diet as, even Michael Mosley admits, they study it for less than a day! Something needs to change drastically in GP training, methinks- but then so much probably needs to change.

I well remember Audrey Eaton and the F-plan diet - absolute murder for me as the fibre has always had the opposite of the desired effect and this has been the case throughout my life. So, as you say, we are all different and probably need to find our own ways. I am finding mine through experience which I prefer. I can soon discard something that does not suit whilst learning from others' experience as well.

Thanks again, Bee, for taking the time to respond - I appreciate it.

Blearyeyed profile image
Blearyeyed in reply to Miserere

Yes , often your GP will have little knowledge on diet and exercise regimes. I agree , we are all different and depending on our health issues the diets or natural treatments we try need to be thoroughly researched too. We can weigh up the pros and cons from looking at reputable websites , but generally speaking, we need to take a more detailed view of the medical research about diets or supplements and their effects on our illnesses before going ahead.

Unlike the generally healthy population that these diets are tested upon , the "if we don't try it we'll never know" approach, can be a highly detrimental for people with preexisting health conditions or on certain types of medication. Knowledge is key to getting the balance right.

I'm certainly not against trying out or trialing everything I can to improve my overall health , but the key phrase there is "everything I can" , and in many cases research proves that there are many things that I can't just give a shot at.

As you said, your BP issue was 'white coat syndrome' so Keto wouldn't have been the cause that it improved in that case.

Depending on a person's diet prior to Keto , many factors can contribute to a person reversing prediabetic status while on it, much the same as on other less restrictive regimes.

The initial reduction in inflammation most people experience can also be attributed to elimination of processed foods and sugar rather than highly restricted carbs .

In a respected 2019 study , Keto like carb restriction has been proven to increase the risk of Atrial Fibrillation 18 times more than moderate complex carb intake no matter which protein or fat types were consumed , and to increase inflammation when used in the long term.

It has also been shown to slow the metabolism after early weight loss and reduce lean muscle mass if done for an extended period. Especially, if it can't be counterbalanced with an adequate amount of strength training which may be possible for the healthy but not for people whom need to limit their activity to manage their illnesses.

After reading that and a few other studies I knew Keto or very low carb / high fat options weren't for me.

I don't know which Keto Diet you have used but Keto is very much stricter than the lowering of starchy foods and moderated carb intake of the Banting Diet. It is that level of carb restriction and highly increased fat content which makes it inappropriate for people with various health issues. Banting is a little more like the Mediterranean Cardiac Diet in its portion size of food groups on the plate.

I have various digestive problems and find that insoluble fibre makes my IBS - C worse , but soluble fibre and hydration improves it. The F Plan would have been a nightmare for me too.

I'm also one of the unfortunate people whom suffer with cardiovascular issues and the common but under diagnosed condition of hypercholesterolemia so excess saturated fat and cholesterol is a big No, No for me.

I'm glad that Sarah Myhill helped you but I'm afraid I'm not a fan.

I've read her work and some of her theories and writing are interesting in terms of Chronic Fatigue/ME.

And although many of the GMC complaints about her are because of what could be considered understandable prescription violations , a number of serious ones were not hence her need to move into private practice.

The complaint which caused her latest suspension was the straw the broke the camels back for me.

To state in social media that the unresearched supplement based COVID "Cure" that she was selling from her website, "rendered the vaccine irrelevant", was ,as they ruled, contrary to the public health at the time , and rather distastefully preyed on people's fears and desperation at a traumatic time in my opinion.

I am all for groundbreaking research ( I've even been a participant in numerous studies) but not potentially dangerous rule breaking.

Good Luck with your search , hopefully you will find which foods effect you more than others soon, take care , Bee

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to Blearyeyed

I'm glad you've found what suits you too.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to JudithWarrior

There is a post about the ZOE app

healthunlocked.com/pmrgcauk...

The whole protein thing is grossly overegged - if you will excuse the pun!

mayoclinichealthsystem.org/...

and they actually give examples of what to eat to get 25-30g protein per meal to spread the required 90g per day over the day which is the ideal. There is little point eating excessive amounts of protein - it is just stored as fat,

A 2-egg omelette is 2x6g protein even before you add a bit of cheese or bacon/ham or whatever.

However - I would take your "nutritionist's" advice with a pinch of salt - because I dont think it will identfy what foods are "adding inflammation" - other than what we already KNOW that carbs, simple sugars in particular, are pro-inflammatory. In PMR what is adding inflammation to your body is an autoimmune disorder. No food will stop that, either by eating it or not, Call me a sceptic if you like.

Rugger profile image
Rugger in reply to PMRpro

An egg contains 5 - 7.5g of protein, depending on size, so the 26g protein in a 2-egg omelette must include some protein-containing filling.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Rugger

Oops, sorry, misread the nutrition list!!!! You are quite right.

Gimme profile image
Gimme in reply to PMRpro

" I would take your "nutritionist's" advice with a pinch of salt " tee hee 😅😅😅

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Gimme

Obviously food on my mind ...

G-Jo profile image
G-Jo in reply to PMRpro

Let me add the kidney problems that have been associated with too much animal protein, on top of the cardiovascular risks, and the fact that too much protein turns into fat. No one has mentioned the kidney angle yet. Our number 1 killer is heart disease, so getting our protein needs mainly from plant sources instead of saturated fat animal sources is wise. There is more than adequate protein in beans, legumes, nuts, seeds, and even vegetables to meet the needs of humans, including athletes. View the documentary "Game Changers" to learn about many athletes who have improved their game by switching to a Whole Food, Plant-Based diet. The Blue Zones of the world (longest living healthy populations) focus on that, and include animal protein as a condiment, not the main dish. For those with digestive upset issues, the rule is: Go low and slow. In other words, add small amounts of these plant protein sources, and very gradually build up as your microbiome adapts. Our good gut bugs need fiber, phytochemical and antioxidants to function well, and these are found mainly in plant sources. There are two types of carbs: simple and complex. The simple ones cause problems, because they are mostly refined and sugar-laden, stripped of protective fiber and phytochemical. The complex ones contain those protective elements and are found in whole intact grains. Yes, you can lose weight on a Keto program, but in the long run you might possibly be harming your overall health. In my humble opinion, it is better to eat more clean plant food, which is loaded with anti-inflammatory compounds -- you will lose the weight and will be at the same time healing your body instead of harming it. My husband lost 40 pounds, improved his heart health tremendously, and has kept it off for 9 years now with no problem.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to G-Jo

It is not just a weight loss problem. The low carb approach we suggest is because being on pred changes all the goalposts as pred triggers the liver to release random spikes of glucose from body stores and predisposes you to developing steroid induced diabetes, The spikes mean more insulin is produced in response - and isn't all used up as no meal follows the spike. That then stores any sugar as fat. You can't do anything about the random spikes - but you can control the carbs and sugar you are eating. It isn't as simple as just eating plant food as a few of our members who are diabetic or were veggie or vegan anyway.

G-Jo profile image
G-Jo in reply to PMRpro

Thank you for your insights. Quick question: are the random glucose spikes related to how much prednisone you are taking, and/or how long you’ve been on pred? Are you more prone to them if you are on a higher dose or if you’ve been on pred for a longer time? I read also that this can be more problematic if you are predisposed to type 2, such as having a family history of the disease or being in the obese weight range. Also interesting reading is the suspicion that fat gums up the “keyhole” and that insulin has a difficult time escorting glucose into cells because the lock is cannot be opened. Fiber in food, found in complex carbs and vegetables produces a slower gradual rise in blood sugar compared to simple sugars such as pastries. I’d like to know how that all sorts out with very low dose pred added to the mix. Monitoring blood sugar levels while on pred sounds like a very good idea.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to G-Jo

Blood sugar levels should be monitored when on pred using the Hba1c which reflects the average levels over about 3 months. Random testing is a bit pointless as the spikes are also random and vary from patient to patient. You might test at a point before a spike and it looks fine but a few minutes later it could be really high. A few people have established that they have a window related to when they take pred where their BS runs high and find it helps to avoid eating during that time.

I don't know if anyone has looked at the relationship between pred dose and spike size - it varies between people anyway, My Hba1c has never been raised, even when I wasn't being particularly careful about carbs.

As far as weight management is concerned, carbs are carbs so whether they are simple or complex carbs isn't as important. But I imagine you would have to have a constant monitor to establish other relationships.

You might find this interesting

healthunlocked.com/pmrgcauk...

G-Jo profile image
G-Jo in reply to PMRpro

Yes, I read that article awhile ago, very interesting. There is so much good information here on this site, much more than I've gotten from the doctor!

Grannymiaow profile image
Grannymiaow

Last year I had low sodium as a result of taking Lisinopril for high BP.

I had been on it for years.

The low sodium only showed up when I collapsed at home, and was blue-lighted to hospital.

Treated with sodium drip, low fluid intake, and, most importantly, a change in BP med.

So it is a very good thing your sodium has shown up without dramas.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to Grannymiaow

Wow! Absolutely. Hopefully I can get it to rise. She did say it was only just below normal.

Bambam67 profile image
Bambam67

Many of us take Omeprazole and this can cause low sodium, particularly as you become older. My mum (no pmr/GCA) had to change to a different medication.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to Bambam67

Hmm ... I decided not to take it and so far have been OK

Bramble2000 profile image
Bramble2000

Are you using a high quality pink Himalayan salt? I would if I were you. X

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to Bramble2000

I am using Dr Sarah Myhill's Sunshine Salt - sea salt based with all the eletrolytes and added minerals. I have checked and it does provide everything that is needed at an affordable price. Thanks.

Logic profile image
Logic

I had low sodium when I first got PMR in 2018 and had to get a sodium transfusion. I was under the impression that it sometimes was part of the PMR. It never got as bad as the first time but if you do have this, you are told to limit fluid intake..I forget how much you are allowed. Both my rheumatologist and primary care seemed very familiar with this happening as did the docs in the hospital. It can become serious if you are older. I was told adding extra salt does not help although I do use it as an excuse to eat pizza and chips. Hahaha.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to Logic

Gosh, that's interesting, Logic. I've not heard that before and it's something I will ask about. I wonder if it is to do with the PMR or the steroids. Again, she did say it was only just below normal and I have increased my electrolyte salt in the hope it will improve things - time will tell. So have you suffered since the first time? I do tend to drink quite a bit of water so perhaps I need to cut that down a little as well.

PMRpro profile image
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Miserere

How much water - that is a common cause of low sodium with the large amounts some people say we need - and don't actually! They forget that a lot of fluid intake is in food, And too much water is as bad as too little, especially if you have dodgy renal function.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to PMRpro

I think you are right, PMRpro - I probably drink up to 2 litres/day which was advised some time ago and I probably don't need as much so I will reduce that. I drink little caffeine and stick rather to water so I bet this, together with a low salt diet, may have caused the problem.

phebamom profile image
phebamom

The American Standard Diet, or SAD, as it is called, (aptly named) is so loaded with sodium. I am in kidney failure with stage 3B kidney disease. I am also a vegetarian, per doctors orders. My kidneys can no longer process the creatinine in meat. Guess what we do for a living; we are grass fed beef farmers. ha ha. I have two deep freezers full of the stuff. I am not having a difficult time being a vegetarian. I do have to become creative to avoid a lot of sodium. The Paleo diet is a bad ideal for me, and for anyone with a kidney GFR under 60. Also, and I did not know this prior to this diagnosis, beef has about 400mg. of sodium per 4 oz. serving. The sodium is naturally in the meat. I did some internet reading and read where someone posted to avoid potatoes with CKD (chronic kidney disease). My kidney doctor told me to eat potatoes. My blood potassium level is normal. I am thinking that the solution is different for every person, depending on blood levels and the way we each process the chemicals in food. For me it is creatinine, My kidneys no longer process it. For someone else it may be potassium. I envy you the need to actually ingest sodium. I avoid it like the plague and my blood sodium levels stay normal. If I eat out my knees swell so much I can't bend them. I do an electric leg pump every day for an hour to prevent lymphedema in legs . my BMI is 25 so not bad. One treat I enjoy is low sodium Triscuit crackers with a bit of melted white cheese, and McCormick sodium free Vegetable seasoning on top. Makes a yummy cracker. The kidney doctor said white cheese is better than yellow for kidneys. I do not know why. Since potatoes and cheese are two favorite foods i'll take it. As far as I can tell, the kidney failure is not being caused by the PMR/GCA, which I have had for over 20 years. I have a blood condition called MGUS. The kidney doctor suspects something called MGRS, where the MGUS is attacking my kidneys. I am scheduled for a kidney biopsy to verify as soon as we can get my BP down

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to phebamom

Wow, phebamom! It just goes to show how different we all are, doesn't it? I was vegan for two years (some time ago) and didn't miss meat etc. as I was never a big meat eater - I've had to learn to eat more meat/animal protein now and I still prefer fish but I have both for diversity's sake.

The vegan diet made me feel great but since nutritionists and drs have called it the 'when you ate nothing' diet. I can understand that there were nutrients missing, though, and just do my best now and research and try things as they seem feasible. Fortunately I have a farmer like you nearby - he raises and sells his own grass fed animals and looks after them incredibly well. I didn't know that beef contained so much sodium either - that's quite a revelation.

Your BMI is not far from mine which is 23 - so neither of us are in bad shape from that point of view. I am sorry to hear that any level of sodium causes you so many problems - that must sometimes make life uncomfortable.

It just shows that there is a 'middle way' somewhere. For some that is leaning more to the right and for others toward the left whilst some can go straight down the middle as far as diet is concerned. I think we all have to learn which suits us best.

I decided not to stay on carnivore - I had a feeling it would not suit me but was willing to give it a go. I did learn that my digestive system worked better on it and I shall stay lower as regards fibre. I used to make linseed bread and add chia seeds to things etc. but none of them helped my digestive systmem to work better; in fact I feel they had the opposite effect.

I don't know much about MGUS although it seems to do with a protein in the bone marrow. I hope you are able to reduce the BP soon - I assume you eat beetroot as that seems to help. And you've had PMR for 20 years - gosh, that's a long time. Well done you, you are coping with a lot! I don't think we were always given the best dietary advice by the 'powers that be' - it always depends on the influence of the food industry and, to some extent the pharmaceutical industry.

I'd love to keep up with your journey and wish you the best of everything. Thank you for responding.

phebamom profile image
phebamom in reply to Miserere

The worst part is I spent years blaming myself, poor diet, too much worry. I am a worrier. I blamed the PMR/GCA on a life time of trauma. Truth is, I think that while trauma can be a contributing factor to all of this, most of it is just crappy genes and plain bad luck. I do not know what started the MGUS, or what would have made it become MGRS, but I now know it is not my fault. It just is what it is. The hardest part is that with any chronic disease we have to constantly reinvent our self. That can be exhausting. Bp this morning was 185/107. Kidney doctor just prescribed a Clonipin patch. I wear the patch for a week, then apply a new patch. It makes sense as I have chronic dyspepsia. Some of the meds were making me very ill. Plus, with the dyspepsia I am wondering how much of the BP meds I was actually absorbing. So, we shall see. we will be scheduling a kidney biopsy as soon as we can get the BP down so it is safe to do.

Daprince profile image
Daprince

When I started a keto diet 6 years ago, no one told me that I needed to replenish my electrolytes...it is pretty common knowledge now that you need to get in magnesium, potassium and sodium if you are doing keto. Otherwise, you will end up with what is called "keto flu" or have legs cramps, etc.

Miserere profile image
Miserere in reply to Daprince

Absolutely, Daprince - No-one mentioned that to me either! I have electrolyte salt and a mineral mix that includes everything as well. The GP advising low salt (as they all do) did not help either. Onward and upward 😂

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