how to make embryos

[Dragonfly1111]

Hi All,

I hope everyone is aswell as can be on this crazy rollercoaster. I just wanted to ask for some advice as I find this forum a huge source of knowledge, compassion and experience.

I am 32 with a history of Tubo ovarian abscesses leading to both tubes being removed. Source of PID never identified. AMH 3 years ago was 12.

Partner’s sperm ‘super sperm’ - not had dna frag test with consultant saying results won’t change anything.

1st round gonal f (highest dose ?450) resulted in 13 eggs only 7 mature and total fertilisation failure with IVF.

2nd round merifet (also highest dose) 10 eggs, 8 mature 4x fertilised with ICSI resulted in 1x D6 5bb which was frozen. Oestradial was also 30,000 with Drs confused expecting ++high egg numbers. I tried +++ healthy lifestyle/acupuncture.

Medicated FET last month thrilled that embryo defrosted well and resulted in chemical pregnancy with + faint line fading by day 13.

Dr is saying there is obviously a significant difficulty forming embryos and our numbers are +poor with unknown reason. Mentioned PGT testing but said ? Worth it as our embryo numbers are so poor.

We are in fortunate position to pay privately for a 3rd round. Plan to stay our NHS clinic as much cheaper/they know us.

Guess my questions are:

1). Should we be looking at other clinics will this change our results?

2). should we try PGT testing?

3). are there any add ons e.g picsi/aoa that would be helpful (our consultant is talking to a colleague about these)

4). Has anyone else had PID and it impacted egg quality and if so was there anything you could do about this?

5). Is there any success in +strict healthy lifestyles or is this just me trying to take some control of the situation?

6).. should we have the dna frag test just to give more information?

Thank you so much for reading. We are at that age that everyone around us is having babies and I can’t help but thinking I’m going to be the person it just isn’t going to work for with the stats getting worse every time every time another baby comes along - or is this me self sabotaging and it won’t work because I have this negative mindset?

Anyway sorry for my ramblings. Thank you x

[Twiglet2]

hi lovely has the embryologist given any reason for the non fertilisation of the eggs? ICSI did seem to help but I would probs just do the fragmentation test if it’s not too long/expense to rule that in or out. I defo found quality improved of my eggs with coq10 at 600mg for 3 months before collection for nothing else really made a difference for me (in fact diet etc made it worse!). Defo wouldn’t PGTA though given the number of embryos you are getting

Ps negative mindset won’t change anything both of my miracles have came along when I believed it would happen the least!!! It’s just how we deal with or emotions and protect our feelings so none of this is in you 💜🤗 but the more relaxed you can be about it all I do think helps (as in if given up so much I wasn’t postive or negative mindset by the time it happened!) xx

[Dragonfly1111 in reply to Twiglet2]

Hi Twiglet2, thank you so much for your reply. I am taking Coq10 but only 200mg so can defiantly increase it. That is so interesting about diet and think I am defiantly going to relax and enjoy foods and maybe even a few drinks over Christmas. Thank you also for your mindset comments - that is really reassuring it hear! Xxx

[soccerkt6]

Hi lovely,

I agree with Twiglet that it's worth getting the DNA frag test just so you know for certain whether it's an issue or not. Something like 10-15% of men who have normal results on their semen analysis still have high DNA frag, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that there could be a problem with the sperm. Plus, even if your clinic might not do anything differently with a high frag result, you could (and should!) see a private urologist if that ends up being the case in order to try to figure out the root cause of the high frag and fix it. xx

[Dragonfly1111 in reply to soccerkt6]

Thank you very much for your reply and dna drag is something we are going to look into. I find it so confusing all the different schools of thoughts out there! Xxx

[Olive12345]

We got 0 blasts twice. We’re psyching ourselves up to go again. For background we have one child naturally and have been pregnant naturally four times. Nobody understands why it happened.

I've decided to focus on nutrition. Adding nutrients rather than taking away, although I already don't really eat processed food! I add nuts at breakfast, egg, avocado or salmon at lunch, add extra legumes at tea. (when I had my little boy, that's the diet I was following but it has changed/worsened since). I have low ferritin which seems to be implicated in infertility so I also supplement that. Choline also seemed to be important and is recommended in pregnancy in the US so I supplement that.

Calcium ionophore is an ivf add on that improves fertilisation and some research suggests blasts. Might be worth looking into that. Calcium is also given to chickens to make their eggs better and generally fertility diet advice includes full fat dairy. So, I've also supplemented calcium because I don't eat much dairy - can't take it at the same time as iron though!

I also had PID from childbirth that went untreated for many years. Nobody seems to think it affected egg quality and we’re classed as male factor despite the fact my tubes were blocked 🤷‍♀️

I don't know about the frag test. My husband’s numbers are poor across the board but his fragmentation test was fine! The Drs don't seem to believe the result though and have recommended picsi so I'd say it is probably not worth the cost but every situation is different!

Not sure if that's any use but hopefully something in there helps!

[Dragonfly1111 in reply to Olive12345]

Hi Olive12345, thank you very much for your reply and sorry to hear about the previous rounds - it is such a gruelling process. I don’t know about you but I find the not knowings really hard to accept. Sounds like you are making lots of healthy additions with your food. I haven’t heard of choline so will look it up. I have spoken to the head of our lab today and chatted through picsi and calcium ionophor which was really helpful. Thank you for your insight into the dna frag that is really interesting and sounds similar to my clinics thoughts.

Thank you again!

[HelzBelzUK]

I would definitely get a DNA fragmentation test on your husbands sperm. Our U.K. clinic said my husband’s was amazing and his DNA frag was through the roof.

Also I think your stims dose is far too high.. I don’t know why uk clinics are intent on frying everyone’s eggs xx

You could also ask if they use the zymot chamber. Our clinic now in Greece uses ICSI as standard but adds on the zymot chamber to improve fertilisation xx Good luck

[Dragonfly1111 in reply to HelzBelzUK]

Hi HelzBelzUK, thank you for your reply. I have a feeling this may be the case with my partner. Yes they have said to try a lower dose on the next cycle - my ovaries certainly felt fried last time! Thank you I chatted to the lab today and spoke about Zymot chamber so thank you for the suggestion! X

[HelzBelzUK in reply to Dragonfly1111]

You’re welcome xx my consultant uses double stims to even out the follicles so maybe you could discuss this too?? xx Good luck xx

[Dragonfly1111 in reply to HelzBelzUK]

Oh thank you - I haven’t heard of double stims what is this? Xx

[HelzBelzUK in reply to Dragonfly1111]

This current cycle i’ve done gonal f 300iu and meriofert 150iu. Rather than just blasting my eggs with high doses of one stim.

It evens out the follicles more doing dual stimulation. Then I done double trigger which helps maturity xx

[Dragonfly1111 in reply to HelzBelzUK]

Thank you will defiantly ask about this as also seem to read about it lots on here! I asked my clinic before about double trigger and they didn’t feel it was needed/something they use very frequently x

[Beclp]

might be just my case but I always had worse results the higher the dose of FSH. As soon as it was lowered right down I got less eggs but better embryo outcomes.

I felt the high dose just forced too many eggs out that ended up not being great quality whereas lower doses seems to grow the eggs slower and better

That’s just my experience

Best of luck 🤞

[Dragonfly1111 in reply to Beclp]

Hi Beclp, thank you for your reply. Yes the more I read I think that maybe the dose was too high. Next round they are lowering the dose so 🤞 for better outcomes. Thank you again!

[Dragonfly1111]

Hi, just as a follow up for anyone reading back over this (as have found it helpful reading over previous posts) we have just finished our 3rd round which was even worse.

This time I stimmed for 10x days on 300 menopur (clinic didn’t do fuel stims) - 6x eggs received and PICSI used. Only 1x egg fertilised that stopped growing on day 3.

Not sure on next moves.