Caffeine and progression of Parkinson’s disease: A deleterious interaction with Creatine

[Bolt_Upright]

So I was thinking of adding Creatine to my stack based on a VERY positive video I watched from a "doctor" who it turns out graduated from an unimpressive medical school within the last 10 years and has already surrendered his license.

So then I thought I should research his claims about Creatine and PD (and Creatine and Hashimoto's) and I found nothing to support his claims, BUT I DID FIND THIS:

Caffeine and progression of Parkinson’s disease: A deleterious interaction with Creatine 2015 ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

"Objective: Increased caffeine intake is associated with a lower risk of Parkinson’s disease (PD) and is neuroprotective in mouse models of PD. However, in a prior study, an exploratory analysis showed that, in patients taking creatine, caffeine intake was associated with a faster rate of progression. In the current study we investigated the association of caffeine with the rate of progression of PD and the interaction of this association with creatine intake."

"Results: Caffeine intake was not associated with the rate of progression of PD in the main analysis, but higher caffeine intake was associated with significantly faster progression among subjects taking Creatine."

SO IF YOU ARE TAKING CAFFEINE YOU PROBABLY DON'T WANT TO TAKE CREATINE.

And maybe not take creatine anyway? This says not effective (but these studies are single item, maybe in combination it works?):

The effectiveness of creatine treatment for Parkinson’s disease: an updated meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials 2017 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a...

I feel like I dodged a bullet.

[Sydney75]

Thanks good info!

[Wind_in_the_trees]

Caffeine is neuro toxic. It has been shown to decrease oxygen to the brain. But, coffee is very rich in polyphenols and antioxidants. I speculate that the increased caffeine consumption is really correlative and not causative of slowed progression. Likewise with green and black tea. Also, decaf coffee is toxic unless the Swiss water process is used. And, coffee is a big source of mold.

[MBAnderson in reply to Wind_in_the_trees]

got links? I've read the opposite -- about green tea as well

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

chatGPT to the rescue

"The relationship between coffee and Parkinson's disease is a topic that has been studied extensively, and research suggests that coffee consumption may have a protective effect against Parkinson's disease.

Several studies have found an association between higher coffee consumption and a reduced risk of developing Parkinson's disease. The beneficial effects are believed to be attributed to the presence of caffeine and other compounds in coffee, such as polyphenols, which have been found to have neuroprotective properties.

Caffeine, the primary active ingredient in coffee, acts as an adenosine receptor antagonist, which can modulate the release of dopamine, a neurotransmitter involved in movement control. Parkinson's disease is characterized by the loss of dopamine-producing cells in the brain, and caffeine's interaction with the dopamine system may help to reduce the risk of developing the disease.

However, it is important to note that the research findings are not conclusive, and individual responses to coffee or caffeine may vary. Some studies have suggested that the protective effect of coffee may be more pronounced in individuals who do not carry certain genetic variants associated with increased susceptibility to Parkinson's disease. Additionally, excessive consumption of coffee or caffeine may have other health implications and should be approached with moderation.

It is always recommended to consult with a healthcare professional or a specialist in Parkinson's disease to discuss individual circumstances and determine the most appropriate course of action."

[MBAnderson]

Brad Stanfield?

[Wind_in_the_trees in reply to MBAnderson]

No

Many studies show that caffeine reduces oxygen in the brain by about 30%

“Caffeine reduced CBF by an average of 27% across both caffeine states. “

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Additionally

caffeine increases glutamate. Glutamate Excitotoxicity is detrimental. So, increasing glutamate might be a bad idea.

Quote

These observations indicate that caffeine induces glutamate excitotoxicity in the brain. Future studies should explore mechanisms by which caffeine exposure causes an elevation in extracellular glutamate concentrations.

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

[Wind_in_the_trees in reply to MBAnderson]

amenclinics.com/blog/what-d...

Caffeine reduces cerebral blood floor and therefore reduces oxygen

[MBAnderson in reply to Wind_in_the_trees]

While much of the content was above my paygrade, it seems like a competent study, so once again we have conflicting studies.

But, I don't want to give up coffee too.

[MarionP in reply to Wind_in_the_trees]

Amen is out for himself. I used to follow him and then I learned how he markets himself so very heavily for massive massive profit, but worse, it's an ariva he is constantly pedaling has little to no proven validity to support his claims, and of course he knows better unless he has never actually done studies himself and does not understand experimental design or peer review or pure consensus as established through the traditional professional scientific methods for sciences and engineering. If we're now consider him unethical enough that I won't do anything he recommends without independent confirmation of validity and honesty.

Of course you can do as you like but I'm not prepared to listen to any assertions of yours without sufficient responsible proof, thanks very much.

[kaypeeoh]

Thinking of the heart as a fluid pump, caffeine constricts vessels. But that should raise the BP within the constricted vessels, keeping oxygenation elevated to the downstream tissues.

[MarionP in reply to kaypeeoh]

I suggest you ask a cardiologist and/or internist, plenty of them are available so there's no reason to have to guess or ensure against your own blind spots as potential, perhaps likely, sources of error. If you're interested in doing that, it would be nice to have you do so and then report back.

[MarionP]

Well you know it's also true that probably 98% of people with PD had carrots at some point within the last 45 days.

[MBAnderson in reply to MarionP]

Got links?🙂

[MarionP in reply to MBAnderson]

Well I got it from a non-published, but wholly (or was it holy?) scientific study of two guys I know. (Hey, how come I can't "heart" my own comment? That doesn't seem right.)

[MBAnderson in reply to MarionP]

Because we'd all have 50 likes/comment

[MarionP in reply to MBAnderson]

Ah. So true. As one of the wisest people I ever knew once said (and I have totally forgotten who that was), "everybody sells."

[curlscurls in reply to MarionP]

Monday on a long car ride to a doctor's appt (3 hours each way). What are you saying, now I'm going to have to deal with hopping popping up in my walking? Or will how long it took to munch the baby carrots prove early diagnosis of my PD while providing no treatment? Like bunny radar?

[MarionP in reply to curlscurls]

Couldn't hurt. Carrots and a little of Italian dressing, especially the robust kind, very tasty, very healthy.

[curlscurls in reply to MarionP]

🐇🥕... 😆

[MarionP in reply to curlscurls]

Chomp!

[SAGoodman]

Wow good find Bolt! I'm glad you found that information, I'm stopping creatine today! Thanks again 😁

[MBAnderson in reply to SAGoodman]

youtu.be/lPyOw5-WFho(Not working as expected?)

conflicting studies - our life story

[Bolt_Upright in reply to MBAnderson]

I got the impression that Creatine was very safe unless you had PD and used Caffeine. If I saw a good enough case for Creatine I might give up my Pepsi. Maybe...

[MarionP in reply to Bolt_Upright]

I have yet to find any reason to give up Pepsi and I'm 70 now. Would still be drinking Coke actually, had they not removed the cocaine many years ago. (What a waste.)

[Bolt_Upright in reply to MarionP]

Coke can't carry Pepsi's athletic supporter.

[MarionP in reply to Bolt_Upright]

Like the image, I used to be that way about mountain dew.

[Bolt_Upright in reply to MarionP]

You can always add some back Sometimes I add vanilla to my Pepsi.

[MarionP in reply to Bolt_Upright]

I will try the vanilla that's not a bad idea

[JustJeff]

Very interesting thanks

[PalmSprings]

I’m glad you found this before combining the two. I am going to carry on drinking copious amounts of coffee a day and hope there are no other studies that tip the balance away from the benefits of doing so! Cheers ☕️

[MarionP in reply to PalmSprings]

In 1982, during a psychiatric services residency in Tulsa Oklahoma, I happened to mention to a particular psychiatric resident who was supervising my therapy activities, the question about the apparent benefits of caffeine, being an intern of psychotherapy, and asked him whether he could confirm any of them. He said to me "Well, the main benefit I see is that it does indeed increase your IQ." I have never had occasion since then to believe otherwise, from that day to to this, recently retired psychologist that I am. Perhaps that accounts for nothing save in my own mind, but I offer it here for what it's worth.

[Gigi216]

yes I’m glad I saw this post, I had been considering creatine for muscle strength and I drink coffee, and I noticed wind in the trees saying caffeine is toxic 🤷🏻‍♀️ we just can’t have any fun right?

[MarionP in reply to Gigi216]

You construct and manufacture your own fun and to a certain extent even your own reality, for real and truly, even when chemicals are involved. Therefore, not to worry, and to anybody who would criticize you I say "Fu*k Off." 50 years a psychologist, and if you find reason to doubt me, no problem there either, just ask for a refund.

PS see my other comment about caffeine above or below as it were.

[curlscurls]

Oh good I can stop being frustrated that, my not using caffeine which should be positive in life, isn't a bad thing.

[Bolt_Upright in reply to curlscurls]

Yes. I gave up caffeine for about 8 months a few years ago. Never felt better. Ever!

I say this as a I sip a Pepsi (with real sugar)

Pepsi vs Coke

[MarionP]

Okay, I just ran across this and I can't vouch for it in terms of offering references, but you can take a look at this and then pursue where you think it might take you. They do claim that they have references and fact-checking behind it for what that's worth.

youtube.com/watch?app=deskt...

[Likii]

I daresay readers can relax.

From that very study:

"However, no significant association of creatine with rate of progression of PD even was detected when considering only those subjects in the low caffeine group (<300mg/day) or only those subjects with very low caffeine intake (<25mg/day)."

Furthermore, there are many problems with that study. Desperate data massaging, for one. The reliance on self-reporting "caffeinated beverage consumption" being another.

It's important to read the studies, not just the abstracts, before springing into action.