1 Yr on pBAT Results

[KocoPr]

Hi fellow warriors.

After one year of Orgovyx and Darolutamide and still hormone sensitive i decided to change to a testosterone propionate BAT protocol (Russ' Protocol)

Here is a graph of my PSA numbers. all the peaks were taken after or during high T cycle.

The Highest Peak is 2.46 and lowest 0.03 was my NADIR after one year of ADT.

The basic protocol I am using is approx two weeks on High T then two weeks Daro+Orgo.

I on;y take the orgo during low T and so far my T is under 20ng/dl every time.

I also take Osterine 10mg and Carderine 10mg/day during daro+Orgo cycle.

Every single CMP/diff and CBC are perfect. Lipid panel is also fine.

This is exactly what I was hoping for is to keep the beast fed on T but caged.

Last High T cycle I started taking Olaparib 150mg BID for just the first week of that cycle and will continue that routine for now.

[KocoPr]

Here is the RAW data of my PSA values Green is High T and beige is Low T cycle

PSA Data

[joedancer in reply to KocoPr]

This is great news KocoPr. Those test results look very good to me. BAT is a treatment I want to learn more about. In my case leuprolide alone worked for over 6 years, however, it looks like I've just become castration resistant, as my PSA has recently risen significantly with being on leuprolide alone. I just completed 4 months of docetaxel (first time on chemotherapy), however, PSA is still very high. I've not begun any of the additional hormonal agents (abiraterone, enzalutamide, etc.) as of yet. It looks like BAT may be an option for me at this point. Does anyone have information on oncologists in Florida that may utilize BAT? Thanks.

[KocoPr in reply to joedancer]

Here is a clinical trials using BAT for castrate resistant PCa along ng with Radium223 called BAT-RAD

clinicaltrials.gov/study/NC...

[joedancer in reply to KocoPr]

Thank you KocoPr. I appreciate the information. I hope the BAT continues to work well.

[Ramp7]

Looking good. Mine became less clear as time went on. This is a good explanation from Ed Friedman. researchgate.net/publicatio...

[KocoPr in reply to Ramp7]

Can you fix the link?

[Ramp7 in reply to KocoPr]

researchgate.net/publicatio...

[KocoPr in reply to Ramp7]

How do you sign up to research gate? It requires an institution

[Ramp7 in reply to KocoPr]

I was able to access, no sign up

[cujoe in reply to KocoPr]

just click on the download and ignore the "join for free" box.

[6357axbz]

what benefit do you get from cycling high T?

[KocoPr in reply to 6357axbz]

Two benefits; delay of castrate resistant , quality of life, oh and one more that is used by SOC BAT and it is very important is to resensitize to enzalutamide, appalutamide, and darolutamide.

[Hidden in reply to KocoPr]

Yes, you keep AR at the pretreated level, AR will not have the time to perform ampflificaton or copy gain, the ARSi will always work. Perfect!

[KocoPr in reply to Hidden]

Your a perfect example to resensitizing enzalutamide. Good work!

[Maxone73 in reply to KocoPr]

I might have to look into this seriously. Hopefully there will soon be some genetic profile that will help to identify people who would benefit from BAT. Do you know anyone doing bat with daro?

[Hidden in reply to Maxone73]

BAT will work for everybody who is not T-NEPC, approx 20% will develop this subtype where the cells are no longer dependent on AR signalling. If the NSE level is higher than 20 and rising this is probably the case.

[Maxone73 in reply to Hidden]

Great! Source?

[KocoPr in reply to Maxone73]

A lot of are doing it with daro.

Daro needs 6 days to clear the body so we hit the body with high T on 5th or 6th day. We also use testosterone propianate as non SoC but with the blessing of our OC. My use of Osterine and cardarine during my daro/Orgo cycle are also non SoC.

Mateobeach uses testosterone cypionate which is SoC.

The difference between cyp and prop is half life. Cyp takes apprx 30 days to clear and prop takes 2 days to completely clear. So one injection/month compared to one injection every other day.

Propionate is usually a two week cycle where cyp is a 30 day cycle.

If you want to start it i would suggest propionate for two weeks then daro for two weeks then check your PSA after both cycles. Maybe better to do a couple of complete cycles to see if you are a responder.

[Maxone73 in reply to KocoPr]

convincing my MO would be hard and without him behind me I could not get the testosterone or anything else, that’s why I was looking into some study. Question: is it for when you become castration resistance to resensitize or is it used also while hormone sensitive?

[Hidden in reply to Maxone73]

I live in Norway,,strictly forbidden to import testosterone. But there is a solution, you can use Testogel. I have a MD friend who issued the prescription. Having access to Enza I could treat myself. In the meantime the MO finally accepted.

[KocoPr in reply to Maxone73]

I get my own T-prop no subscription.

There sre no trials for hormone sensitive, although i could be wrong on that. If i am someone will chime in 😂

The SoC is for castrate resistant so once you become resistant you can try resensitizing which works for 1/3 of patients. Best to get ahead of the curve in my opinion and do it while still hormone sensitive. You don’t want to be the other 2/3rds.

You can chat me up for more details.

[Manilo in reply to KocoPr]

What sequence would you do if you have enanthate 200 injections, enzalutamide, and androgel 0.05g. I am on Enza since 6 months ago, still works. Lowered PSA from 8 to 1 with ENza and SBRT to all spine mets.

Should I stop Enza and begin testosterone or wait some time to begin testosterone?

Thanks

[Nfler in reply to Maxone73]

Testosterone is readily available thru trt nation, Hone and a bunch of others, is relatively inexpensive at about $50/ mo as Dr write rx as long as psa is below 4 and bloodwork all checks out. I assume once trx is working after 6 mos your mo will probably jump on board and continued tests n rx can be continued…

[Maxone73 in reply to Nfler]

Remember that I live in Italy

[Nfler in reply to Maxone73]

You should still be able to get it as these are licensed drs I think worldwide per each country

[Hidden in reply to Maxone73]

It is for resensitizing - reduce the AR buildup back to the pretreated level, then ARSi works again.

[Manilo in reply to KocoPr]

What if I only have Enanthate 250 injections, Androgel 0.05 g, and Enzalutamide.

It is not the best but it is what I have.

I have been 6 months on Enza, still working. PSA went down from 8 to 1, also have done SBRT to all 4 spine oligomets. Asymptomatic now.

How would you start BAT with what I have? Stop ENZA, Then the gels or injections, when and how much ?

Thank you

I am a bit confused

And when to measure testosterone and PSA ?

[KocoPr in reply to Manilo]

I don’t know about enanthate and androgel but if you get this kindle $2.00 book by Russ and search this site with “BAT” you will find much more info .

Here is a recent thread on Russ’ book

healthunlocked.com/fight-pr...

[Hidden in reply to Manilo]

In this trial enanthate was used:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[Maxone73 in reply to Hidden]

"We have also observed that response rates to BAT are higher in patients whose tumors harbor mutations in genes involved in homologous recombination repair (HRR)" now this is interesting for me

[Hidden in reply to Maxone73]

Also d’ont forget Indomethacin in the ARSi phase, prevents resistance by suppressing AKR1C3 - Aldo keto reductase. 😅

aacrjournals.org/cancerres/...

[Maxone73 in reply to Hidden]

I was thinking about using artemisinin like 7-10 days per month for that

[Maxone73 in reply to Hidden]

nature.com/articles/s42004-...

[KocoPr in reply to Maxone73]

Excellent article! I am digesting it

[Manilo in reply to Hidden]

Thank you. Those trials on BAT do not alternate with an ARSi. I will make a decision this week. Will try to switch to DARO from ENZA and also get some propionate somewhere and do my own BAT protocol with what I have and where I am

[Hidden in reply to Manilo]

The New STEP-UP trial alternates, that is the concept.

[Hidden]

Yes, always source!

ejnmmires.springeropen.com/...

[Maxone73 in reply to Hidden]

interesting, but...are you sure it's the right link?

[Hidden in reply to Maxone73]

Concerning NSE, yes. My MD has measured NSE and AR-V7. After BAT NSE has dropped from 19 to 14, indicating reversal of the T-NEPC development, AR-V7 is no 0. I use Indo to stay that way.

[32Percenter]

Couple questions on this:

Your PSA is making higher lows with each cycle. Is this not indicative of some growing resistance to testosterone suppression/ADT?

While on Darolutamide, the drug is sitting in the androgen receptors of your cells and preventing androgens from binding to them. During your Daro portion aren't your SARMS being blocked from binding to the receptors as well, i.e. you're wasting them?

[KocoPr in reply to 32Percenter]

Good questions and one us BAT warriors also question. the slight rises in psa during the daro cycle is up for debate but my PSA did drop from last daro from 0.67 to 0.50 which is an indication BAT cycles are working.

[PCaWarrior in reply to KocoPr]

Yeah. Lots of questions. My PSA is low and I'm 7 years post a diagnosis of 2-4 years. But was it pBAT that did it? rBAT, Zytiga, tE2, casodex, SBRT, luck?

So, without BAT would your PSA be higher or lower? Just guesses.

[NPfisherman]

KP,

Tremendous post on your plan and numbers at 1 yr... your lows of .05-.07 for the time period from early August to late November.....that's impressive..... I would say that the book was an excellent investment... Thank you for laying it all out there....

We have advanced beyond the science, forum members....Individuals sharing is all that we have available (personal case presentation)... Seeking a treatment change, or on vacation looking at an addition to your next razzle dazzle plan, perhaps something to consider....... It makes me ponder how this fits into my own plan, and how to add it... part of breaking resistance is through DNA breakage and apoptosis...

But for now, letting sleeping dogs lie can make sense too..( at least that's what CuJoe told me ) A somatic test may be in order for me, if I need to revisit my plan..

DD

[Bhraen2]

Great results. I had a great response to zytiga and had an undetectable psa and clean scans for 30 months and have been on a treatment break for 9 months. psa is rising and when I go back on treatment I plan on implementing PBAT. My question is since I’ve been a great responder to zytiga should I use it during my adt phase? I see that everyone is using darolutamide which I think is quicker acting and has less side effects. I am Gleason 9 and not sure if darolutamide will be as effective for my cancer. I’ve followed Russ for a long time and remember he was using zytiga during adt phase in his earlier cycles a few years ago. I would appreciate any insight or feedback some of you on PBAT might have. Thank you

[PCaWarrior in reply to Bhraen2]

I'm probably going to use Zytiga with Daro, D alone, Z alone. I need to do more studying on Z. Does it or any of its metabolites antagonize the ARs? One of them does but I think it clears within a few days. And one of them apparently is an AR agonist.

Does anyone have answer to that?

[MateoBeach]

Excellent thanks for sharing.

[PCaWarrior]

You might consider starting the Orgovyx a couple days prior to going hi T and then continuing for a few days. You want orgo to be fully active when you slam T in.