One topic that seems to come up regularly on this forum is the issue of poor sleep or insomnia and it seems very common in PWP so I thought I would try another experiment to see if I could improve on my current sleep regimen and if I could, I wanted to share that information here on the forum. On that note, I can say that I found a bit of improvement with the addition of zinc to my normal magnesium and melatonin 123 sleep regimen.
Previously we have discussed many potential sleep aids on this forum and I had written one post along those lines here :
While medical marijuana can be useful for sleep, it is not available to everyone unless you live where it is legal, so another effective alternative would be desirable.
More recently I have been using the melatonin 123 and a magnesium supplement with it such as Magnesium L Threonate, Magnesium Glycinate or Magnesium Taurate. The combination of magnesium and melatonin 123 seems to work fairly well, but I wanted to see if there is any room for improvement so I started reading studies on supplements that can help with sleep and I came across several studies that looked interesting, but one study caught my attention since I already use two of the supplements that were mentioned so I added the missing supplement to my sleep regimen and I also asked a friend with sleep issues to try it at the same time . My results showed an unscientific improvement in my sleep quality after three days so I thought I would share it with the forum since sleep issues are so common in PwP and hopefully someone else will also find it useful to improve their sleep.
The following Psychology Today article discusses the use of magnesium as a sleep aid :
In this study they used melatonin, magnesium and zinc. I had never heard of zinc used as a sleep aid before so that also caught my interest. Here is a link to the double blind placebo controlled study abstract :
So my friend and myself have been experimenting with the addition of zinc to melatonin and magnesium. I gave the supplements to my friend to use and we both have been taking them for a week and my friend said it definitely does seem to improve sleep in terms of length and deeper sleep (much less waking from sleep and easier to fall back to sleep as well as less trips to the bathroom) . Since I was already taking melatonin 123 and magnesium taurate, it was easier for me to determine what difference the addition of zinc made and I would describe that difference as more restful and longer sleep ( 7 to 8 hours) after a few nights of use. I should mention that since I already had the three ingredients, I took them at the dosages that I had on hand which were higher for the zinc and melatonin than what was used in the study. I also did not use the pear pulp that they used as a carrier for the three supplements. An important point to keep in mind is that no matter what you use to help with sleep, it is almost pointless if you have to get up every hour to use the restroom, so that is the reason for mentioning two things to help with nocturia. The following study may explain why Nocturia was reduced in my friend :
One other easy potential aid for nocturia is a glass of grapefruit juice or a half a grapefruit in the evening.
I just wanted to share this information with you guys and hopefully it can work as well or better for you as it does for me and my friend! Lastly it may offer a healthier alternative to prescription sleep aids.
Art
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chartist
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I always appreciate your sharing such useful information. Thank you, will add zinc at bedtime also. I already take 20mg melatonin and my magnesium malate.
Anything to help ward off those endless restless nights.
I hope the zinc is additive for you and please let us know if you think it is helpful. It took me three nights to notice the difference. Another benefit I noticed is that if I am just sitting after lunch, it is easy for me to nod off. Not so much anymore.
I'm a bit different than the average and need more zinc and less copper because my copper tends to run high so I am using more zinc than used in the study. The extra zinc is my way of balancing my zinc/copper ratio for my own situation.
I don't normally try to alter my iron or manganese levels, but if I did I would try to lower manganese and increase iron.
The amount of zinc used in the study was fairly low at just 11.25 mg of zinc.
Right, I saw it said 11mg. I’m doing 15mg for Covid benefit. But you just take the zinc at 1 time not multiple doses? Like 5mg at 3x/day? Or maybe it makes no difference.
Thank you Art. You introduced me to the 123 approach a while back and I need to be re-energized in the enthusiasm department. I will add zinc and hope for 8 hours.
Always helpful! My husband and I take an organic liquid spray Zinc Picolinate. According to the instructions on the bottle, we have four sprays which is 100mg. We also take it in the morning after breakfast.
1. Is it a high dose?
2. Change the time and take it at night with melatonin and magnesium (threonate)?
Sometimes the weight on labels includes the whole molecule and if so the 100mg might be a lot less.
Zinc 65 molecular weight
Zinc Picolinate 309 so
Zinc is only 100 x 65/309 =21mg.
Check on the label to see if it says it is just the zinc or if it is the whole molecule they are talking about
Ps just saw below. I would check with the manufacturer whether it is just the Zinc or the whole molecule as it isn’t very clear. It seems awfully strong otherwise.
It does look like they mean the Zn but maybe email them and ask. It is a lot but the Hardy’s den has 64 mg per day if you take the full 12 caps. I did see in webmed to be careful as some zn products also have cadmium so choose a well tested brand.
Thank you! This is a question from another customer and their answer:
Q: Hello. your products look like they are great. my only concern is the high amount of zinc dosing, isn't 100mg of zinc daily too much?
A: Zinc supplements in the amount of 30 to 150 mg per day are used very commonly and superloading on zinc by taking up to 100mg a day is confirmed to be safe in the short term (2-4 months) particularly when trying to boost your immune system or ward off Cold/Flu.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the serving size for our product is 4 sprays daily, so one spray delivers only 25 mg of Zinc, so if you want to keep your daily dose lower, you can cut the dosing as you deem fit or as recommended by your heath-care provider.
Please let us know if you have any other questions. see less
Ok so definitely 100 then. I have seen other products like lithium orotate for example where some companies count the whole molecule so it is something to be aware of when the organic part of the molecule is so large compared with the metal part.
I chose this for its form, Zinc Picolinate. Guess we have to reduce to one spray per day, even that it's over the RDA. I will get a different one once we finish this one. I looked for Zinc Orotate in its liquid form, but so far I have been unsuccessful.
I really appreciate you sharing this information because I have trouble getting back to sleep once I wake up, usually around 3am. I can't survive without one or two naps during the day. Do you need a script for Melatonin 123?
Whether you need a prescription for melatonin depends on what country you are in. In the US, no prescription needed, but in other countries a prescription may be needed. They are only using 5 mg of melatonin, so most doctors should be willing to write a script for such a low dose over other scripts for sleep.
West Coast reading ccr69’s post to you. That means I’m still trying to dial in th zinc addition to my night time meds.
Melatonin is easy to get here, and it is available as a sublingual. We also have a capsule that is 3mg melatonin + 200mg l-theanine. I add 5mg. sublingual melatonin.
I forgot to ask you a what time of the day do you take the Melatonin, Mg and Zn? Do you know of anyone who has just tried Mg and Zn without the Melatonin?
The zinc and magnesium I take one hour before bed. The melatonin I take at three different times to conform with what I refer to as melatonin 123. If I were not doing melatonin 123 and just one dose of melatonin at one time, I would take the melatonin with the zinc and magnesium.
Regarding just magnesium and zinc, I do not and I can't test it because in order to test it, I would have to stop melatonin and I don't want to do that.
I recently picked back up on taking zinc, may be why I've slept 10 hours a night for the last 2 nights. I was sleeping 5 to 6 hours of restful sleep on melatonin and magnesium, the 10 hours is unusual for me.
Thanks Art. Only read this yesterday and had my first straight 6 hrs sleep for ages last night. Still wanting to get back to 8 hrs. Have been told that the quinine in tonic water stops the leg cramps so shall try this tonight as well.
Getz, regarding the leg cramps, several forum members have reported relief with mag oil spray rubbed into the affected area and some with oral magnesium glycinate.
Thanks Art. I used to make a magnesium cream to sell at the markets and it was quite popular but maybe just making up a concentrated MgCl in a spray bottle will do after my evening shower. Cramps aren't too bad yet. They are at the stage of just letting me know they are thinking of gripping my legs.
FYI Hardy’s daily essential nutrients has 16mg per 4 capsules serving. Daily therapeutic dose is 12 capsules so 64 mg. Plus it has many other things so it can be cheaper and easier to take this as it has everything in one product.
When was the last time you actually broke a sweat doing something? It seems that the more I do, the better I sleep. I have read many places that the more melatonin you take, the more you screw up your pineal gland. Consequently I won't take it more than once a week, when I've been lazy. The rest of the supplements, flush them. I take a daily multivitamin with my prescribed meds. Most of the time, I sleep pretty good and my bedroom is somewhat cool. Middle of the night if I wake up with failing kidneys, my urinal is one step away from my bed. Get some exercise but don't overdo it and sleep well.
I have discovered the hard way that pumpkin seed oil must be refrigerated, otherwise it will go rancid. I do not know if it would remain liquid in the freezer, but if so, even better.
Art, as usual, thank you so much for all your effort testing and putting things in 'print' that you share with us! Will you tell me what meltonin "123" means. I searched but to no avail. John already takes melatonin (at 80 mg right now) and magnesium L-threonate. He's been taking Bladder Control Advantage, which is pumpkin seed extract, three leaf caper, and soybean extracts, to help with nocturia, and while this has helped, it would be nice to be even better. He could still benefit from better or deeper and longer sleep. So thanks for the tip.
Melatonin 123 is just a term I use for dividing your regular dose into 3 individual doses. I do it this way to try and mimic a steady release of melatonin like the pineal gland. It is a bit more effort, but for me its seems to offer a slightly better sleep response to melatonin. As an example, if I plan to go to bed at 11:00 pm and I normally take 30 mg of melatonin per night, I will take 10 mg at 9:00 pm, 10 mg at 10:00 pm and 10 mg at 11:00 pm.
This may no longer be needed with the addition of zinc, but I have not had a chance to test that idea yet.
On a related note, I take the zinc and magnesium, one hour before bed, so in the scenario above, I would take the zinc and magnesium with the 10:00 pm dose of melatonin.
Thanks, Art. I've found that he has been taking 10 mg of zinc in one of the supplements he takes at breakfast. Do you have any idea if that zinc would be able to help with sleep/nocturia at all, or must it be taken in the eveving? Those caps are supposed to be taken at breakfast. Dont know if I'll hear back from doc about it.
I don't know , but if sleep or nocturia is an issue, I would take it one hour before bed to get maximum sleep benefit from the zinc he is taking. It's hard when it is part of a multi-supplement, because other items in the supplement may work against sleep. With nocturia, it is actually the melatonin that works against nocturia and the other supplement at the bottom of the original post, Pumpkin Seed Oil also works against nocturia and possibly overactive bladder.
If you ever want to find these posts again, simply click on my icon (blue B1 capsule) and select from the list of 18 more recent posts I currently have up on the forum. I have older posts that I put up when I was known as "easilly", but they are harder to find.
Please come back to the appropriate thread and update on how melatonin is working out for him!
Thanks, Art. He got started on the grapefruit juice last night. I wonder how long it will take with faithfully drinking it to show whether it is going to make a difference.
In the study they used 11.25 mg every night, one hour before bed and that should be safe for most people. I personally take more because I am high in copper and low in zinc. The RDA for zinc in men is 11 mg/day.
In the study they used 225 mg of magnesium one hour before bed and that dose is also safe for most people and well below the RDA which is in the 310 to 420 mg/day range.
As far as tremors, I am not aware of anyone reporting that benefit from magnesium or zinc. There have been a few members who have reported that topical magnesium oil (MO) has helped them with mild dyskinesia and definitely for muscle cramps. Spray it on, rub it in and muscle cramps usually go away in a minute to three minutes.
Hi my husband’s sleep is really poor and often needs help to get out of bed to stretch / go to the loo. Started mannitol about 3 weeks ago which has def helped with balance during the day but sleep is still poor . Considering taking magnesium and zinc , which one should I start first or both together can you recommend a brand ? In the uk 😀
Magnesium glycinate or magnesium taurate would be good for sleep as would the zinc and melatonin as used in the study at the top of this thread. They used 5 mg of melatonin and on your side of the pond, his doctor would likely write a prescription for melatonin if you asked and you can even take a copy of the study to help sell him on the idea, if he is resistant at first. They used 11.25 mg of zinc and 225 mg of magnesium. Definitely both zinc and magnesium. PWP have low serum zinc so that can be a good place to start followed by the magnesium.
I'm not familiar with brands in the UK, but perhaps other members from the UK could chime in and offer a suggestion or two??
If you wouldn't mind, would you come back and let us know how it goes with his nurse as others are probably in a similar situation and it could be useful for them too!
Thank you for the kind words. I was unable to reply or write in for some time. When I tried, I would receive an
error message after I hit send. Was that way for a long time. Just happened to check the website the other day after a frustrating night of no sleep, and the first thing I saw was your article. Wow! And then my reply went through. Great! I missed you guys.
This is a copy and paste of a reply by AlpacaGal to the sleep trio on Oct./7/2020:
AlpacaGal in reply to chartist
35 minutes ago
Have never tried tyrosine, thanks for the heads up. I just read selenium was important also. Sounds like low doses of D and selenium might be useful.
Yes, the zinc/mag/mel trio has been a game changer! Getting around eight hours of mostly uninterrupted sleep. (Used to average 5-6 restless hours with a trip or two to the bathroom.)
HI Art, I just started taking 50 mg of Melatonin and no issues to this point with the Melatonin, but constipation is constant these days so that is my first priority ... it seems to be a daily battle , wife is keeping the dinner plate full of roughage foods, etc., drinking lots too.
I am getting a full 6 + hours of dead-out deep sleep and waking at 6 to 7AM and no desire to drop off ...
Benefits have been a lot of my minor aches have diminished or gone so slowly you don't notice it, not all gone but less pain duration , also my mind is much clearer in the thinking and remembering department , now if I can improve/stop my drool , new to me in the last month.
Also I have to stop using the wrong words.... Just before the words come out I can tell I am going to say something that is out of context... have found that speaking slower helps stay on topic..
I hope to find a lowering of my Cholesterol from the next blood sucking session from the use of Melatonin as you mentioned here. I am slated for a stress test, last one was 2015 after my open heart surgery + 6 months.
Maybe I have to head over to that (old) cough medicine and start swallowing 25 or ? pills ...
That is a game changer! I wonder if the Mannitol would work synergisticly with the cough medicine? it opens the BBB too.
Studies suggest that melatonin lowers LDL and VLDL cholesterol and raises HDL cholesterol . If the particular dose of melatonin is insufficient for this purpose, I have seen very good results using Lecithin as illustrated here :
Lastly, regarding the blood brain barrier (BBB), it definitely serves a protective purpose for the brain, so I don't get too excited about trying to manipulate it.
I posted this 9 months ago so it seems like time to update this post with some good news! Over a year ago, forum member Kia17 suggested a specific form of a magnesium multi called Magtech which contains 3 types of magnesium, magnesium l threonate, magnesium glycinate and magnesium taurate. Kia said that he found it beneficial for sleep improvement. These are 3 of my favorite forms of magnesium for uses other than to help with constipation.
Since I am always testing different supplements, it has taken me this long to get to a place where I could test this type of magnesium multi. At the time that Kia suggested Magtech, I thought it was a little expensive at $35 for a one month supply so I told him about another brand of magnesium called MagEnhance that has the same three forms of magnesium in it with the exact same ratios, but costs $25 for a one month supply. One of their selling features listed on their homepage is :
>>> ' Love it or 100% money back guarantee. '<<<
Here is a link to the product I used and offers free shipping:
I went ahead and ordered MagEnhance in order to test it as a replacement for the different forms of magnesium I have already tested as part of the three supplement combo mentioned in the original post at the top of this thread for sleep improvement. I just started it this week as my newest replacement magnesium form for the sleep trio at the top of this thread.
What I can say so far, is, thank you Kia! It is easily the best magnesium addition to the trio of sleep supplements which are melatonin, zinc and magnesium taken about an hour before bed time. This would be my magnesium supplement of choice for use as a sleep aid and these 3 forms of magnesium are generally considered to be 3 of the better forms of magnesium.
The improvements I notice with this new magnesium multi is less waking during the night, easier to fall back asleep if I wake during the night or have to get up to use the restroom and longer sleep duration. Aside from these 3 improvements in sleep, if it continues to work this way, I may never need to use medical marijuana for nights when the trio is not enough of a sleep aid. It is also worth noting that both magnesium taurate and magnesium l threonate are able to cross the blood brain barrier (BBB) while magnesium glycinate is able to be well absorbed and effective for muscle relaxation. All three of these attributes are useful for PwP because magnesium is known to inhibit the inflammatory chemokine IL-8 in the brain and this is important because although IL-8 is reduced in the serum of PwP, it is highly elevated in the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF). Lowering IL-8 also lowers the inflammatory mediators TNF-alpha, IL-1b and IL-6 as shown here:
Since PwP often have muscle stiffness, the magnesium glycinate may be helpful for this problem. Muscle stiffness and tension can also be a contributing factor to insomnia, so the magnesium glycinate may be useful for this issue also.
I used Magenhance for over a year with no improvement in any aspect of sleep. I now take 20-30mg of melatonin nightly which also does not help me sleep but I continue taking it because I believe it’s good for me (thanks to you, Art).
I take all three, zinc, magnesium and melatonin. Prior to MagEnhance, the results were good. With MagEnhance, I would describe my results as very good and somewhat comparable to when I was much younger, except then I didn't need any sleep aids! I think with most of these things, it comes down to trial and error to find out what works for each individual. Kia mentioned it because he felt his sleep benefit was worth mentioning since insomnia is a common problem for PwP and I would say that my experience is similar to his. For me, so far, not having to use medical marijuana at all is an added plus and I get the benefits that these three forms of magnesium offer aside from sleep improvement!
Thank you for your detailed information. You are absolutely right and MagTech is one of the best magnesium supplements in the market. I have also tried MagEnhance and that has the same formula and exact efficacy as MagTech from Natural Stacks.
Magnesium glycinate is a highly bioavailable form of magnesium and a significant source of glycine, an amino acid that promotes deep sleep and the elimination of toxins from the body.
Magnesium taurate delivers an important amino acid, taurine to the brain and body. Magnesium and taurine have synergistic and potentiating roles.Magnesium and taurine work together to stabilize cell membranes throughout the central nervous system and maintain neurotransmitter balance. One of taurine’s main tasks is to facilitate the passage of sodium, potassium, and magnesium ions into and out of cells for optimal neuronal activity.
Magnesium-l-threonate is a breakthrough super-mineral with strong evidence of supporting cognitive functions and brain health. It is the only magnesium compound that has been shown to effectively raise the brain’s magnesium levels, which leads to improved memory and cognitive functions.
I truly agree with the above statement from the MagTech and in my opinion these apply to both MagTech and MagEnhance.
I thought it might be a good time to update this thread as I switched things up a bit and have noticed a very significant improvement in my sleep!
As some on this forum may know, I take high dose melatonin every night at 106 mg or more per night. I am just completing 8 months at this dose.
I have previously mentioned taking what I refer to as melatonin 1-2-3 as a way of improving the sleep effect of melatonin over just taking my full dose shortly before bed time. So for this method, I decide what time I want to go to bed, so lets say that I want to got to bed at 11:00 pm. I take one third of my dose at 9 pm, one third at 10 pm and the last third right at 11:00 pm and that has worked fairly well for me.
This past week, because I take so many melatonin capsules, I decided to try something different buy taking a 10 mg capsule every hour starting at 5:00 pm or 6:00 pm. By the time I am ready to go to bed, I take the remainder of my dose. That's it and I am not punctual on the timing of each capsule. What I found is that this has reverted my sleep to what it was like 20 years ago for me where once I lay down, I don't remember anything until I wake in the morning. I only get up once during the night to go to the bathroom and sometimes not at all!
For me this seems to work better than all other things I have tried that showed some effect such as MagEnhance, Valerian Root Extract, zinc, Lemon Balm, GABA, multi component sleep blends, 5HTP, other forms of magnesium and even high THC content medical marijuana!
For those who only take low dose melatonin, it is available in 1/2 mg capsules. So 6 of those a night would only be about 3 mg a night. I think this method more closely mirrors the actual release of melatonin into the system and may be why it is working for me so well.
I have no idea how long this effect will last, but I am going to enjoy this while it is working!
To update how this extended application of melatonin is working, it is working well if I take it correctly and just so so otherwise. If I take the first capsule around 6 or 7 pm and one every hour until bed time it works well to put me to sleep. Timing does not seem to be critical in terms of every hour exactly so if I go 45 minute one time and 90 minutes another time, it does not seem to be a problem. The important part seems to be to start early around 6 or 7 pm and this works well for me. Melatonin comes in capsules of just a half milligram for people who are taking much lower doses of melatonin than me. I imagine this mimics the way the pineal gland excretes melatonin into the system as a possible reason why it works for me.
I should also mention that I stopped MagEnhance and zinc while running this self test because they help me with sleep also, but I wanted to get a better idea of how melatonin alone would do as an extended application.
I use magnesium glycinate, but have found a 3 in 1 magnesium product (MagEnhance) that worked better for sleep and contains three different forms of magnesium (Magnesium L Threonate, Magnesium Glycinate and Magnesium Taurate) noted for higher bioavailability. Here is a link to that product which I took at the label recommended dose of 3 capsules :
I've used zinc gluconate and zinc sulfate at 50 mg in capsules.
Melatonin 123 is a method I used that worked better than just taking your full dose of melatonin shortly before bedtime. It works like this. If you are taking 3 mg of melatonin at bedtime, then you divide this dose by three and take 1 mg in three doses. So if you want to go to bed at 11:00 pm, you take one mg at 9:00pm, one mg at 10 pm and one mg at 11:00 pm. This tends to mimic the natural release of melatonin from the pineal gland and I found it more effective than taking all 3 mg of melatonin at bedtime.
Of course my doses were much higher because I take high dose melatonin. Some people take a 10 mg melatonin at bedtime and the closest you can come to this is to take three 3 mg melatonin tabs in a 123 fashion. The same for whatever dose you are currently using.
Four years ago, you were very enthusiastic about supplementing with zinc, along with melatonin and magnesium as sleep aids. It seems that you no longer do this yourself. If that's the case, what is the reason for this?
I still take zinc, melatonin and magnesium. The zinc I take for sleep as well as for other health benefits, very much like the melatonin and magnesium. I just don't talk about it much now. It's just part of my supplement regimen.
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