METHYL B6 MethylyCobalamin - Is there a CHEMIST in the house

[GazKaz]

Hi - My first post. By way of brief background ... I have read everthing here on the subject of B12 (Types, injection/oral route etc) and benefited from it - and thank everybody... re their inputs on B12. Also I have read everything I can find on the internet...., plus 2 books - Could It Be B12 & Chandy's B12 Def In Clinical Practice.

This question.... my take a Chemistry Grad (Plus) ... to possibly answer, but

..............................................................................................................................................

" Is there any ... Laymans Method ... to - check if Methyl - Cobalamin POWDER is Methyl and not .... for example .... Hydroxy or Cyano Powder"

..............................................................................................................................................

The reason being - they ALL tend to look the same - ie like cayenne pepper.

- BUT THE COST Differs Markedly.

- And also the benefits/effect will differ too.

Obviously a chemistry expert - may commonly know.... that if say you add household X... to Y - the solution should turn blue - or say go clear. Or closer to the question - if you add X? to ..... MethylCobalamin

- because of the METHYL Group then ... ?? should happen.... (which wouldn't happen in NON Methyl B12's).

Hope the question makes sense.... & obviously in the real world ..... there are unscroupulous sellers who will pass off Cheap CyanoCobalamin .... for more expensive versions.

Thanks in advance regards - GazKaz

Tags - B12 - methycobalamin - cobalamin - hydroxycobalamin - cyanocobalamin - Methyl B12

[fbirder]

I'm a chemist and I know of no simple method to determine if a particular sample is methylcobalamin or hydroxocobalamin. If I were still working I could do so easily with my mass spectrometer. But that cost £300,000, so they wouldn't let me take it with me when I retired.

The simple way out of the quandary is to stick with cyanocobalamin or hydroxocobalamin.

Methylcobalamin is harder to source, more expensive, less stable, more prone to causing side effects and no more efficacious that cyanocobalamin or hydroxocobalamin.

[GazKaz in reply to fbirder]

Hi fbirder - Thanks for the reply, shame about the mass spectrometer (employers can be tight & stingy ... when it comes to rewards at retirment for so many years of dedicated service)

- agree with "Methylcobalamin is harder to source, more expensive, less stable, more prone to causing side effects and no more efficacious that cyanocobalamin or hydroxocobalamin"

- although on the cyanocobalamin - I have read it adds a step for your body to remove the cyano element and convert to useable forms - and on intramuscalar - a higher percentage is excreted in the first 24hrs than the other two (Hydroxy & Methyl).

When I get into a subject especially one as imprtant as B12, I like to really bottom the subject virtually to the .... absolute n'th degree (as they used to say 70/80's) . The question is one that has been asked of me a couple of times - whilst spreading "The Word" on B12 to frends, family, neighbors etc.

Your answer fully lays the question to rest thank you.

Incidentally thank you also for ...all your input across many of the threads/questions... on the forum (I think I have read most of them along the way .....this forum was vitually if not the first info that got me off on the B12 quest

[fbirder in reply to GazKaz]

No, cyanocobalamin doesn't need an extra step. All forms of B12 must be converted to cob(II)alamin to be of any use in the cell. In fact, as this diagram shows - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl... - it is methylcobalamin that requires one more step than cyanocobalamin of hydroxocobalamin.

Yes, cyanocobalamin is eliminated faster than hydroxocobalamin (my guess is that it is distributed into tissues more slowly, leaving more of it in the blood to be excreted in the urine). But I cannot find any data to compare it to methylcobalamin.

[GazKaz in reply to fbirder]

fbirder Re .....Retention/Excretion Cyano VS Methyl

"An" Opinion

........................................................................................................................

"A major difference between.... methylcobalamin and cyanocobalamin

is the way they are absorbed..... and retained .... within your body.

- another study.... comparing the two forms... reported that- about .... three times...... as much cyanocobalamin... was excreted through urine,

- indicating that ..... methylcobalamin .....may be retained better... within your body"

healthline.com/nutrition/me...

[fbirder in reply to GazKaz]

The study they’re quoting was looking at oral absorption and it was done almost 50 years ago.

There’s other poorly researched stuff as well. Like saying that you need to take methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin (or hydroxocobalamin or cyanocobalamin). That is wrong as methylcobalamin is easily converted to adenosylcobalamin ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[GazKaz in reply to fbirder]

Hi fbirder - the extra step I mentioned earlier re the CYANOCobalamin - was the need - to detoxify the released "Cyanide" element, which from memory needs to use up - a methyl group in the process.

As to loss in urine - after injected i.m at 24hrs - and consequently also retention... for the cyanocobalamin

- "After i. m. injection of about 1 mg CN-B12 and OH-B12, normal subjects ....excreted within 24 hours..... about 80 per cent and.... about 25 per cent, .....respectively, in the urine. This corresponds a retention of about..... 20 per cent CN-B12 .... compared with about 75 per cent OH-B12.

(Whilst again from back in 1964 - I assume human metabolism has not changed much since then)

[fbirder in reply to GazKaz]

There are plenty of cyanide ions floating around the average body. It's quite used to eliminating them. The major (80%) route of elimination is reaction with a sulfur atom to form a thiocyanate ion which is much less toxic.

You get something similar with methylcobalamin as the methyl group has to be converted to methanol - which is also toxic.

Yes, the data you quote shows that cyanocobalamin is eliminated faster than hydroxocobalamin - as I said. But I can find no data to compare methylcobalamin with either of those two. I suspect that scientists don't bother with methylcobalamin in their experiments - because it is less stable, etc. It is also never found in nature except fleetingly.

[GazKaz in reply to fbirder]

Hi fbirder

Re Comment - Methylcobalamin .... is also ...never found... in nature ... except fleetingly.

According to Rutter's B12 Cycle of Transmethylation

METHYLCOBALAMIN - is permanently - and constantly present as it is relentlessly... being ... Recycled

- Within the transmethylation cycle,

"Methylcobalamin.... enzyme donates its ... methyl group to homocysteine,

- the resulting ... B12 enzyme is .... remethylated ... by the less potent methyl donor 5-methyltetrahydro- folate

- thus closing... the cycle"

febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.co...

[fbirder in reply to GazKaz]

Again, that paper is old. The actual working of the methionine synthase reaction have only been worked out in the last decade.

My friend works in a bank. Every day somebody comes in and gives her a million pounds to put in the vault. She takes the cash, walks into the vault and puts the cash in there. My friend is not a millionaire.

Whenever homocysteine is converted to methionine a methyl group is passed from methylfolate to cob(I)alamin, forming methylcobalamin. But that methylcobalamin instantly passes the methyl group on the hCys. Methylcobalamin is present in cells just as much as my friend is a millionaire.

Wikipedia has an explanation as to how the methionine synthase reaction happens that is pretty good - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methi...

"In cobalamin-dependent forms of the enzyme, the reaction proceeds by two steps in a ping-pong reaction. The enzyme is initially primed into a reactive state by the transfer of a methyl group from N5-MeTHF to Co(I) in enzyme-bound cobalamin(Cob), forming methyl-cobalamin(Me-Cob) that now contains Me-Co(III) and activating the enzyme. Then, a Hcy that has coordinated to an enzyme-bound zinc to form a reactive thiolate reacts with the Me-Cob. The activated methyl group is transferred from Me-Cob to the Hcy thiolate, which regenerates Co(I) in cob, and Met is released from the enzyme."

[GazKaz in reply to fbirder]

fbirder - yes indeed... as I said and you quote .." in enzyme-bound

(##Start) cobalamin(Cob), <<

forming >>> methyl-cobalamin(Me-Cob)

..... that now contains Me-Co(III) (Methyly Cobalamin) ..... thiolate reacts with the >>> Me-Cob (Methyl Cobalamin) .

The activated... methyl group... is transferred from

>>> Me-Cob (Methyl Cobalamin) to the Hcy thiolate, .....which .... regenerates Co(I) in >>> cob (See ## START),

.....and Met is released from the enzyme."

AKA - ##Start to ##Start .... Completing "The Cycle" as I said

- and as can be seen.... rather that as you mentioned "Methylcobalamin .... is also ...never found... in nature ... except fleetingly"

- as I said and shown in your above quote

- Methyl Cobalamin... is a permanent player... constantly in play ... in the endless cycle

[clivealive Forum Support in reply to GazKaz]

Hi GazKaz thanks for all the technically interesting (but way above my head) data in this thread but at the end of the day I'm still "clivealive" and aged 78 after 47 years of monthly injections of cyanocobamalin.

I guess that means it works for me whereas Hydroxocobamalin when given in the mid 1980s caused severe allergic reactions so I was swapped back to cynao.

I wish you well

[GazKaz in reply to clivealive]

Hi Clive Good to hear you are well - and that you were way, way ahead of the game with regard to B12 (47yrs! and with no internet to research... amazing) and not just that ... with - monthly (not 3M) injections too. Well done . At the end of the day blood tests are meaningless and as to type, if it works for you - its the only thing that matters. Keep on kickin'

Regards GazKaz

[clivealive Forum Support in reply to GazKaz]

Thank you,

Getting a diagnosis back then was just as difficult as it is now. I had two "Schilling" tests, one in 1968 (inconclusive) and the second in 1972 which proved positive for P.A. and that was 13 years after having two thirds of my stomach removed at the age of 17 in 1959 due to a perforated ulcer.

I think the cyanocobamalin injections are working

[ACritical in reply to GazKaz]

....Incidentally thank you also for ...all your input across many of the threads/questions... on the forum (I think I have read most of them along the way .....this forum was vitually if not the first info that got me off on the B12 quest.

Hear Hear!

[Foggyme Administrator]

GazKaz. We don't recommend methylcobalamin powder for injection.

Here's a post about that from earlier today:

healthunlocked.com/pasoc/po...

To which I add...

I bought some methylcobalamin powder a couple of years ago - and ended up not using it because I was concerned about storage and maintaining the sterile status of the injectable B12.

The Methylcobalamin crystals came in a screw top bottle which had to be opened to add the saline. Once the bottle of methyl crystals and the vial of saline is opened and mixed with the methyl crystals, the sterile integrity of the (now fluid) B12 can no longer be guaranteed and is therefore potentially open to contamination. More specially, it will be some time before all the B12 is used (longer for potential contamination to take place). And the potential for contamination is further increased every time the bottle is handled and a new injection drawn up.

Is it okay to use? Who knows?

Would I advise anybody to inject a substance that has to be stored after the sterile integrity has been broken and which no longer comes from a guaranteed sterile source - no.

Always better to use single dose ampoules for injection purposes 😉.

Added to this, please be aware that some people react badly to methylcobalamin.

As for a layman being able to check if the methylcobalamin power is what it says it is...no idea (but I suspect not).

But there are others here more able to answer that question than me 😉.

👍

[GazKaz in reply to Foggyme]

Hi Foggyme

As I ended with Fbirder - you too are someone I also owe a debt of gratitude for the time, effort and information I gleaned early on from you in my search for clear, pragmatic and extensive knowledge re B12.

As well as for pointing me in the direction of the 2 German Companies selling Hydoxy B12 ampoules. (I opted for MyCare.DE - ordered on a Monday delivered Friday).

Can't fault anything you say re the Methyl B12,

- and the German 1mg/1ml Hydroxy ampoules solved the electric pins and needles neuropathy in my feet & calves within a week. Feet still have a residual dull and numb(ish) feel - still 90% better than the electric pins & needles re getting some sleep , but that may improve with time or prove permanent (had the feet aspect for 2yrs, calves only last 6m).

Thanks again for your knowledge & altruistic nature - keep up the good work.

Regards

GazKaz

[Catman1]

I’ve read lots of posts comparing methylcobalamin and hydro on this forum and there seem to be some very passionate views on both sides.

As I understand (could be wrong) there is no overall medical consensus over which form is superior and different people often report a preference for which they feel works best for them. I’m not sure there is any evidence for why this is.

Again from my layman’s understanding:

Methylcobalamin naturally exists in the body, hydro is from bacteria and food but can also be manufactured. Cyano is a synthetic form.

Could be wrong but that’s my very simplified understanding of it.

[Catman1 in reply to Catman1]

Realise this wasn’t your question but just got me thinking as I was reading the replies

[fbirder in reply to Catman1]

No, methylcobalamin doesn't exist in the body. Well, it does, but only fleetingly. Most of the B12 inside you will exist as hydroxocobalamin.

The methylcobalamin you get in supplements is made, chemically, from the hydroxocobalamin that you get from the bacteria grown in vats.

As for which is best - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

These people say there's not much in it. But that hydroxocobalamin has advantages in rare cases.

We conclude that supplementing MeCbl or AdoCbl is unlikely to be advantageous compared to CNCbl. On the other hand, there are obvious advantages of high parenteral doses (1–2 mg) of HOCbl in treating inborn errors of Cbl metabolism.

[Catman1 in reply to fbirder]

Thanks fbirder. Article does say that there is no evidence of one type being more effective than another though so probably just what works or people feel works best for them.

[Catman1 in reply to Catman1]

Also I may be wrong but isn’t the article discussing oral supplementation?

[fbirder in reply to Catman1]

The route is irrelevant

[Catman1]

Why? Personally oral supplements did nothing for me but injections changed my life and I have always used methyl so genuinely interested

[helvella in reply to Catman1]

The point would appear to be that the discussion over which form of B12 applies regardless the route. Not that the route itself isn't of vital importance to many.

fbirder - is that correct?

[fbirder in reply to helvella]

Yes. That's right.

There seems to be little difference between B12 'flavours' in the amount that gets absorbed from an oral dose. So if oral cyanocobalamin does nothing for you then oral methylcobalamin will do just as little.

Likewise, once B12 gets into the cells there is no reason to suspect that one form may be better than another, as they are all converted to cob(II)alamin as soon as they get in there.

It's the bit in the middle that certainly can have differences. Cyanocobalamin is eliminated in the urine to a greater extent than hydroxocobalamin. Methylcobalamin gives some people horrid side effects. Doubtless there are many other differences.

[buster_uk]

GazKas does that mean even with b12 treatment it might be futile trying to correct one's longtime health condition, even though that person as changed his or her lifestyle and thought processes as well to aid in everyway to promote better health and wellbeing both to themselves and those around them. Was just wondering in my situation as I'm stuck in a circle of misery. {my own doing} I want to feel well again. As it is I feel I am not the man I used to be and want to live a bit longer and get better from this. I've tried all three types of flavour none seem to agree with me. Am I still doing some thing wrong?

[Catman1 in reply to buster_uk]

Methylcobalamin has worked really well for me. Not sure if because 5000mcg compared to the 1000mcg hydro. Not met anyone who has had bad effects from it. Also met lots of people who get on well with hydro. Lots of well researched answers on this thread but I am drawn to the conclusion it just depends on the individual. Not very scientific I know lol

[fbirder in reply to Catman1]

Not met anyone who has had bad effects from it.

You have now. Several people on here, including me, have reported the same nasty effects from IM methylcobalamin.

[Catman1 in reply to fbirder]

There are also people on the group who have said they didn’t get on well with hydro. Don’t see the point in being militant about one form or another - main thing is that we can all get something which helps us. Ur research and posts have been really helpful and informative btw - many thanks

[fbirder in reply to Catman1]

Apart from clivealive ive not come across anybody who had an adverse reaction to hydroxocobalamin.

[Catman1 in reply to fbirder]

Some people have felt not effective but it’s no problem- main thing is great different people are finding things which work for them particularly with this ridiculous 12 week policy

[Catman1]

Makes sense - thanks

[jaybirdxNHM]

Wow I wish I was A chemist!!!!!