gut bacteria

[poodlebell]

Its all about pacing when you have CFS, I had a poo test done and could not understand the results so asked a retired doctor and he said that he does not believe in the bacteria causing problems and says CFS is in the brain and hard to treat, its a mild form of depression, there is a lot now on bacteria in the gut and this causing CFS, but he did say that I should have 50% carbs, 30% protein and 20% fat a day, I added it up and I have 17% protein and this can cause a lot of the CFS problems, has anyone else found this

[Mandypandy1969]

Do you mean chronic fatigue syndrome. I have bipolar aswell which doubles my depression. Doesn't take much to bring me down which has happened today after going to the advice centre being brutally told home truths about how I will be treated at my tribunal due to the loss of my e.s.a.

[bertie1606]

CFS/ME is not in the mind or a form of depression! You can have depression alongside it like alot of sufferers do but don't ever believe it's in the mind. I don't know about the bacteria thing, they're still trying to work out what causes CFS/ME

[E3178]

Hi, I have found that there is a lot of problems if your gut is not right.

I have reduced my sugar intake as much as possible and take a good probiotic every day. I also take a vegetable based digestive enzyme with most meals and it has helped my ibs.

[poodlebell]

Hi

thanks for replies, this is what I have been reading on the gut

SNR #105: Prof. John Cryan - Sigma Nutrition & Performance

sigmanutrition.com/episode105

John F. Cryan is Professor & Chair, Dept. of Anatomy & Neuroscience, University College Cork. He is a Principal Investigator in the APC Microbiome Institute. He was a ...

the gut seems to be involved in many things and a lot of attention is being put into it, I don't think that cfs is in the brain but do wonder on the fear being stored in the brain and when you have a bad day its hard not to worry about another bad day. I think E3178 is right on changing the diet.

[jackie4ball]

I have been reading a lot about the gut bacteria and diet we eat causing a lot of health problems I have just tried kefir which was in Sainsbury’s and really like it it is a yoghurt type drink which can be drunk or added onto cereal but is very good for the gut also tried kombucha bought a couple of bottles from a health food shop it’s a fermented green tea I did order from amazon before I found the ones in health food shop and they are supposed to be blueberry flavoured but taste more like vinegar so have to be an acquired taste I think 50% carbs is a bit high it should be high fruit and veg followed by protein the carbs at the bottom I think. Watched a programme on carbs on bbc1 last week didn’t realise how much stuff has carbs in it. Very surprising. If you try the kefir you can get plain Asda have a litre carton for £1.40 you can add fruit to it and a bit of honey of the ones in Sainsbury’s have some flavours the morello cherry is nice not so keen on the turmeric and whatever was with it. Although turmeric is great for lots of things I have some turmeric latte which I haven’t yet tried as I opened it and the smell was horrible but will get round to it and give it s go as I will try anything to try and help my pain. Trying to stay away from all processed foods and having juices etc. Sauerkraut and any fermented food is also supposed to be very good for the gut health as well seems if your gut is healthy it can help other parts of your body and help lose weight.

Hugs Jackie

[poodlebell in reply to jackie4ball]

Hi

thanks for this comment, most probiotics make me feel ill but I know that its a case of getting past that bit, and probably doing me good so need to try again, Kefir is about the best, but on my test results it has lots of different strains of bacteria and am going to try and fathom out which ones I really need, I am high in some and low in others.

This was what really started me on the gut health

drchatterjee.com/ibs-stress... Episode 20: IBS, Stress and Gut Health with Professor John ... drchatterjee.com Dr Chatterjee talks to Professor John Cryan, world-leading researcher on the gut-brain axis and Professor of Anatomy & Neuroscience about how the connection

I don't know why it does not come up as a link but if you type in the drchatterjee etc it should come up

wish you all well and a good day

[jackie4ball]

Might be worth checking out kombucha and/or sauerkraut anything is worth a go.

Good luck

Jackie

[poodlebell in reply to jackie4ball]

Hi Jackie

are you any good at reading test results

[jackie4ball]

Would have probably been able to years ago but not anymore. Xxx

[poodlebell in reply to jackie4ball]

Hi Jackie

I do hope others read this, I have been trying to read my results with the help of google and one is high and its the carbs and sugar, which I know from calories counting I am high in, the other two are high pseudaflavonifractor and low in faecalibacterium prausnitzil and I have found the article below, need to read it a lot more times to take it all in but think its worth doing, wont be today as worn out now

Decreasing Pseudoflavonifractor capillosus

In Ian Lipkin et al 2017 study, high Pseudoflavonifractor capillosus was reported (on average). [Index to all posts on Study] Well, we have just 4 articles in total on PubMed. One of the articles cited that it was the bacteria formerly known as Bacteroides capillosus. With just one result

•“Increased with proton pump inhibitors” [2016]

Relaxing the search criteria, we found 39 articles. “This genus [Pseudoflavonifractor] is one of the most prominent butyrate producers, providing energy to the colonic mucosa and known to regulate gene expression, inflammation, differentiation, and apoptosis in host cells (Luo et al., 2013).”

•Phosphorus in diet increases [2016]

•B. capillosus strongly stimulated rat mast cells to histamine secretion [2000] — so this may be a contributor to histamine issues with CFS. (see this post)

Antibiotics

While usually not preferred, we do have some information on which ones may be effective:

•Moxifloxacin — 67% of strains are resistant [2008]

•” Both faropenem and imipenem had MICs of < or=4 micro g/ml for all isolates of Bacteroides capillosus (10 isolates), ” [2002]

•“All beta-lactamase-positive strains were found to be susceptible to imipenem and chloramphenicol….beta-Lactamase-positive Bacteroides strains showed 95% susceptibility to metronidazole and rifampicin; 90% susceptibility to piperacillin and cefoxitin; 85% susceptibility to tetracycline and erythromycin; 80% susceptibility to clindamycin and amoxycillin/clavulanic acid, and 76% susceptibility to ticarcillin.” [1999]

•“Against beta-lactamase-producing strains of the Bacteroides fragilis group, B. capillosus, and Prevotella species all combinations of ceftriaxone and tazobactam showed enhanced in vitro activity and were eight- to 2048-fold more active than ceftriaxone alone.” [1994] ◦“All of the beta-lactamase-producing bacteroides strains were sensitive to a combination of amoxycillin with clavulanic acid (Augmentin).” [1990]

•“chlorofluoroquinolone, BAY y 3118.. All strains of Bacteroides capillosus, Prevotella spp., Porphyromonas spp., Fusobacterium spp., Clostridium spp., Eubacterium spp., Peptostreptococcus spp., and Veillonella parvula were susceptible” [1994]

•“Biapenem was also active against all of the B. capillosus, Prevotella, Clostridium, and Eubacterium strains and anaerobic cocci tested. Against all of the anaerobes tested, biapenem was 32- and 4-fold more active than clindamycin and metronidazole, respectively. ” [1994]

•“Bacteroides capillosus) were resistant to penicillin, but none were resistant to clindamycin.” [1990]

•“Bacteroides capillosus and Bacteroides ruminicola subsp. ruminicola) in the high sucrose diet (Diet-2000) group increased with time; those in the tetracycline group decreased with time.” [1989] — reduce sugar intake

•“Azlocillin, mezlocillin, and cefoxitin had comparable activities, with resistance among members of the B. fragilis group and B. capillosus.” [1984]

•Antibiotic resistance B. capillosus is resistant to benzylpenicillin (2 units), kanamycin (1mg) and neomycin (1mg) but sensitive to erythromycin and rifampicin [Book 2014]

Herbs and Spices — nothing found 😦

Overfed?

Bacteria need food to grow. Other bacteria could be overproducing food that it needs.

•Pseudoflavonifractor capillosus it is class IV alcohol dehydrogenase [2016] from ethanol [1994]

This lead me to:

•” Highest amounts of ethanol were produced by S. cerevisiae, L. fermentum, and W. confusa on glucose and by S. cerevisiae and W. confusa on fructose. Due to mannitol-dehydrogenase expressed in L. fermentum, ethanol production on fructose was significantly (P < 0.05) reduced. Pyruvate and citrate, two potential electron acceptors for regeneration of NAD+/NADP+, drastically reduced ethanol production with acetate produced instead in L. fermentum grown on glucose and W. confusa grown on glucose and fructose, respectively. In fecal slurries prepared from feces of four overweight volunteers, ethanol was found to be produced upon addition of fructose. Addition of A. caccae, L. acidophilus, L. fermentum, as well as citrate and pyruvate, respectively, abolished ethanol production.” [2016]

And thus speculative:

•Reduce sucrose, glucose and fructose in your diet.

•L. Fermentum probiotics (available)

•Taking magnesium citrate or other citrate supplements. Ditto for pryuvate.

Bottom Line

Faecalibacterium and Pseudoflavonifractor are both butyrate producers. In CFS the Faecalibacterium is low and Pseudoflavonifractor is high. The only available treatment appears to be antibiotics. No herbs, spices, supplements or diet impact studies could be located. My own path would be to take the items above and intersect them with Cecile Jadin’s protocol — we have some items in common, such as:

•Tetracyclines (my favorite in minocycline)

•Augmentin

•etc

THIS IS NOT MEDICAL ADVICE — this post is an education summary of what has been reported on PubMed. Always consult with a knowledgeable medical professional before changing diet, supplements and prescription drugs.

Clinical Studies Desired

In this very simple:

•Ten patients in each group with uBiome done before. 2 weeks on one of the antibiotics suggested. 2 weeks later, another uBiome. ◦Hopeful outcome: which antibiotics have the best impact on Faecalibacterium and Pseudoflavonifractor. ◾Expected to find 1 in 5 being a double positive change.

•Same as above, but taking Lactobacillus Fermentum for a month

[jackie4ball]

Wow that’s a lot of info, I have been trying to follow a juice diet and cutting out processed foods as I have watched quite a few documentaries and things that say that some health conditions can be cured or even helped I will go for some help with pain if anything works I feel it’s worth trying things out and see if it helps in any way at all at the end of the day what do we have to lose. I have lost weight by juicing so that is a bonus only just started trying the kefir as found it in the supermarket and the kombucha was in a local health food shop haven’t tried sauerkraut yet though. I do feel a lot of foods we eat play a part in some health issues and have heard of it transforming people’s lives by removing certain foods. Again I am no health expert but following some things may help it’s all trial and error and probably wise to just try one thing at a time. The kefir I tried is very nice it was a flavoured one although I think if you bought the natural and added some fresh fruit to it it would be quite nice. It reminds of the first time I tasted yoghurt in my teens and it took me awhile to get used to it. I hope you find something that helps you.

Hugs to you

Jackie