Mental state and the state of the fascia Part1 - Pain Concern

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Mental state and the state of the fascia Part1

johnsmith profile image
18 Replies

Introduction

Through the practice of mindfulness observation and discussions with many people I have come to various conclusions concerning fascia. I have discussed mindfulness as used by myself together with its problems in a previous post. I have found by inquiry that many medical students do not cover the intricacies of fascia in their medical courses. The reader needs to do their own investigations to determine the truth or error of what I have presented. These investigations need to use mindfulness.

Fascia forms a continuous tensional network throughout the human body, covering and connecting every single organ, every muscle, and even every nerve or tiny muscle fibre. The first International Fascia Research Congress was held at Harvard Medical School in October 2007.

The fascia has thousands of nerve endings which feed into the brain. It has contractile components which can contract and relax. I have given a proposed diagram of the data pathways.

A helpful book on fascia is “Fascia what it is and why it matters” by David Lesondak ISBN 978-1-909141-55-1.

The arguments I present need to be investigated by the reader to see if they hold true for them. A principle mode of investigation is meditation and mindfulness. Meditation to develop the skills to enable quietness of the mind and mindfulness with a light touch to observe what takes place.

Emotions are felt in the body. I believe that fascia is what determines to a very large extent the emotions that are felt and the brain interprets and acts upon the felt emotions. The brain sets the tensions in the fascia by various means (physical and chemical) and then interprets these emotions by feedbacks from the fascia to the spine and then from the spine to the brain. If the feedbacks are very high (whatever this means) then the brain starts to get overloaded. A system’s stress breakdown point in the brain is reached with the resultant fall in ability to do things well. These overloads are what have caused people to seek help from psychiatrists. This may not have been as helpful as they would have liked. Psychiatrists listen to and observe what the patients say and do. Psychiatrists never consider or observe the patient’s fascial state. Psychiatrists could by their actions enable a more problematic state to develop in patients. Psychiatrists often ignore how patients use language when drawing conclusions. The deep fascial state cannot be observed.

I have come to the conclusion that particular fascial tensions determine what thinking processes the brain engages in. Fascial tensions are determined by environment (both social and physical), drug-taking regimes, muscular habits, human gut microbiome, and brain instructions.

The above is a matter of personal investigation to determine its truth. This investigation takes time because lots of observations (though mindfulness) need to take place before enough variability of events and response have been observed and assimilated. The data that has been observed and remembered can develop new conclusions or test the truth or error of my reasoning. The therapist the patient sees cannot determine this truth. No therapist or machine can determine what the actual internal state of the patient’s fascia is, nor how this state impacts on the patient’s thinking.

Drugs

When a person takes a drug what happens? The drug affects the body. Drugs diffuse all over the body. The amount that resides in different places depends on the drug and drug amount. The drug has an effect on the fascia due to the drug’s presence in the fascia. The drug has an effect on the brain which in turn sends some sort of message to the fascia. What effect the drug has can depend on the state the fascia is already in. This is why drug psychiatric side effects can be a very variable quantity. The fascia informs the brain of its state. The brain then responds with a thinking process regime that has dependence on the inputs it receives from the fascia.

The discomfort in the fascia can be become considerable. Drugs or alcohol can dull this pain or replace the discomfort with non discomfort and maybe the fascia sending pleasurable signals to the brain. Drugs and alcohol can be problematic because they interfere with the brain’s ability to think and respond well. By pleasurable I can mean signals that generate less discomfort.

Psychological and psychiatric Issues

As a result of the effects of long term physical health disabilities I have had the experience of having to see both psychologists and psychiatrists. I have engaged in talking therapy. I have engaged in physical therapies. These different therapies produce different results. My engagement with psychologists and psychiatrists has in the long term created a lot of potential problems with how the medical professionals interpret my medical notes. Psychologists and psychiatrists when they see a patient can have a doctor who states they cannot find anything wrong. This can lead to the assumption that nothing wrong is present hence the patient has a mental problem. The issue of the doctor or consultant not being competent to find a physical problem is often not on the considered agenda.

My experience is that what I tell psychologists and psychiatrists is recorded by them differently from what I have told them. Events that have never ever been discussed or have never taken place get entered into the medical records as having taken place. This lack of accurate recording happens often. There is a lack of reliable patient records. Thus, how can it be possible that a psychological or psychiatric diagnosis be researched for best treatments? If the fascia is playing a part in the way the brain responds and the psychiatrists and psychologists are ignoring the fascia response, how can the treatment options they offer be effective and efficient?

There are two genders and people with different sexual orientations. In the two genders there are sexual genetic characteristics and a wide range of psychological orientation characteristics. My experience is that the two genders male and female can and often do respond to the environment very differently. It seems logical to assume that the effect of an environmental stimulus on the fascia could be different for the two genders. On certain issues the two genders have a very different fascial response. It seems logical that an environmental stimulus input to the brain which then sends a response to the fascia is different for the two genders.

I have found that a number of members of the female gender are demanding that the male gender should have the same response that they have. If they do not there is something wrong with the male. This can develop into something very bad as the male gender’s fascia develops into a particular emotional tension which the brain can then release into violence against the person who is perceived to indicate that there is something wrong with them, or they can carry this tension which can be released against a bystander who caused a very minor irritation. How can this violence be prevented? A friend of mine was murdered 50 years ago. I came very close to killing someone 55 years ago and was very lucky there were others around to stop me. I am thinking of all the injuries that are being given to people by others. I am thinking of lifetime of pain these injuries can cause both to the victim and to the perpetrator. I am thinking of lifetime of pain that can be caused when messages from fascia in a particular state overload the brain or set particular responses in motion. Many in Painconcern suffer sleep problems which in turn because of brain response has an effect on the fascia. This effect may create dangerous emotional tensions. I will never forget a clinical neuropsychologist who worked in the NHS stating under oath in a court of law: “Losing an hour of sleep per night has no effect on one.”. The court case had a negative mental effect on me for years afterwards.

When I was growing up I was told to count to ten when angry. When experiencing the anger response I was often too emotionally upset for this to be effective.

I appear to have wandered off the topic for Painconcern. I hopefully can explain how this relates to many on Painconcern. We have a hidden disability which others cannot see. Many others who cannot see our very real pain (particular some of those who have some authority) can imply accidentally or deliberately that we are making the problem up or that we have some mental deficiency. This is an attack on our self worth and the anger and sometimes intense rage which we have to suppress does not do our pain or our relations with others much good.

The anger we have developed we try to suppress mentally. This is important for social reasons. I think we can engage another way that is far less exhausting. And more efficient and effective. We can decide to set ourselves the task of moving in a gentle manner. This changes the state of the fascia. This changes the feedback of anger from the fascia into the brain. This in turn reduces the input into the brain that demands action. When I was growing up I can remember the films showing the irate lady throwing things at the man who had upset her. (I know this is non PC). I can remember 40 years ago an aunt telling me that when she got really upset about something she would buy some very cheap second hand plates and then smash them. She told me that she felt wonderful afterwards. These women had by movement moved the state of their fascia from one state to that of another. A number of men I know when they have got upset went for a walk. They found that their emotional state changed during the walk. The walk has modified the state of their fascia.

There have been many cases of people who are ready to jump off a high building. A good citizen goes to talk to them and they decide not to jump off the high building. I was taught that this was because someone had talked them out of it. Was the real reason that someone had spoken to them and the person thinking of jumping had re-orientated their body to the person speaking to them? Their re-orientation had changed their fascia state and as a result the feedback into the brain from the fascia had changed. Following this as a result there was no longer the wanting to commit suicide thought process.

I have spoken to a number of people who had been admitted to a psychiatric hospital after a failed suicide attempt. In conversation with them there was a tacit acknowledgement of moving out of the suicidal state by moving the body. I.e. changing the state of the fascia.

A topic which causes grief, upset and pain to a lot of people is the accidental or deliberate injuring and killing of infants and children by adults who are supposed to be in a caring role. A local vicar told me a number of years ago about one of his parishioners. The parishioner was a well liked person. This person had shaken his child to death. The circumstances were that the parishioner, due to a range of circumstances, got very tired and exhausted because of work and night shift sleep issues. He was left on his own to care for his child. The child did something as children do to irritate him and he shook the young child to death. This was totally out of normal character. The person was over tired and exhausted and would have had a particular fascial state at the time of the incident. I believe that he reacted according to his fascial state at the time and coupled with tiredness had no means to inhibit his response of extreme anger. The parishioner lives with the pain that his actions caused to others and his own pain for killing his child. If he had understood the state his fascia was in he could have knowingly changed it. It is possible to change the fascial state to prevent further tragic events like his. I have met many people who have fascial states which are swift to anger and react. I am careful around those people. I have learnt that when my fascial state gets into certain states I need to avoid people.

The headlines talk of evil people. The psychiatrists talk of investigating (history taking) why these people did what they did. The history taking never considers the state of the person’s fascia present at the time of the problematic event. There is a lot of talk about mental health issues with the brain in isolation with the body having no part to play.

What has the above to do with Painconcern? Painconcern deals with issues of pain and how to reduce pain and discomfort. Emotional states can be painful or at least uncomfortable. Extreme emotional states can occur by taking the wrong approach to tackling minor emotional issues.

I believe that if my understanding about fascia is correct or is along the right sort of lines then there are methods with which we can engage that can reduce pain and discomfort. There are methods to change how we feel. These methods involve movement and observing movement. The development of these methods requires the use of citizen science, meditation and mindfulness. The methods cannot rely on the written or spoken word to develop. The methods rely on doing, experiencing and modifying.

I have been looking at methods for a long time without actually formulating anything. Different things work for different people because of various innate skills that people possess.

I have as a result of my road traffic accident and the events that followed it experienced many uncomfortable and potentially destructive emotions over the years. I have found from experience that handling the experienced emotions can be exhausting with long term after effects that interferes with my ability to do things.

I will begin to discuss these methods in Part 2.

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johnsmith
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18 Replies

Really, do you think those of us who hurt are going to read all that? John, simplify. And tell us what is going on with your own body.

johnsmith profile image
johnsmith in reply to SecretlyDisabled7

The simple version is. Fascia state creates emotions and has an influence on how bad pain is. By moving the body in certain ways emotions can be changed. Pain issues can be changed.

Each person must do there own investigation using mindfulness to investigate how changes in fascia state can improve their quality of life.

I have used the effects on my own body to investigate how changes to fascia modified my pain and mental state.

I understand the point you are making about the length. It is not something that can be easily read in one go. It is best copied into a word processor and printed out. Then read slowly. The print out can be given to a person's medical consultant or GP so that the consultant can look at another approach.

The image can be downloaded and printed out.

I was not thinking as clearly as I should of. I was so enthusiastic about finishing it that I forgot about the fuzzy brains that pain and discomfort produces.

My intention was to give people the words to challenge the medical professionals with sound reasoning. To actually be able to show the wording to a medical doctor or consultant. To give people another approach in detail so as to use the idea effectively as a citizen science endeavour. Hence the length.

I value your comments. Critical replies most welcome.

I have taken your comment about length on board.

hypercat54 profile image
hypercat54

You say research has been done? Can you provide a link to it please. x

johnsmith profile image
johnsmith in reply to hypercat54

I have just had a look for possible links. It is a nightmare to find them.

The following link shows the problem

bodyworkmovementtherapies.c...

copy of first chapter of “Fascia what it is and why it matters” by David Lesondak

researchgate.net/publicatio...

Google "david lesondak fascia pdf"

Google "thomas myers fascia"

Scientific research from academics is not reliable in this area. Academic research tend to be research in regard to two variables by people who have no training in using their hands in a sensitive manner. Research by therapists tend to regarded as anecdotal. There are no scientific validated trials. A scientific validated trial can approach a million pound in cost. This can be afforded by a drug company which will get the money back from sales. A group of therapists using their hands on patients who are all different have not the financial resources to do a scientific validated trial.

Hence my continual reference to mindfulness and what happens in the person.

I am coming from personal experience and personal theory which needs to be tested by observation.

What i have is best copied into a word processor and printed out. Then read slowly. The ideas can be tested to see if they make sense as a working model

The image can be downloaded and printed out.

I was trying to lay the ground work for citizen science investigation to help develop methods to reduce pain and increase quality of life for the individual person.

hypercat54 profile image
hypercat54 in reply to johnsmith

Thank you. x

Amk31 profile image
Amk31

Rolfing deals with fascia. Rolfers have some of the same school of thought on this. Everything is held in the fascia which needs to be released.

johnsmith profile image
johnsmith in reply to Amk31

Thanks for the support.

Thank you for the information. It's about what someone is thinking, feeling, etc.

You still didn't say what is happening in your own body in regard to pain, illness, etc.

johnsmith profile image
johnsmith in reply to SecretlyDisabled7

Thanks for the reply. My emotions vary considerably. My pain varies considerably. How much pain I am in depends on what I have been doing and how I do it. It is also varies in response to events which take place in my environment.

What I am trying to do is to give the words to challenge the medical profession and to lay the groundwork for a person with a health disability to investigate their disability to improve quality of life.

I found that there are things I can do to change certain things. I have used these techniques a lot. I trying to lay the ground work for others to develop my techniques further. With a well reasoned foundation and tools to investigate the ability for the medical profession to say its anecdotal and dismiss one is made harder.

If I can give the patient good enough reasons there is a possibility that the medical consultant can support the patient in their endeavours.

I was at a two day medical research conference last week. Some of the people at the top appreciate that there is a need for change. Some them understand that much research does not work as effective research for benefit of patients with a long term health disability. This is very different than what it was 5 years ago.

How something is done is not quite understand by young medical researchers. So I have to work on improving the wording so that they can understand.

Heloise profile image
Heloise

That is extremely interesting so far, John. I haven't finished but this idea of muscle tension and that the fascia has so much to do with it sounds very plausible. Have you read Herbert Benson's book "The Relaxation Response"? Using meditation or mindfulness must achieve this response to be effective. Dr. Walt Stoll constantly stressed this technique for those looking for any kind of healing.

Many of our discussions have talked about "signalling" throughout the body. These messages are sent through various methods. I always thought the vagus nerve was the main transmitter but the fascia is all encompassing and probably more powerful in the end. Dr. Stoll constantly pressed the importance of using relaxation techniques in order for healing to take place by releasing muscle tension which we now see manifested by the fascia. Very fascinating.

johnsmith profile image
johnsmith in reply to Heloise

I have not read "The Relaxation Response". I tend to think rather than "releasing" as "changing". Releasing will get strange and dismissing looks from a medical consultant. Changing puts a consulting in a position that they cannot argue. It is the problem with language. In the context of the therapy session with the therapist it carries a particular meaning. In the context of the medical consultant who has never done hands on work with fascia or muscle they cannot understand the meaning.

It does not matter how much is transmitted through the vagus nerve or the fascia. What does matter is that we have a word and description of something with which to use in conversations with the medical profession. This is so I the patient with the long term health disability can investigate and change things to improve quality of life. In a medical consultation we tend to stuck with 30 second bullet points. My thinking is here is the reasoning we can place before a medical consultant.

The issue is what is the signal or signals that are transmitted. How can we change something unpleasant to something less unpleasant.

Talking of vagus nerve you may be interested in the following link

integrityresearchinstitute....

Thanks for the support.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascia

johnsmith profile image
johnsmith in reply to

Thanks for the link. It is a useful reference to how the medical profession views the fascia.

It does not unfortunately discuss much of the information that came out of the Harvard medical school conference of 2007 and the further scientific research that has been published in books and papers.

This is totally me. I will read links. Moving the body helps release tension I have asthma it’s worse from tension harder to move. Acid refkux. Trying to treat refkux properly but tension is difficult. Doing breathing exercises. Psychiatrist actually said people like me meditating doesn’t work. Dealing with loss suffering does. But there has to be a bridge.

johnsmith profile image
johnsmith in reply to

The psychiatrist has very little understanding of meditation. Meditation can be a tool to enable other things to work. Meditation to reduce stress has always been a non-starter in the religious traditions. In the religious traditions you do it as a spiritual discipline. From the spiritual discipline things start to change. You notice things you did not notice before. As you notice things you did not notice before you can make changes to how you do things. These changes enable you to improve quality of life.

"Dealing with loss suffering does". Lovely quote which is the get out clause for the psychiatrist. How do you deal with loss and suffering? You allow time to allow you to let go of it. I can easily say this after the event. When all mental hell is breaking lose it does not seem true. However, what you notice on a personal life basis in practising meditation is that as things come, they will go. Thus you have a foundation whereby you know deep down on a personal level that the hell you are experiencing will go as it has come.

youtube.com/watch?v=_IFvabl...

Covers movement and meditation. Look closely at the video you will notice that even standing still the monk is moving. Notice now he moves his feet. Moving feet occurs at 4 minutes 35 seconds into the video.

"First post part 3" deals with Stress Breakdown point

healthunlocked.com/painconc...

Many psychiatrists do not understand Stress Breakdown point. It is an engineering concept. Engineering concepts are not in a psychiatrists medical training. "Dealing with loss and suffering" can take one over over the stress breakdown point. This then hinders good mental health. The trick is to keep the stress below the stress breakdown point. So movement; moving meditation brings the stress down to below the stress breakdown point. You apply this when "Dealing with loss and suffering" stress becomes too great.

All this is a matter of personal investigation.

Hope I have been able to be helpful.

I will be grateful for any critical comments.

in reply to johnsmith

I think your posts are very helpful and I’m so grateful. Thank you for your sharing ... suffering is hell esp back to back. The body mind can’t process it. I see how this concept getting used to it leaving helps esp in critical back to back suffering. Do you know how I can copy the link so I can have it on my phone ? Usually on YouTube I just copy the URL but don’t know how it doesn’t seem to have one.

johnsmith profile image
johnsmith in reply to

I am not sure what you asking. Are you asking to a link to letting go? Or are you asking about how to copy links on the forum?

I have just been able to copy the Youtube link. So it has one that can be seen on my system. I am using chromium. I right click on my mouse to get the url.

in reply to johnsmith

Thanks that was ask. Wonderful thank you

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