An easier run, but the knees aren’t happy

[ktsok]

I am pleased to report that today’s run went a lot better than the last. I took two days rest, and chose a flat path beside a river for this one, cutting the hills out of the equation.

Breathing wise, all was well for the 5k. A little too well - I found myself speeding up, and at about 4.8km realised the left knee was hurting. Being a slave to a round number, I carried on until the 5k, then tried not to limp back to the car.

Knee pain is something I live with, and not limping is something I have tried very hard to do - it creates a domino effect of referred tweaks elsewhere in the body. Gritting my teeth and attempting to walk tall is the best way, I have found. Tramadol helps, and I have a repeat prescription of this. Not ideal, and I reach for it sparingly, but better to have it than not, because it can be bad.

To have completed C25K this time round does feel miraculous, but it’s easy to lose sight of this once I grow accustomed to being able to do it. I forget that there were days when it hurt to take a single step, or go up and down stairs or inclines, and I felt trapped inside my body.

When I’m gunning for the last hold on the climb, I forget occasionally that a 2 metre fall onto a crash pad pushes my knees past their absorption capabilities, and I will suffer for it. Like this week.

The fact I ran 5k again is great. I’m really pleased about that. But I do need to look after my knees.

So… climb cautious, run easy… listen to the knees, as well as the breath…

And get some new shoes! I wasn’t wearing the right socks, which doesn’t help, but I think my feet have spread as a result of wearing barefoot shoes for the past couple of years (they seem to help with knee stability). My old Asics are rubbing the ball of my left foot and a horrible red blister has appeared. It’s like my left foot has been running the Marathon des Sables, not plodding along a riverbank! I’m not sure barefoot shoes for running are the way forward for me, but I need something different. If anyone has any experience with barefoot shoes (particularly if they have no padding in their knees!) I’d love to hear about it.

I just hope the joints hold up so I get my moneys worth from these future shoes…

[E27M14 Graduate]

I know what you mean with the limping! I have been suffering for almost a year now with plantar fasciitis my foot and Sacroiliac Joint issues in my hip/pelvis. I don’t know which is the cause and which is the symptom but it is highly likely that one is caused by trying to compensate for the other!! Well done for keeping running though, hope the pain eases soon.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to E27M14]

Well, that sucks. Look at us, the limping ladies! It’s tricky when you have these sorts of chronic issues - the standard advice doesn’t apply, as if I rested when I felt pain, I wouldn’t even go for a walk. There are better days thankfully, too. Well done us for keeping running…

[Beach_runner Graduate]

I get on really well with Altra. They have a really wide toe box and are neutral (no drop), but probably best to visit a running shop for a gait analysis, if you haven't already done so. I also climb/boulder and did have knee issues. Found elastic knee supports helped but physio exercises done daily have made things so much better I no longer need to wear them (well currently at least, don't want to speak too soon!). Did take me nearly 3 years to get knees back to about 98% of where they were, so worth perseverance. If anything I think my legs, overall, are stronger.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Beach_runner]

That’s good to know, thanks Beach. I’m glad the knees seem to be holding up. I swung by a shop today to get a gait analysis and some advice but they were closed. I went 6 years ago or so when I did C25K first time around, but I run differently now and my feet have changed shape since then. I’ll ask about the Altras…

[CBDB Ambassador]

Not quite related, but maybe a bit.

I chose to use zero drops, but not zero cushioning, as I feel I need a bit of cushioning considering my weight.

So I’m now buying all my shoes from Altras.

Not sure that helps, but for me the insight that I could have good cushioning but still zero drop, wide toe box, was an eye opener.

I now own an Altra Lone Peak trail shoe and an Altra Olympus (correction: it is a paradigm Altra) road shoe.

and for walking and hiking and casual work days, I have an Altra Lone Peak boot.

Hope you find what will work for you.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to CBDB]

I will look into these Altras! I have been wearing Vivo barefoots for everyday but I don’t think there’s any padding at all, which feels a bit brutal when running roads. Thank you 🙏

[CBDB Ambassador in reply to ktsok]

Here’s there shoe matrix that lays out different road and trail shoes in terms of cushioning. All Altra shoes are zero drop and wide toe box.

letsrunmoore.com/what-type-...

[ktsok Graduate in reply to CBDB]

CBDB, I have just ordered some Altra’s… 🙏

[CBDB Ambassador in reply to ktsok]

Woohoo! Which ones? You’ll be so pleased with them, I hope! Join the Altra gang! There quite a few of us on here!

[ktsok Graduate in reply to CBDB]

Lone Peak 6 and Torin 5… in the sales

[CBDB Ambassador in reply to ktsok]

Woohoo! Can’t wait to hear what you think of them!

I have a lone peak 5, and will be moving to a 6 when these ones wear out. My shoe patching skills should mean that it will be a while!

[Yesletsgo Administrator]

I spent what felt like a long while living with knee pain and it was no fun at all. Eventually I saw my GP, got X rays done and it showed the issue - arthritis from a motorbike accident many years before and wasted muscles causing weakness. I had intensive physio for a couple of months and chucked out all my high heels and since then, no problems.

If you've had the pain for a while and know the cause that's one thing, but if you're just living with it please get it properly checked out. The right exercises and treatment can make a world of difference. I'd never have even started C25K with the pains I used to have.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Yesletsgo]

That’s great to hear. I have had surgery (meniscus repair, micro fracture) and physio. I’m afraid there is no padding left (wear and tear, aka arthritis) so there are limited options.

[Oldfloss Administrator Graduate in reply to ktsok]

nowster may see this and pop in... he is very involved with family issues right now, but he is our , go to, for tips on barefoot running! I walk around barefoot at home... but I do not run barefoot. Knee exercises a'plenty on the S and F Forum, although I suspect you may have a load from your phsysio.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Oldfloss]

I could probably do with some more, tbh. I think physio is one of my least favourite things to do… I’d rather clean the toilet.

[Oldfloss Administrator Graduate in reply to ktsok]

I'll give you a few links..x

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Oldfloss]

Thank you 🙏

[PaulS83]

There are some climbing walls up the road from me, I took my daughter last year and the seed was planted to give it a go. I’m curiously interested, but would need to whole building to look the other way during my first ascent.

Glad the run went well, less glad about the knee being a twinger whinger.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to PaulS83]

I had a mate who couldn’t climb with people watching. It was a bit limiting! I haven’t to date seen anyone laughing at a beginner giving it a go.

There is a new breed of climber that is indoor-based, some talk about ‘leg days’, and they travel in groups of two or three with their phones never far away, who might seem a bit intimidating. But most of us, at worse, are in benevolent parent mode as we witness your early efforts.

(So long as you observe the etiquette! A couple of goes and step back to rest, don’t hog the wall. Don’t walk underneath climbers, or let your kids run under them. Observe if someone is waiting to have a go and don’t push in, or let your kids push in. Then you might receive a disapproving look).

[Tasha99 Graduate]

anything with a low drop is better for the knees 👍🏽

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Tasha99]

Tash… I have just spent £££s on some Altras… 🤞

[Tasha99 Graduate in reply to ktsok]

Good luck! I had crippling ITB knee pain which went overnight and has never been seen since after swapping to Hokas 👍🏽

[Gthants]

I was going to suggest an urgent physio appointment, but I read further and saw the cause of the pain. Ouch! Sorry! Just give your knee the best chance possible with pre and post stretches, correct footwear and strapping. Best to take it easy rather than risking an injury that will stop you running for a while.

This was an admirable run though!

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Gthants]

Some more physio probably wouldn’t go amiss, it was a while ago… I have built the muscles back up so the legs look even again, but they could probably do with a refresher…

[Gthants in reply to ktsok]

I saw a private physio at the start of last year - he helped my back and got me on to C25K, for which I will be forever grateful. The NHS physio I'm with is similarly awesome - she helped me recover from injury and is helping me with a truly awful rotator cuff problem. She was brilliant when I got hurt running, and it is still her face I see when I think of overdoing the running: just one look and a raised eyebrow was enough to put me right! 🤣

So I'd thoroughly recommend a session or two to keep you on the straight and narrow.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Gthants]

I hear you. Oooh the power of the raised eyebrow!

I have a long list of things that need attention! Tennis elbow, rotator cuff (yup), knees.

[Gthants in reply to ktsok]

Maybe you can get a package deal! 🤣

[Jell6 Graduate]

Stopping at the first sign of pain was a lesson I learned the hard way. I ended up injured for about 8 weeks. I can't offer advice on the shoe choices though 😕

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Jell6]

That sucks. 8 weeks isn’t long in the grand scheme of things, but that’s about 24 runs!!! And pain, and discomfort, and expense, etc…

It’s learning which pain needs listening to, which can be ignored, and which needs to be obeyed, that is the tricky bit! It isn’t so simple as pain = no run : no pain = run these days.

[Trailslogg Graduate]

I've done a fair amount of barefooting (walking, hiking, some running). I find being truly barefoot is incomparable to wearing even the thinnest, lightest of shoes or sandals: being completely barefoot feels, to me, completely freeing and so much lighter and easier than anything else. It's also great to have the sensory input of all the different surfaces and temperatures. Since (I find) your steps will automatically become shorter and lighter, I imagine the strain on knees is less (with more flex in ankles as well as knees), but as far as I know, this is not undisputed.

That said, 1) I think it's wise to build up to it gradually - going out for short periods of time, slowly, and trying a variety of surfaces to allow the skin on the bottom of your feet to build up (as well as, possibly, get your muscles and tendons used to a different way of running). Not so easy in winter. 2) There are obviously areas where barefooting is unhygienic or even dangerous - I wouldn't run barefoot through areas with (used) needles, litter, or glass, nor areas where the grass is too high to see the ground. Smooth forest trails are great, as are slick rocks and concrete, and mud actually feels great (up to a point!); gravel is a pain; asphalt gets dangerously hot in summer. 3) Obviously, if it's not enjoyable or if it feels like pain actually gets worse, don't do it!

[ktsok Graduate in reply to Trailslogg]

That all sounds sensible and tallies with my own thoughts as to how I might go about it. Not just sensible - your experience sounds sensory and wonderful.

I don’t think where I live is particularly conducive to barefoot running (I start out on cobbles!). And I think after a lifetime of wearing shoes it would be too great a shock to immediately run barefoot. Maybe if I move somewhere with soft forest trails and beaches…

I wonder if cow pats feel as good as mud…

[woodenchimera]

For the knee pain look into the kneesovertoesguy on YouTube,had problems with my knees on and off since I got hit by a car when i was 10. Been following his Rehab programme for the last few months after a recent knee injury and they feel better than they have done for years. And if you wear barefoot shoes normally look into altra running shoes, wide toe box and zero drop like a barefoot shoe but rhe cushioning helps reduce impact on your knees.

[ktsok Graduate in reply to woodenchimera]

I’ll take a peek, thanks. Glad to hear you are feeling better!

And I have ordered some Altras 🤞