I initially started taking B1 HCL orally, on the magical quest to find my optimal level, which I failed to do over a year and a half. I came to the conclusion that since I was often more or less constipated, as many Parkinsonians are, I would never be able to find that level, as it varied based upon how constipated I was. So I decided to try sublingual B1.
However, I was recently informed that B1 100 mg Sublingual tablets do not exist, but that B1 tablets described as "microlingual" or "easy melting" do. I'm assuming that those who claim success using "sublinguals" actually mean one of those.
A couple of questions :
- I've noticed that these "easy melting" pills do melt easily, but they're not quickly absorbed from under the tongue. They mix with saliva and the B1 in the solution is very gradually absorbed over at least an hour. It's my understanding that Thiamine Mononitrate, which is used in these tablets, can be bad for the digestive system. So does that mean that I shouldn't swallow what is left of the weakened Thiamine Mononitrate /Saliva solution?
- Since Thiamine Mononitrate is potentially toxic, why not simply use Thiamine HCL 100 mg pills, since the remaining solution containing the B1 HCL canbe swallowed since it's harmless to the digestive system? There's no need to spit the remainder out. Dissolving the gelatin casing of these pills adds a bit of time, but the absorption rate is the same as it is for the mononitrate.
Thanks.
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It seems that there’s a lot of misinformation out there about microlingual vs. sublingual B1, with much of the confusion originating from the Facebook group ‘Parkinson’s Thiamine HCl’. The administrator of the group is a former member of this forum. Unfortunately he is dispersing inconsistent, confusing and in some cases completely incorrect information about the B1 protocol. Myself and others have tried to correct him on his errors, but he won’t listen and bans any users who disagree with him from that group.
Do yourself a favor and join the Facebook group called ‘Parkinson’s B1 Therapy’. It is run by Daphne (also a member of this group) who has written an excellent book about the B1 protocol which is available on Amazon. Her Facebook group has a much more helpful tone, but more importantly the information being discussed on that group is much more accurate.
hi there. I went back to Dr Constantine’s original recommendations and on the number of people he treated , decided that it was the route to follow. I then researched more on B1 andcame across Dr Longsdale. Much inf to get my brain around.
Quote: “This suggests that the RDA requirement may be insufficient to meet the demands of modern living. Inasmuch as thiamine deficiency syndromes pose great risk of chronic morbidity, and if left untreated, mortality, a more comprehensive understanding of thiamine chemistry, relative to energy production, modern living, and disease, may prove useful.”
In my experience this energetic effect is mainly experienced at a cerebral rather than a physical level, i.e. with greater attention and recall efficiency which are skills more useful to students than to a PwP. This lasts a few hours but this gives an idea of what thiamin can do to brain cells acutely and can be a test. A restorative effect as defined by Dr C.
IMO The ‘nitrate’ form promotes sublingual absorption, but I am not a biochemist. There are several thiamine mononitrate products (see on IHerb) and it is used to enrich foods because it is a more stable form of thiamine than thiamine hcl.
You are correct, there is no such thing as a "sublingual" B1 thiamine. The microlingual version is not designed to be absorbed under the tongue, but is, via the intestines after quickly dissolving under the tongue. Microlingual is primarily offered for people that are intolerant to swallowing pills. I also saw that there was a back & forth discussion on this on FB with the admin named Roy, who is 100% correct in his findings regarding this. What I don't understand is why no one here does any due diligence & simply call the manufacturer for an answer, which I did. The manufacturer SuperiorSource told me what I said above. They said they make no claims to manufacturing a "sublingual" b1. And, as far as they knew, one does not exist. They also stated that their b1 is absorbed into the body by mainly the small intestines. If you believe otherwise, that's up to you. You may also call the manufacturer at 800-421-6175 & ask for Matthew to verify, or disagree with what they make. I just hope we can put this issue to rest.
Well …. for five years I’ve been taking tiny amounts of this particular sublingual B1, starting five years ago at 100mg a day. Over the years I have reduced the dose to 25mg every fifth day partly caused by my administration improving, I.e. I keep the melted tablet under my tongue for longer. I can’t imagine that, if these minuscule amounts went through my digestive system, very much would be left to cause the effect that happens with this therapy when the dose is right. My doctor said I was asymptomatic last week. I was diagnosed over 12 years ago. Proof in pudding as we say!
So your response to the claim that the manufacturer has confirmed that the product is not sublingually absorbed is to simply say that it must be becuase of how well you are doing?
Really? Perhaps you have a responsibility to research the matter slightly more thoroughly than that? Given all of the advice youve given and the book sales?
I’m sorry. It’s early here in Scotland and I’m bored of this debate going on and on (thanks to Roy). We have so many in the Facebook group benefitting from these ‘sublingual’ tablets, often experiencing overdose symptoms along the way on very small doses! There is no doubt in my mind that the diluted tablet passes through the mucous membrane into the bloodstream. It couldn’t possibly have that effect it has for hundreds of people, if it went through the digestion. But I will email the company…
12 years after diagnosis you are asymptomatic, and you attribute this to sublingual thiamine mononitrate, starting at 100 milligram dosage and then declining?
Yes, that is correct, but I must add I still take the levodopa meds which I was on when I started B1 which is 250mg per day.
Five years ago, on those meds, I still had rigidity, bradykinesia, no facial expression, an inability to play piano for more than five minutes and then very slowly, handwriting slow and small, and stiff walking leaning to the right,
After six months on B1 I was smiling to my eyes, no rigidity, no bradykinesia, walking relaxed and flowing with a spring in my step, handwriting fast and normal,size, and I was able to sit and play piano for an hour at a time. My brother’s just been to visit and remarked that I just get better and better!
in my opinion it is already in its chemical properties that is, thiamine mononitrate is the nitrated form of thiamine which has the ability to easily cross the sublingual mucosa. Thiamine mononitrate has always existed and is often used in foods because it is more stable than thiamine hcl. There are several brands on the web that sell it. I use the Solaray one which I prefer because it's in capsules and stays there under the tongue where you put it all the time but it's not divisible.
This Wikipedia quote might clarify:
"Many drugs are absorbed through sublingual administration, including cardiovascular drugs, steroids, barbiturates, benzodiazepines,[2] opioid analgesics, THC, CBD, some proteins and increasingly, vitamins and minerals."
…
”Pharmaceutical preparations for sublingual administration are manufactured in the form of:
Sublingual tablets—tablets which easily melt in the mouth, dissolve rapidly and with little or no residue. Nitroglycerine tablets are an example, the antiemetic ondansetron is another.”
I think the thing to remember is that it is possible to take the microlingual tablet ‘non-sublingually’ by swallowing it straight down. So perhaps we should stop considering the product and start discussing the way it is administered!
So now you are changing your story & stating that they are indeed not "sublingual" and are actually "microlingual" as claimed by the manufacturer? This is the main topic both here in this discussion and on FB, regarding this form of b1. It seems quite lofty that you wrote a book on this and never did your due diligence by even contacting the manufacturer of your hero cure before writing a book on it?
If you reread my comment, I did not say that it was not sublingual, I said that it was possible to take it in a sublingual way - by holding the dissolved tablet in the mouth for long enough for it to be absorbed through the tongue into the bloodstream, and to take it in a non-sublingual way - by swallowing right down immediately it has dissolved.
I’m saying it can be sublingual or non-sublingual (oral) depending on the method of administration… how you take it, whether you leave it dissolving under the tongue and passing through the mucous membrane to the bloodstream or whether you swallow it straight down.
Research has found that thiamine can pass through the mucous membrane in the cheek. If it can pass through the cheek and into the bloodstream it can pass through the tongue and into the bloodstream. sciencedirect.com/science/a...
superiorsourcevitamins.com/... states that the microlingual tablet dissolves instantly under the tongue. Anything which dissolves instantly into one’s saliva can pass through the mucous membrane.
That thiamine mononitrate is absorbed by the oral mucosa is so obvious that on Amazon the term sublingual is used by retailers. But what's the problem?
Stay strong Daphne and thank you for all you have done for the PD community. It's clear that many have benefited from the information shared in your book, and for that most of us are grateful. Sadly it seems that a small number of people have an alternative agenda that doesn't include helping people find relief from this horrible disease.
Rather than again having this back and forth debate, why don't you simply call the company that manufactures them. I have posted the # above and it is printed on the bottle. Speak with Matthew, one of the company's principals. Then tell him that they make a sublingual b1, in which he will tell you they don't. It's not stated on the packaging, and on their web site they also state to making no claims of being sublingual. Taking something sublingually/under the tongue, doesn't automatically make what your taking a sublingual candidate. You can put a rock under your tongue and say you took it sublingually, but the rock, like this b1, is not manufactured to sublingual standards. But, to go on referring to this b1 as sublingual is simply misleading and false. If it works for you that's great. I just don't understand why you can't call this b1 what it is, which is NOT sublingual.
"My own experience with B1 mononitrate is that 25mg every other day is what suits to me. I have been on B1 Hcl fore more than 4 years, and realized that i have been probably overdosing for all this time. I took a two weeks break and started on 50 mg/day and i quite recognised overdose symptoms quickly. Stoped a few days and restarted at 50 mg every other day. Clearly felt an improvment in symptoms and then got worse, overdosing again. Stoped for more 3 days and felt improvements again during one day. Restarted again at 25 mg every other day, and i can clearly see improvements in my walking, tremor, extended benefits from levodopa (more on time), and i had also to decreased levodopa, because i was getting some dyscnesia, which i didn't had since my FUS intervenction, 2 years ago."
I don't really care if micro, sub, HCL, i know that i take one specific product in an certain way, that Daphne explained in a very detailed way, i get real relief, and that is what matters here. And i probably didn't get more rellief earlier, because i considered Roy as an expertise on B1, and he was (is) always pushing very high doses as the therapeutical dose, so i tried to keep my dose as high i could support, which obviously is the wrong approach.
totally agree with your comments. Like you I read daphnes book chose to start on b1 “sublingual “ or whatever you want to call it and within weeks had huge successes. PD sufferers just want to feel as normal as possible and if this product works then why is Roy and his followers trying so hard to say it doesn’t work when is clearly does. For goodnes sake let’s all work together on this.
the microlingual tablets in my experience are much more potent than the HCL capsules. 100 mg of the mono nitrate, micro lingual, absorbs better however, that may be. Is it because we are taking them in a sub, lingual fashion? I don’t know. No one’s done any studies. We can call the manufacturer and get their exact lingo down, but it doesn’t change the fact that I had the absorption is different than oral capsule. Why is that? Personally, I can’t take more than 400 mg of the HCl capsules. I literally broke out into hives. I’ve had to take many breaks. A quarter tablet of the micro lingual a couple days a week has been working well. If I took the “therapeutic dose“ of the micro lingual tablets, I don’t even know what would happen, and I there’s no way I’m even going to try. Roy posted that it’s same as taking oral, but that’s not right. they are not apples to apples. Also (off topic)He doesn’t recommend Daphne‘s book because she doesn’t recommend the therapeutic dose which starts at 2 g. Not everyone can take 2plus grams or even work up to it. I don’t think I’m able to work up to it. Maybe over many years. Point is, we are all guinea pigs in this experiment. I think it’s best that we learn and listen to one another. Daphne is also donating all the proceeds to her book to research/go fund me site. We need to have research and trials done on B1. It is not a one stop shop one size fits all.
Hi there. Some people need to take increased minerals toenable B1 to work A Dr Longsdale writes about this. I believe it is called the refeeding syndrome.
Superior source replied to me about their ‘no shot B1’. Although they didn’t say it was a sublingual tablet specifically, I suppose it’s how you choose to administer it, they did say “they are made on the same machines as sublingual nitroglycerin tablets which are absorbed sublingually.”
He also pointed to research which says that thiamine can pass through the mucous membrane of the cheek successfully. sciencedirect.com/science/a...
why don’t you stop arguing this endless point and let people decide based on their own research whether this tablet whatever you want to call it is successful. By putting it under your tongue and allowing it to melt into your saliva. I did that, decided, took it and had amazing results
“they are made on the same machines as sublingual nitroglycerin tablets which are absorbed sublingually.” This comment is totally moot. The machine it's pressed on has nothing to do with the capabilities of the ingredients, as to being sublingual. If you put sand the same machine do you think you would get sublingual sand tablets?
I was also reading a lot those days about "sublingual", the question that came to my mind is. "If it is possible to produce B1 sublingual, why no one else, is doing it" Except the microlingual from the usa company there is no other having a similar product. There is a sublingual form for B12 for example, but not for B1. As far as I know for a product to be really sublingual, it's molecule must be small enough to pass directly into thee blood stream, so probably for B1 this is not possible.
Thanks to everyone who contributed replies. By way of summary, here are the points made:
1) There are two relevant Facebook groups: "Parkinson’s Thiamine HCl" and "Parkinson’s B1 Therapy."
2) "Thiamine Mononitrate is more stable than Thiamine HCL."
3) Sublingual Thiamine does not exist.
4) "Thiamine mononitrate is the nitrated form of thiamine which has the ability to easily cross the sublingual mucosa." (Comment: As I'm not a chemist, I don't know why a nitrated form would be more easily absorbed than the B1 HCL.)
5)"Thiamine HCL is intensely bitter." (Comment: I didn't find it any more bitter than the Thiamine Mononitrate.)
6) One respondent stated that "the microlingual tablets in his experience are much more potent than the HCL capsules", but went on to say that he'd been taking the B1 HCL capsules orally.
These responses were helpful, but I'd still like to find out the answers to the following questions:
A) At what level is Thiamine Mononitrate potentially toxic to the digestive system?
B) I've noticed that the microlingual "easy melting" pills do melt easily, but they're not quickly absorbed from under the tongue. They mix with saliva and the B1 in the solution is very gradually absorbed over at least an hour. It's my understanding that Thiamine Mononitrate, which is used in these tablets, can be bad for the digestive system. So does that mean that I shouldn't swallow what is left of the weakened Thiamine Mononitrate /Saliva solution?
C)- If Thiamine Mononitrate is potentially toxic, why not simply use Thiamine HCL 100 mg pills, since the remaining solution containing the B1 HCL can be swallowed since it's harmless to the digestive system? There's no need to spit the remainder out. Dissolving the gelatin casing of these pills adds a bit of time, but the absorption rate is the same as it is for the mononitrate.
I read the article and found nothing that had any practical application, but then most of it was written in sciencese, and I'm just a layperson. It did say that B1 HCL was less "stable" than B1 Mononitrate, but there was no explanation of what that might signify to a Parkinsonian.
ok, that's actually quite technical, sorry it doesn't help you find the answer to your question. Unfortunately, these technical articles are inevitable when you want to delve into a topic. I found this interesting as it compares the two forms of thiamin. What I understand is that they are two salts that when dissolved release the same thiamin molecule so there may not be much difference.
However, if you scroll to the end of the text, in the "reference" chapter, point 2 you will find a link that leads to a web page entitled "The Side Effects of Thiamine Mononitrate". About halfway down this page you will find the reference that might answer your question and I quote:
“Is Thiamine Mononitrate Safe?
Vitamin B-1 in its natural form is unlikely to cause any adverse reactions. Large doses may cause stomach upset, as Penn State Hershey Milton S. Hershey Medical Center points out. The same source states that daily doses of 50 to 100 milligrams of thiamine in supplement form are safe — however, you should consult your doctor before using it….” and then continue with more information. I know, it's a bit convoluted, but that's the way the web is.
thiamine mononitrate is the form of thiamine used to add B1 to food. It has been cleared by the EFSA. In food, of course, the mononitrate goes through the digestive system….
On a related matter, I find it strange that the manufacturer allows amazon to describe the product as "Under The Tongue Quick Dissolve Sublingual Tablets".
Translation: They put up with it because it increases their profits.
On a related matter, what are your thoughts on this quote from Dap:
"There is no doubt in my mind that the diluted tablet passes through the mucous membrane into the bloodstream. It couldn’t possibly have that effect it has for hundreds of people, if it went through the digestion."
I think hundreds of people have had the benefit of the power of an incredibly enthusiastic clinician's (and subsequently that of his equally enthusiastic acolytes) suggestion.
There is NO scientific evidence (even from the manufacturer)that this specific b1 tablet, when taken under the tongue, passes its active ingredients directly into the bloodstream. Legally, they can't & won't. They can tell you to try administering it sublingually/under the tongue, but make no claims that the active ingredients make their way into your bloodstream, other than through digestion. Believe what you wish. I'll take proven science over one person that says "there's no doubt in their mind" that it must, and then by putting their thoughts into a book, now makes it gospel. If it works for you, great. I ask that you do your own independent due diligence prior to ingesting anything.
I think you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. To keep you guys happy, perhaps a name change could be made. Perhaps Dap's invention could be called "forced sublingual" (c.f. "forced exercise").
it says "sublingual" there's no need to infer if it's spelled that way. sublingual is not microlingual maybe you are a bit confused by the specialist nomenclature. I advise you to deepen the topic starting from the definition of sublingual. merriam-webster.com/diction.... Then you will explain to me what is the matter if people benefit from this.?
Hi there. I would personally add that some people need to take extra minerals for the B1 to work properly. A Dr Longsdale writes about this. I believe it is called the refeeding syndrome.
I've been using the Superior Source 100 mg B1 Mononitrate tablets for a week or so, and my experience has been that a tablet does melt quickly under my tongue, but then the B1 stays in my mouth in a B1/Saliva solution, and I have to avoid swallowing it or opening my mouth for 1-2 hours, until most of the taste of it has weakened to the extent that I assume that the B1 has been mostly absorbed.
Obviously there is a demand for a true B1 sublingual. Any investors out there?
Thanks for your response. I read that 1/2 tsp of this powder contains 25 mg of B1, but that there are also many other ingredients, including B2, B3, B5, B6, and B12, as well as some plant-based ingredients.
Is it possible that some of the ingredients other than B1 might counter its effectiveness , or that of the C/L that I take?
Also, in order to get 100 mg of B1 from the powder, one must take 4 tsp. Would quadrupling any of the other ingredients potentially cause overdoses, or significantly increase the probabilities of a drug interaction?
Hi there could I just point out that Dr Constantine used Injectionx and then to help those who could not travel to him or did not have access to injections he developed the use of B1HCL. I have not read of him using anything else.
Whilst everyone is free to follow their own ways of doing things, that would not be the Constantine protocol
For anyone seeking further information on this, I would imagine that Daphne Bryan's book contains background information on both her protocol and the protocol of Dr. Costantini.
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Dropping TTFD and planning to switch to Sublingual (B1)
My Protocol for Parkinson's
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HDT b1 PROTOCOL
