Where can I find the details on how or why Hydroxo is better or longer lasting and by how much longer lasting is it marketed as being . . . . .
I think many need the details of the supposed advantages of Hydroxo. . . . . I certainly have bought and used a lot of Hydroxo based on "supposed" and I think a lot pf people have done the same. . . . I didnt like the cyanide idea but then discovered it is so small as to be compared to eating an apple. . .And as I have used loads of various products with cyanide such as paint and various polyurethane sealants I dont find the word cyanide as perhaps other do. . . . . The first B12 I used was Cyano and then I moved to hydroxo. . . . . After reading and especially Clivealive posts/answers I decided I'd go back and try Cyano again with no adverse results either in effectivess or lasting shorter period of time which I have trouble with the idea of being a daily SI. . . .
In the past 2 odd years I have always had both. . . . . There may be some benefit for some on either but I honestly see no odds . . . . .
I may not be alone . . . . I hope. . . . . .
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OldmanD
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Something interesting to think about regarding higher retention being better, is that this would NOT be the case if the high serum B12 levels were because of antibodies to TC2 (the active carrier protein for B12), which causes high serum levels but impairs the ability to deliver that B12 to cells, as in this paper:
Circulating antibody to transcobalamin II causing retention of vitamin B12 in the blood
That is heavy going for me .. . . .. Only had a quick look but confusing none the less . . . . I got quickly led into other old data from the above and one thing that recurs is the amount % retained not being linked to the amount given which would be my personal experience . . . . . It tsuggests that the more you take the every more vast the excretion rates. . . . . . That would seem to be similar to those who are given a cyanokit which is many 1000s of times our normal 1000ug yet the most of it leaves the body in hours .. . . . .All of the data seems to be old . . .Too old and too techincally worded . . . . . It is research paper stuff and correct at time though. . . . . . If I give myself roughly 500ug or slightly more the product works fine. . . .Hence I keep writing I use 600/650 which as best I know is half a 1500ug ampoule but the cavities waste a little as do some purges for air so I kinda figured I must use about 6/650ish. . . . . .1000/1500ug has no further effect and does not last any longer. . . . . I do use 1000ug in 1ml of Cyano and splitting that as close to half an half is not much different. . . . . . If however I only use as best I could see 250ug it quickly becomes apparent I dont have enough . . . . . I did tried yesterday and today splitting 1000ug into two doses morn and eve but it is way to soon to say how I feel as every day is far from the same and anything stress, exertion can alter the demand we seem to have . . . . . But nevertheless . . irrespective of Hydroxo or Cyano a larger dose is of little value it seems . . . . I am aware that the term "stronger" used by some in reference to the 1500ug ampoules with 5mg ampoule as far as I am concerned being off the plot. . . . . . . And if we are injecting as often as once per day is there any real odds, , , , The 3rd paper I dont know enough about the various systems/workings as I am a complete novice in this field but will rely on you with this. . . . . . Is that saying that some people have antobodies to TC2 while others dont. .. . And that differnt people can possibly be effect in opposing ways. . . . . . Baer with me cause I am interested but def not a scientist. . . . . I love science though but my science is more electrical/mechanical. . . . . I can make more sense of an IGBT than cobalamin. . . . . . .
I am an Emeritus professor and that means I was able to get this full journal paper from my university library: Studies on Vitamin B12 Retention Comparison of Retention Following Intramuscular Injection of Cyanocobalamin and Hydroxocobalamin. What they did was to compare over 48 hours how much of each type of B12 was excreted in the urine. The cycanocobalamin was excreted much faster than the hydroxocobalamin. My concerns about the paper is that they assume that peeing it out faster is bad. But they injected close to 1000mcg and the daily dose was assumed to be 5mcg. So the amount injected was massive compared to how much people need each day. My other concern is that the excretion was only measured over 48 hours. They come to a conclusion that Cyanocobalamin should be injected every month but every 3 months is sufficient for Hydroxocobalamin. But they did not provided any evidence that our bodies are able to store then use the extra B12 over a period of 1-3 months. After 48 hours, 75% of the Hydrocobalamin is retained but only 20% of the Cyanocobalamin. But even 20% is 200mcg, and with a daily dose of 5mcg this is still a lot. The article contains no information about the availability of each type of B12 after 48 hours.
Thats the kind of stuff I am getting. . . . Technoids earlier post is good, good work to find such. . . . I can find so little that is relevant but is a good example of how old much research really is. . . . . I have read various tests over the past few years and there are all sorts. . . . . .Ones wrtten in laymans terms. . . . . . As few of us who suffer have the ability to absorb technical stuff and need it in reliable terms we can deal with. . . . . We need to be able to understand in order to make judgements cause there are no others to do so for us. . . . . One thing I noticed .. . . . . . 3 months???. . . . . 1000ug div 90days is 11ug per day. . . . . . . Convenient??. maybe. . . . . . If you ask some doctors you could get that very answer. . . . . . 10/11ug per day is more than the body needs. . . . . . If you continue along the subject for several minutes and place a suggestion about the possibility of excess B12 the same doctor will tell you that you simply pee out excess???? . . . Contrary. . . So where are people who cannot absorb B12 left. . . . . I dont believe even healthy people can absorb and store 100ug let alone a sick person absorb and store 1000ug. . . . . . . . . People who require injections obviously cannot store/re-absorb B12. . . . . . . It is nonsense and I agree with you. . . . . Quoting 48hrs and then 3 months I dont think will mae any sense to anyone let alone those people reading here. . . . . A cynokit is 5000000ug of hydroxo and you will excrete that in similar time so the % is almost all and if the person in not B12D then it will be all . . . . . . A test in australia using a radio marker in the earlier 70s I think it was showed almost all cobalamin was excreted in less than 72 hours. . . . . . .A later test in the US using modern equipment showed a little longer on hydroxo. . . . To me 3 months has not been proven. . . . . But aside from any of that the point of my question was how much, how long.. . . . . . . I need someone to show me that Hydroxo outlasts Cyano by weeks or at least a week. . . . . . For those who inject every day my amateur opinion is based on my experience that 600ug ish is more than ample for most if not all. . . . . . I know we are not all the same. . . . No odds how sick you are the body only needs 3 to 5ug per day. . . . . . That I think is pretty well settled in science . . . All things I have read do seem to support the idea that whether the injection is 1000ug or 5000ug the body grabs its little bit while it can. . . . Once the excess goes around a few times we excrete the rest. . . . . . We are not able to retain excess so we really have a short time to grab a couple of micrograms per day or two or three and by the looks of it neither Hydroxo nor Cyano go a load further. . . . . But everyone is different. . . . . But we can only be so much differnt. . . . . . . I am still back with my problem. . . . . . Is there any point is spending extra money on product when so many of us SI every day or other day. . . . . Please keep posting info or ideas . . . . . . . I am sure I cannot be alone
I don't think you can just divide the amount you put in by a number of days. The problem with either type of B12 is that a lot of it is excreted in the first 48 hours. It is also unclear if our bodies are still able to store B12 like a normal person when there is an excess and then to use it later. I think what makes the most sense, especially with the wide variation on how long the B12 seems to last, is to monitor symptoms and choose a frequency that is often enough to keep the symptoms at bay.
I am aware you shouldnt just divide the 1000ug by 90 days. . . . But that is what some doctors will do in attempt to justify 3 month intervals.. . . . They quote you getting 1000ug every 90 days and that is 10/11ug per day . . . . . Complete rubbish I know and they may know that too but that doesnt stop some from bamboozling patients. . . . It seems any old reason will do to get you out the door . . . . . . Storage is no problem to those with proper IF etc but those who suffer with B12D I think we know do not store, cant store surplus. . . . . We know there is a roundabout the B12 goes around where it enters the blood, gets removed and reabsorbed into the blood but without a proper working system it is simply excreted. . . . . Correct me if I am wrong. . . . . I frequently am . . . . . .Maybe at the beginning of symptoms we still possess an ability to process or absorb oral B12 . . . . . There was a period after I crashed in my 40s I ate serious amounts of supplements and beef. . . . . Craving for beef . . . . . I kinda recovered and went back to work for 7 years before I was diagnosed with B12D but it eventually fell apart. . . .There are various reasons for falling apart but I knew I was running down again and could do nothing about it. . . . . . May 2011. . . . . . So during that period I think/feel that I was still able to absorb, I dont know about store. . . . I kept slowly waning . . . . I think there really needs be fresh research based around todays needs. . . . I think everything I read is based on stopping people dyeing at minimal expense. . . I have not seen any tests using anything like an accepted number of people, accepted practice using double blind methods etc nor any consideration to neuro problems. . . . . . Everything I see is almost like process of elimination of sorts with a little knowledge helping those medics who are interested/believe without which no others would be aware of anything. . . . .It really is stunning given that so much rests on such a cheap and easy product. . . . Maybe that is the problem. . . . . Cheap. . . . . . . Anyhow. . . . . Thanks again for input. . . . Anything new put it up please . . . . . `
I did well on sublingual B12 for many years. But eventually I did not and now I need injections. I think for some people, if they are taking 1000mcg per day, a tiny amount is absorbed. But for other people, injections are necessary.
We are kinda crossing over in our posts here but thats the way it is . . . . . In the 1990's I did not know what was wrong with me nor did any medics. . . . . People would say take this, take that. . . . This is whats wrong with you . . . Thats is whats wrong with your my aunt had that too. . . . . I did though get multivitamins and I did go quite extreme certainly well over the RDA. . . . . .Several times over the RDA. . . I had had a liking for beef, primarily roast beef most of my life but it grew into an almost obsession, unquenchable craving. . . . . I was worse than any pregnant woman. . . . . I'd be stopping on my way to work and buying sliced roast beef and I'd have it scoffed before I'd evern arive at work and I'd swear I could not exist wothout it . . . . . . I dont know how corrct I was but that is how I remember that period , . . . . As I felt a little better I'd just take more, eat more until I was able to take a job again. . . . . I waned over the period but then took a sore foot/toes. . . . . GP said to stop eating red meat . . . . . I thought nothing of it and followed orders. . . . . I think that was my downfall althouhgh it was probably coming anyhow. . . . . .
I hope you are able to change your moniker to V.OldmanD at this point in the history of the human race having navigated The Pandemic!?
I just wanted to say your last comment on 'cheap n' easy' says it all - B 12 can't have a patent for the 'powers that be' to monetise beyond their wildest dreams. Same with all naturally occurring remedies. That is why their availability is being restricted or poisoned.
NB I just realised I was feeling like death since losing access to B12 from GP during the pandemic and only SI'd sporadically. I SI'd this morning and feel like a new woman!! I wanted to check why I have Hydroxo and not Cyano in my cupboard and found the answer here. So thank you everyone for all of your research and efforts.
Regarding: Patient Variation in Pernicious Anaemia, as Shown in a Clinical Trial of Cyanocobalamin, Hydroxocobalamin and Cyanocobalamin–Zinc Tannate. In this research, the effect of the B12 was monitored for a much longer period of time for the different types of B12. One limitation of the study though is that there was only 12 participants. One thing that is interesting to me (that you might observe as well on this forum) is that there was an extremely wide variation in the amount of time for which the participants maintained blood levels of at least 100 pg./ml. The effect from the cyanocobalamin did not last as long as for hydroxocobalamin. My main conclusion from this is that if you are using cyanocobalamin, you probably need injections more often than if you are using hydroxocobalamin.
This char is showing the number of weeks it took for the B12 concentrations to be low.
That is similar or same info as Technoid posted earlier in his 3rd link I think is it not. . . . . . I may be wrong so correct me if I am. . . . . . While I can accept that Hydroxo may last a bit longer and it is "closer" to natural but there are no naturals I dont have any problem with that. . . . . It really is pretty hard even for an amateur to think that such research could hold much credence or be accepted today. . . . .I dont doubt those who were carrying out the tests at the time but really aspirin has had more follow up research in the past year I'd bet than Hydroxo V Cyano or anything to do with them has remotely had similar in decades . . . . . . .We have came to accept that these things have to be published in a manner that most can understand and that at least appear fair and level grounded as we'd say here . . . . I have read Technoids links severl times since this morning and while he may understand such I dont think there will be many here can even show enough interest to read past the first para. . . . . We have all read about the lack of research but I think I'd speak for many in saying the research is almost zero. . . . . It is worse than I ever imagined it to be . . . . . To accept such research with flaws/questions as pointed out by yourself and Technoid today would not be accepted yet obviously the teaching of such has continued all these years. . . . . . If we are to believe that hydroxo lasts longer even by 12 or 24hrs we would have to then assume that users will find the difference yet so many users have to use Hyroxo every day and there are a few of who use both and cannot see much if any difference. . . . . Surely this cannot all be down to little more than "notions". . . . Certainly I get very fed up with these endless needles such that on occasion I simple say "hell with that" only to be regretting my choice often within hours. . . . . . Others have to be the same so if there was a chance of extending the period between jabs many would jump at that . . . . .
I 100% agree that it would be really nice if there was a lot more research. I don't think that enough work has been done to be able to make health guidelines that work for everybody. One problem is that the more informative research is more invasive. In the one paper, they attached some radioactive markers to the B12 and were testing the blood regularly. The wide variation they found in how long the B12 stuck around means that we are all very different and it is going to be hard to find ways to determine best practices for each person. Research progresses in small incremental steps. The work that they did was accepted because it was new at the time and gave insights we did not have before. I think I would call them "limitations" instead of flaws. Researchers need funding for research. The money available can affect the number of participants, how long the follow up period is, and the things that people are able to measure as part of the trial. Doing something is better than doing nothing. Like you though, in my dreams there would be much larger and more comprehensive research projects in this area. One issue is that PA is so treatable now, and people don't seem to care too much that many are being undertreated.
Yes . .Limitations . .. . . It was early days. . . . . . I really never held much hope of extensive research but do wish for such. . . . . What I am left with really is my own experience with using 3 different versions of much the same thing. . . . . . None to me anyhow are any better than each other but I may be alone although I dont think so. . . . I am a one off in that catagory that everything has to be logical . . . . It cannot accept illoglical (mr spock) things easily. . . . . I would never think that I feel crap today that was a bad ampoule this morn because logic tells me there will not be one bad ampoule. . . . In my early days I read everything that came my way. . . . . I am currently at Dr Chandy's B12 Defiency in Clinical Practice which is above my head but I absorb that which I can and it is logical for that which I understand. . . . . I do read things that I cant understand and then I have to google such in an attempt to learn what I am missing. . . . . It doesnt always work for me though . . . . . Some of it is above my head . . . . . I think a few medically minded here should read it. . . . . He was at the forefront of the cause of you will and much he discusses within including the lack of research and knowledge. . . . His establishment (BMA etc) would have crucified him if they could have gotten away with it. . . . . The BBC done a spot with him and his patients and I think that publicity saved him. . . . . . . Anyhow thanks again to you all. . . . . Info even you know it exists does not always jump back up at you when you want it so I know ye's probably had a bit of looking to do to find what you did. . . . . I found things but not those older peices. . . . . .
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