Piped up my 4 nearly 5 year old granddaughter last week on first day of school! Since then my son and his wife have been called into school yesterday to discuss the GD's abilities. She's been labelled by Headteacher as ''astonishing" done some, what she thinks are number puzzles, written a sentence, counted up to 110 and recited alphabet forwards and backwards and her 5 times table. Saying Mummy hasn't done the rest yet! Headteacher is very concerned as the school might not be able to meet her needs. So advised to look at specialist schools for extremely clever children. My son is very concerned although both sets grandparents can chip for in fees but she's with her friends. It's not been a huge shock but when the Headteacher told them her ability to understand and solve problems is something very rare and she might well pass an 11 plus tomorrow it became apparent that the school doesn't have the resources to provide the stimulation she needs to thrive. My son has said several times in the past few months she frightens him with her knowledge and it got worse as she beat him at 10 pin bowling on Friday ! LOL
But the minx is going to need to be challenged and the school have said she's a lovely 'kind and helpful child' but she has to move up a year class next week to allow other children to keep on track. Her hand goes up too much! Such is life as I said to them earlier this year she's going to end up in prison or Downing Street. She is a joy to look after provided she's occupied and intends to be an artist and married to Rory when she grows up. ! Anyone else with grandchildren or children that bring joy and are lovely to have but it's so nice when they go to their own homes?
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East Sutton Prison to mine. Looks like an angel but can't ride her bike yet. We are all different and it was very disconcerting when we realised she could actually add up faster than both me and my husband without being prompted. Bargained as the glittery necklace cost £5 and the bracelet was £2 in M&S did it mean she could have them instead of the socks and knickers (girls don't wear pants only boys) that mummy said she needed costing £8 pleeeeeaaaasee? Answered by grandad Yes by nanny No. Needless to say she got both. lol x
Private school is jolly expensive, I'd save your pennies for a bit later on, senior school is where state schools really fall down with the clever kids in my experience, or maybe junior school.
In the mean time, the school needs to be a bit more specific about what they can't handle. Obviously Maths, so perhaps your daughter could come up with a separate curriculum for your granddaughter to work on, perhaps ask around among the local parents who home school for help, maybe a Maths tutor could take over Maths teaching from the school. To be blunt (apologies to any primary school teachers here) sometimes primary school teachers aren't that great at Maths, which is okay, we need the ones who are good at Maths to teach senior school. However they get freaked out by the kids who are good at Maths. My younger nephew's reception class teacher described him as a Maths genius. This lead to eye rolls from my sister, who has a physics degree and could put my nephew's ability into context, having had a friend at uni who actually was a genius.
They should already have a plan in place for children who have learnt to read before starting school, that's not uncommon.
As for putting her hand up all the time, I used to do that, she needs telling that it's great she's enthusiastic, but the class is for all the children and that the teacher needs to ask simple questions for the slower children, so perhaps she could leave easy questions to the other children to answer.
No reason why the teacher can't specify when a question is for her to tackle.
My mum was put up a year and it brings other problems like the other children being emotionally more advanced and physically bigger. Her first year report at the grammar school said she was immature, that still riles her to this day and she's 79!
Thank you so much and I've copied this for my son and DIL as I don't think they can see the wood from the trees and its great to pass on experiences like your Mums as this is first time we'd all heard of it and my DIL said she be leaving all her chums !. Both said she doesn't get this from them as they had to work hard at Uni but she just gets "stuff". I wonder if the schools are now so hard pressed that some things are lost as there will always be those more able and those not so. My GD doesn't know if she's right or left handed as writes with both and we've all thought she was a bit gifted but didn't realise the level of her ability. She's been doing 2 x50 piece jigsaws jumbled up for the past year. 100 ones are no problem. The dinosaur ones faster than me and thrashes everyone at matching pick up cards. Last time I played her I had 4 pairs, my husband 5 and she had the rest and we never let her win. Plays UNO with the cards laid out on the table as hands too small to hold them and wins. But she trusts us not to look at her cards. Coming over at the weekend so sending them a copy of your post for thoughts tonightXX
I'm no genius myself, but I do work in software development with some very clever people who have Maths degrees from places like Cambridge, so if it would help, I could ask on our work slack channel for advice. We've got one lad who did his Maths A level exam in 15 minutes! (I got through A level Maths with a lot of extra lessons )
BTW your granddaughter might be eligible for extra help, that SEND funding applies to the super clever too.
I thinks a bit of a get out for the school to have decided they can’t meet her needs after one day. Her teachers need to be looking into working with gifted children and challenging and extending her in different ways. Such as reading a problem and being able to use the knowledge she has to think about and solve it rather than just straight adding up or knowing times tables.
As for always being first hand up I had a boy like that who was very bright and I often said more or less what JenifferW said, “I know you know the answer but I’m going to give someone else a chance” and that was enough for him to realise that I knew he knew but that other children needed to try too.
Her special educational needs are every bit as special as those of less able children and unfortunately it appears (to me) to be the clever children who get overlooked - she sounds to be extremely clever and they need to meet her needs rather than just encourage her to go elsewhere.
Primary school is as much about mixing with all sorts of children and rubbing along together as it is about anything else. There are so many other subjects to learn about.
Although saying that it is rather concerning for the head to say she feels that ‘her school may not be able to meet your grand daughter’s needs.’. That would worry me somewhat.
The little girl next door to us is very, very bright and when she pops regularly in to visit my husband and I we are sure her poor exhausted parents are happy to have a little break from her. She has always had a good vocabulary and been a very clear speaker and we have had hours of entertainment listening to her through the hedge. We have no grandchildren of our own so while she is very entertaining it’s good when she goes home.
Please don’t think of her ending up in prison - think of her as becoming a business tycoon or a super duper scientist - or an explorer or inventor - or a concert pianist that’s much more likely. 😊
I think although it was first week, they go for trial half days, now getting reports from the feeder play school. I’m not sure if they are just covering themselves as the school has a good reputation and the parents were so pleased she got in. It might be that the munchkin might calm down and benefit from going up a year. I think I’ll copy your reply in as well as unless you’re in education it’s hard to understand what happens as so much is for the less able not the more able. You’re right, she might do very well indeed, it’s a joke as we used to say we’d never divorce as neither wanted the sons. But it seems daughters are even more challenging as her language skills are so much more complex that our boys were, that I remember at that age. It is odd too as she copies my son playing the piano. And wants to draw and paint every opportunity she gets. X
Oh I agree about daughters. I think they are much harder work than sons - although I have two sons.
From what I’ve seen boys are pretty straightforward and predictable. You can read them like a book. I remember collecting the little girl next door from nursery and when she was lying on the carpet with me drawing she said sadly ‘Anna says I’m no good at colouring in’.
Anna was her nursery friend’s big sister. Husband and I were shocked that big sister could be so mean to her little visitor when she was only four and sad that she could take it to heart.. That’s something you would definitely never have got from boys.
If her parents are glad they got her into that school that is good. You could ask or look online to see what arrangements the county she is in has for more able and gifted students.
Lovely to hear your grand daughter is interested in the piano and art - she sounds well rounded and I’m sure once she settles down and discovers books and other interests and like minded friends she’ll go on and do well. She sounds a joy - I used to joke that the child next door will probably be running the class in no time. It’s really good to have some brighter than average children in your class though.
I have to say though that young children are exhausting when you get older. We laugh about that in Pilates - one lady was saying she has a ten year old grand daughter who rings up and invites herself round - they have to drive to the next village to collect her and once she is there my friend says she just never shuts up, but it’s lovely that she just wants to come over ‘for a chat.’
my daughter was moved up a year for reading and maths and spent the rest of her time with her original class. Though it wasn’t as quick as a week into first term. Yes she left her friends for those lessons but she made new ones in the other classes and she didn’t mind because she was not getting anything from her age group lessons and she was much more stimulated with the older year group. She did go on to take maths and English GCSE’s early and start her A level Maths with a few others at secondary school. Probably not much help to you but if there’s an option for lessons with children at her level then it may be all she needs at this stage.
It is helpful as I was shocked, not that she’s clever but that it might be a problem. I’ll let them know that it does work and children do get a benefit from a different year group. I’m sure that it’s the man subject of concern but reassuring to know it can really help. X
With primary don't think they have sets like secondary school does as that levels out ability.Probably reason Headteacher mentioned it ( though after such a short time seems abit unprofessional, as unchallenged kids in school will just stop paying attention as they are bored.Private have smaller classes but expensive,also it could be she's on the spectrum as some with Asperger's can be super knowledgeable
Yes this is what is happening with my middle child. IQ tests in primary school showed he was gifted especially maths however the primary school did absolutely nothing to challenge him. He was constantly bored in school as all the work was far too easy. Last year was his last year in primary school when it became obvious he had signs of autism so is currently now on a waiting list for an assessment. I was told this can happen to some very bright children and signs aren’t obvious until there older.
He’s now started a grammar school, is much happier now he’s actually learning.
I'm so glad your son is happier now it must be so hard for children who need extra help no matter if more or less able and this might be the start of her long journey. xx
My friend sent a key ring to me when my grandson was born that reads.... Grandchildren fill a space in your heart, you never knew was empty. And don't they just?
With regards to your little bright spark my advice would be to wait and see. Teachers have to differentiate in class and I admit this can be difficult when they have special needs at each end of the spectrum. But it's far from impossible. She may need enrichment activities but she should be able to get this in a regular setting. My daughter was very bright but I didn't send her to a fee paying school until Y7. Remember fee paying schools are not full of exceptional children (just parents who can afford to pay) so her teachers will still have to provide a challenge at this age. I agree with Jennifer state secondary schools are not the best for very bright kids . So, unless you're lucky enough to live in a grammar school area, save your pennies for that. For now I'd just ask the teachers to ensure she gets enrichment activities and let her be a child.
Very true, and being a child is about more than being able to read and write. Time will tell and I suppose this weekend as we've got her for the night it'll be being beaten at cards, she looked interest in my husbands Suduko puzzles the other week so he can show her that but mostly it'll be baking fairy cakes. She loves that and weighing the flour even if half goes over the floor and most of the sultanas or chocolate chips get eaten while she counts the same for each top. I've a stool she sits on with her red pinafore to bake. She likes baking but eating even more although is happy to take nearly all home for the freezer to share. x
don’t rule out private schools . Some have scholarships and bursaries for talented and gifted children . A child should not be discouraged from putting there hand up in lessons they need to thrive .
Normally teachers won't discourage children they ,just will ask the others.Also other kids won't bother engaging if one child always puts hand up and gets asked question
It sounds like the school is just being lazy here. Children on starting school are all at different levels both from differing abilities and from what they have been exposed to at home or pre school, there is lots of levelling out that happens over primary school years. Lots of small primary schools have classes with children in 2 year groups in and the teachers just differentiate the work between children at either end, same as they do with children in a single year class so moving her up a year or for some lessons shouldn't be a problem at all. My friends daughter moved up a year in primary school and the only time it became a real issue was when she went to Uni and she wasn't 18 so freshers week was a bit of a problem!
Wow!! I’ve never come across a school that has said that about a pupil so young!! You must all be so proud and amazed 😁😁
What I do know about is the school “gifted and talented” program that functions within the school. My eldest son was placed in the scheme but that was in secondary school. He had a very high IQ at 12 years old, he also has Asperger’s so although he is extremely intelligent, it came with challenges too. Your granddaughter is very young to be placed in a special school and although it’s great they have recognised her talents, putting pressure to achieve on such a young child may be hard for her. I hope you can all decide together what is best for her. She sounds like a wonderful little girl ☺️☺️
I think in part it might have been a warning as if she goes home saying she's not allowed to give answers because her hand goes up too many times they might wonder why. I don't know yet if she also has told them the teacher said she was amazing so the Head was concerned at a child who could rationalise the concept at being different. It's so different to when mine went to school and we had to nag to get the homework done, incentivise with bribes and were told ours were bright but lazy. lol
PS it's been posted as being on a spectrum and that occurred to me previously with the not walking on pavement lines then only walking along the lines. But thats just an odd thing that I noticed when we've had her out with us. It might just be part of a game inside her head though. xx
Just another possibility is home education. My son was very bright. When he moved into the 1-2 age room at nursery I told the nursery nurse that he knew his numbers and letters. After a few sessions she called me aside and said she wanted to show me something. She pointed out various letters on the advent calendar on the wall and he identified them all. She beamed saying, 'he knows all his letters!' and I replied, 'I did warn you!'.
Turns out loads of parents say their kids know there letters when what they mean is they know that abc song, they have no idea what letters are and what they mean. 🤷♀️
So when our local really lovely village school had their open afternoon I took him up. We suspected Aspergers (now called high functioning autism) and weren't sure the school could handle a very bright kid that was different. She watched him play for a while and suggested that if we were at all interested in home education that we should do that, because she knew the teachers and the head that was taking over the following year and she didn't think the school would suit him. So we decided to home educate.
My son's best friend was even better at reading. She had hyperlexia and started school reading newspapers, adult books and so on. But she didn't really understand what she was reading. I did question why they were sending her to school. By Christmas she was so stressed they took her out and started home educating too.
The two kids had a ball, as did us mums. They were structured and she did 'lessons' every day. I was autonomous, we followed my son's lead as to what and how he wanted to learn. I expected he would do the 11+ and go to the local grammar school. But it was clear he would never pass it. We went down the first page of questions and he deconstructed every one to say why they were the wrong questions!
My friend's daughter went to college and did GCSEs and A levels and went off to Cambridge. My son sadly ended up with chronic fatigue, so has never been able to exams, but his knowledge astounds me. And I am essentially still home educating him, only at PhD level. I am doing a PhD and we often read together and discuss my work with him!
So don't be afraid to consider home education, it doesn't have to happen now, it can happen at any time, and it doesn't have to be for ever, some bright kids stay in primary school for the first few years but then come out to be educated at home for a couple of years before secondary school.
And in addition to Mensa, you might like to suggest to them the NAGC which has rebranded itself as Potential Plus UK. My husband's parents joined the NAGC when he was a kid, for the same reasons that we joined when my son was a kid, and it was a really good place to be because you didn't have the boasting problems of the school gate. No one boasted at how clever their kids were because they all were, and we could just be parents there.
It can be complicated! Our youngest taught himself to read and write before he went to school and his excellent first teacher provided him with much more advanced books which had age appropriate content , she also gave him complex puzzles and games to do in maths. Later on in primary school he was assessed by an outside education expert and we were given options to consider such as private Maths and English lessons outside school, a scholarship to a private school who accelerated all areas of the curriculum or other schools to consider which might provide more stimulation. My late husband who had been moved up a year at school felt very strongly that the ability to form friendships was the most important thing to have throughout life and that he was better staying with his own age group and we eventually left him in the local school. It wasn’t without its challenges - periods of boredom being one but he loved to learn and followed his own interests through libraries, the internet and summer schools suggested by some of his teachers. He now has several degrees, including a PhD, a job in education, a group of friends from all stages of his life, a lovely partner and, importantly a good relationship with both his brothers. He still loves to learn. As I said, whatever decision is made, it’s complicated and you never really know as they’re growing up whether you made the right one.
So do I . She does amuse herself with puzzles and painting and drawing. We have a toy box full of games that we often loose to her when she stays. My husband remarked we used to let the son win sometimes to keep him interested but the GD we have to stop winning as its us that loose interest being the losers in Contect 4 and UNO and Pick up pairs etc. x
I was referring to mental games that one engages in without toys or props. Not only useful for bright youngsters who are paying attention during lessons they’ve mastered, but later, when attending meetings where we wait for colleagues to catch on.
I suppose as grandparents we can only look on as being a parent has no rules. All anyone can ever do is their best, and friendship is so important. I'm still best friends with the girl I grew up next door too. So much water under bridge, tears, disagreements and divorce and moving away then back. She lived miles away but when I broke my leg turned up to do my housework and take the micky too. I think the GD is actually really happy and is one of the ones who've benefited from being a Covid baby. Its interesting to read of the experience of people who've got experience of this type of childhood issue or are teachers because it's all something to consider. xx
I’m finding being a grandparent fascinating. Like you I see mine frequently and I also have a four year old granddaughter after having only had boys myself. Despite being very premature she’s very articulate and already recognises letters and numbers- she’s desperate to do what her 6 year old brother is doing although he is in no rush himself, prefers to get his information from David Attenborough and asking endless questions than from a book! Friends tell me girls are quicker off the mark than boys. I find them both such good company and am forever grateful that they only live 3 fields away.
Just another possibility is home education. My son was very bright. When he moved into the 1-2 age room at nursery I told the nursery nurse that he knew his numbers and letters. After a few sessions she called me aside and said she wanted to show me something. She pointed out various letters on the advent calendar on the wall and he identified them all. She beamed saying, 'he knows all his letters!' and I replied, 'I did warn you!'.
Turns out loads of parents say their kids know there letters when what they mean is they know that abc song, they have no idea what letters are and what they mean. 🤷♀️
So when our local really lovely village school had their open afternoon I took him up. We suspected Aspergers (now called high functioning autism) and weren't sure the school could handle a very bright kid that was different. She watched him play for a while and suggested that if we were at all interested in home education that we should do that, because she knew the teachers and the head that was taking over the following year and she didn't think the school would suit him. So we decided to home educate.
My son's best friend was even better at reading. She had hyperlexia and started school reading newspapers, adult books and so on. But she didn't really understand what she was reading. I did question why they were sending her to school. By Christmas she was so stressed they took her out and started home educating too.
The two kids had a ball, as did us mums. They were structured and she did 'lessons' every day. I was autonomous, we followed my son's lead as to what and how he wanted to learn. I expected he would do the 11+ and go to the local grammar school. But it was clear he would never pass it. We went down the first page of questions and he deconstructed every one to say why they were the wrong questions!
My friend's daughter went to college and did GCSEs and A levels and went off to Cambridge. My son sadly ended up with chronic fatigue, so has never been able to exams, but his knowledge astounds me. And I am essentially still home educating him, only at PhD level. I am doing a PhD and we often read together and discuss my work with him!
So don't be afraid to consider home education, it doesn't have to happen now, it can happen at any time, and it doesn't have to be for ever, some bright kids stay in primary school for the first few years but then come out to be educated at home for a couple of years before secondary school.
And in addition to Mensa, you might like to suggest to them the NAGC which has rebranded itself as Potential Plus UK. My husband's parents joined the NAGC when he was a kid, for the same reasons that we joined when my son was a kid, and it was a really good place to be because you didn't have the boasting problems of the school gate. No one boasted at how clever their kids were because they all were, and we could just be parents there.
Yes I know what you mean but the munchkin can recognise words out of context she sounds them out then says the full word. Since she was a baby the son and DIL put post it notes on items like cupboard, stair, mirror etc and numbered cards on their stairs. Changed the number around but she counted them as she went up and down. I used to think it was silly but now wonder if it made her more aware of numbers and letters so more confident. The help you've given is very gratefully received and will be passed on as I think they are both still a bit frightened in a way.
I can definitely empathise with your last sentence! We have 2 older grandsons who live at a distance from us so we don’t see them very often. We also have 5 year old twin granddaughters who live close by and we pick them up from school once a week. They are delightful and very entertaining, they never stop talking, but we are quite glad to deliver them back to their parents at tea time!
I'd hold fast and resist upward movement, at least for now. At Age 2, reading began for me. By Age 6, bumped up 2 grades. By Age 15, heading from state college to university. Never got a chance to "grow up" as a person. Minimal social activities - sports, dances, graduation with peers, etc. Many troubles adjusting to adulthood, always feeling like an outlier. As some have opined, allow her to be a child ... overly bright, but a kid. The teacher, as a professional educator, should be the one to adjust.
That is very interesting as my son and DIL are very outdoor and thats a really important issue. My son is Group Scout Leader and the GD goes with him to Squirrels as fun is part of childhood so far I suppose learning is fun but if it became an enforced chore then things might be very sad. x
I live in Covent Garden. Right off Drury Lane. (No. I haven’t seen the muffin man!) But i also live right over a Primary School. 231 kids. The noise is unbearable. Screaming all bloody day & the pe teacher shouts. He’s recently been using a whistle too. He shouts & blasts his whistle as if he’s traing the SAS. I’m sorry. I have to say. I’m really not a ‘fan’ of kids. I’ve just been reminded of an annoying boy at my school. His hand would go up straight away. Always knew the answers. But even our teacher would find him annoying. I think he became a lawyer. He did very well for himself. But i’m sorry. Quite frustrating for the other kids!
You must be very proud l went to a good private school but on a scholarship perhaps the school may have a similar that the her parents could ask for advice about that it may be available. I did miss my friend bur still saw them after school and weekends . Hope they sort it out
Oh how wonderful. Definitely talent to be nurtured and cared for. One of the main problems with bright children is often that they need to emotional support related to their age, but their ability to absorb knowledge and use it is above average. She may meet the criteria for special funding, or outside school support - potentialplusuk.org/
I have a grandson who is six years old and full of curiosity. I love when he visits, but we are both exhausted when he goes!
How wonderful to have such a clever and delightful granddaughter. As an ex-teacher having worked in both private and state prep and secondary schools I offer some thoughts.
I suggest you discuss with her parents whether a private school could be a possibility if she were to get a bursary or scholarship to help with fees.
If she stays in the same school, even if she advances by a year, there is the possibility that she will get so frustrated with things being too easy that she could "switch off to learning" and possibly even misbehave. The Headteacher's statement that the school may not be able to meet her needs is almost a certainty as they would have to find the funds for extra SEN support to challenger her and that could be a problem for them. Advancing a year may create problems for her with developing friendships with the new classmates so you will all need to be on the lookout for that.
If moving her is not a possibility then some extra tuition out of school to satisfy her intellectual curiosity would be a good idea. Someone else suggested contacting MENSA for advice and that's a very good idea. Encouraging her to read widely, write stories and poetry and learning and practising coding could give her some challenges to work at. She could also try learning to play an instrument and have lessons to get her started. The descant recorder would probably be a good first instrument to learn for her small hands or a glockenspiel but you could ask her school's music teacher for advice.
Thank you I’m sending all this information to my son and DIL. It’s so lovely to read of things that may help as I admit she is so quick and as my son said they don’t even know how she knows some things. I used to think her memory was good but it’s beyond good it is just sort of different. If that makes sense? It’s having a conversation with an adult just one that is aged 4 or I’m nearly 5 as she likes to point out. As there is a very good riding school near us I’ve asked does she want to have lessons? It might be something she’ll enjoy, just because it is to do with animals. She does like music and dancing so that is a really good idea. I think keeping her interested and involved is good advice as she does have great powers of concentration when drawing and painting and the pictures are usually recognisable. A tree does look like a tree and houses are houses, dogs and horses the same. And we buy so many colouring in books that she completes sitting at the table. She doesn’t need help just has an obsession with ones that have Paw Patrol characters in. She also counts everything, even how many buttons are in a bag as she had to share them with grandad. She clearly didn’t trust him to share but then again neither would I !xx
They started that before we all went to France in June. They’d bought flash cards in French and seen once didn’t need to see again. Knew the word without the picture. Took grandad shopping for glacé and a game for the beach. The “did you know” start of a conversation always amuses me and “ I can show you” ! Xx
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