What's your Fitness/Speed improvement?

[f1madman]

So I'm on my 3rd consolidation run and just trying to run at a consistent zone 3 heart rate, not worrying much about speed.

Something that surprised me when I was comparing my most recent 30 minute run and my first one in WK9R1, was just how much my speed and distance had improved.

I've attached an image of my important stats, where so far I've gone from 2.9km to 3.5km (I know it's not that fast but still it's a 20% improvement for me) in 30mins and I've been running out of road on my usual route!

My heart rate average and effort is mostly the same although I'm now able to keep it slightly more consistent which might be helping me run.

I don't think this is a complete fluke or just a really good day, as the runs in between have generally shown small improvements.

Although one day I hope to run faster and its not my immediate aim, I'm really pleased that maybe my fitness is measurably improving! Maybe this can give hope to anyone on week 1 or getting bored during consolidation?

Please let me know if you've experienced improvements in fitness or speed over time either doing this programme or after it.

[IannodaTruffe Mentor]

Speed comes with strength and stamina and you are doing exactly the correct thing to build them.

It is not a rapid process. My 5k pb came 3 years after graduation.

[f1madman Graduate in reply to IannodaTruffe]

Thanks that's good to know, I'm doing the right things and working on the correct areas.

[John_W Graduate]

Curious to know why Zone 3?

[f1madman Graduate in reply to John_W]

To improve my aerobic fitness and endurance I've read that training in zone 3 is the best place to train. In some cases that the optimal may be actually be towards higher end of the zone at 75%-80% max heart rate.

And tbh it makes for quite a pleasant run, at some point I'll have to start pushing into the higher zones to improve speed and my lactate threshold.... But that can wait for now

[John_W Graduate in reply to f1madman]

1. It's great that you're not concentrating on speed - a perfect approach right now in your consolidation period.

2. I would caution against focusing so much on HR at this time and echo Ant50 's response to simply enjoy getting out regularly. I suspect you have a nice Polar watch (from your screenshots) and you enjoy the stats (like I do) but at this very early stage, they aren't important right now.

3. Having said that, and with regard to HR, can you point me to where you've read that Z3 is best place to train for aerobic fitness and endurance? Of course, it depends on how you define Z3 in terms of HR for example - but everything I've learnt* since I started focusing on marathons a few years ago, says that the middle zone (whatever you want to call it) is NOT the place to train to build endurance (possibly the worst). Most of your runs should be 'easy' pace (aerobic) and that zone is anything from 60 to 75% of your max HR and referred to as Z1 and Z2. But you need a reasonably accurate idea of your HRmax of course. With that in mind, how old are you?

4. You've run 3 times since W9R3, yes? Some of us see quite rapid improvements after graduation, but then hit a plateau quite quickly too. After taking it nice and steady for 1 month, i started to push a little and improved from 26 to 22 minutes over a few months. But it took another 2 years and a lot of hard work to improve to 20:41. But in your case, you've run only 3 times since W9R3 - only 1 week of runs! - that's really not much data to make conclusions from to be honest (sorry!), so again, I'd be wary about too excited at this stage.

5. Finally your enthusiasm is great - keep going , take it and nice and easy for now, and don't get too hung on the stats or the HR.

* I'd recommend looking up the The Physical Performance Show (TPPS) podcasts by Brad Beer and listening to some of the Expert Editions, particularly with Dr Stephen Seiler as the guest. Also, have a look at Phil Maffetone and apply his (180-age) formula to find your target 'maximum aerobic function' HR. In your case you'll probably need to subtract an extra 5 beats from that value being a new runner.

[f1madman Graduate in reply to John_W]

1. Thank you and thanks for the time you've taken to respond, I've had to log into a PC instead of my phone to respond lol.

2. Thanks, I do get carried away with the stats, maybe I'm putting too much faith in the data, its definitely helping me in terms motivation. One of the main reasons I'm using heart rate to pace myself is... basically pace myself. Some of the earlier runs I had gone out too quickly and injured my knees. I feel montoring my HR actually stops me running too fast, and adds an element to focus to my runs and while improving aerobic fitness to keep me motivated.

3. I actually read it on a link someone posted on this forum a few weeks ago. For some reason 75%-80% of MaxHR has stuck in my head. I cant find the link right now but I'll keep a look out. Oh god I hope I'm not middling in the wrong zone all this time, it does feel quite comfortable though and I can easily have a conversation until I get quite close to zone 4. I'm 32 so Max HR is approximately around 188.

4. Aww, yeah I was only expecting tiny improvements if any before plateuing. Was just happy to have actually seem to have improved, despite little to no change in my running effort.

5. Thanks I'll have a look, its good to know I need to drop down a few beats to what I was doing instead of waisting too much time running too hard.

[Tasha99 Graduate in reply to f1madman]

I can categorically say zone 3 works. 70-80%.

“Zone 3 is where your body gets the most cardiovascular benefit, and it’s sometimes referred to as the aerobic zone. When it comes to developing stamina and increasing aerobic capacity, zone three is the magic spot.”

[John_W Graduate in reply to Tasha99]

Is that referring to a 5-zone model or 9 or ?

Interested to know where that quote is from. Thanks.

[Tasha99 Graduate in reply to John_W]

5. Runners world article but there are loads of articles about zone 3.

[John_W Graduate in reply to f1madman]

Hi,

Apologies - I was getting mixed up with % WHR (working heart rate), so as Tasha99 says, 70-80% of max HR (MHR) is a good place to be for improving aerobic fitness (if you're going to go by HR). I'd certainly err on the lower side of that by the way (70-75% - but that depends on what you're to achieve) - but that whole way of heart-rate training relies on having an accurate measurement of your MHR. And the (220-age) calculation is notoriously unreliable. My (220-age) is 169 bpm, but I know my current max is around 178/179.

But looking at your screenshots, if you're averaging around 145 bpm as a 32 year old, I'd say you're in the perfect place (ha! completely the opposite of my original reply! hahaa) . The best metric is actually how you feel - so if it feels easy and you can talk (the 'talk test' is great) then go with that.

Some articles here that Tasha will no doubt recognise:

runnersworld.com/beginner/a... (Tasha quotes this one - Zone 3 etc. Again, depends on what you're trying to achieve, but in that model described, I'm not sure i like the idea of all my runs being classed as Tempo! Z2 and 5 for me - polarised!)

runnersworld.com/uk/trainin...

runnersworld.com/training/a...

Polar also work on a 5-zone model and suggests sticking to Zone 2, 60-70% of MHR (or HRmax ) polar.com/blog/running-hear.... "This is the zone that improves your general endurance: your body will get better at oxidizing – burning – fat and your muscular fitness will increase along with your capillary density.

Training in heart rate zone 2 is an essential part of every exercise program. Keep at it and you’ll reap the benefits later. "

[Tasha99 Graduate in reply to John_W]

I think it’s a fantastic way of training John. Can’t believe the effect it’s had on me. I started out at the top of zone 3 as found it harder to stay in that limit but now I’m used to it I’ve brought it down to the lower part of that zone. The calculation is a load of rubbish. I don’t know anyone who that works for 🤷🏽‍♀️

I’m going to get a lab test done when everything gets back to normal as my watch is sometimes random. I tried a chest strap but got massive spikes in hr. wondered if it’s static. Like into 190s when even in speed sessions I’d rarely go into the 170s. Anyway I find it quite interesting.

[John_W Graduate in reply to Tasha99]

I find it fascinating and I'm a complete convert to it. I get the odd spike from my chest-strap but much prefer to the random-generator that was my optical-based wrist measurement!

[Tasha99 Graduate in reply to John_W]

I might try one again. I tried the garmin soft strap and a polar one. Which do you have?

[John_W Graduate in reply to Tasha99]

I use a cheap one from Amazon - CooSpo from China. Was fine for a year or so, but after a dodgy spell have realised that the contacts wear down over time and need to use combination of wet skin and thin smear of liquid soap (handwash) with its electrolytes in to help electrical conduction. No issues now.

[RunWillie Graduate in reply to John_W]

I’ve been low heart training using the MAF formula. I’m 46years and a new runner so it’s 129 for me. It has taken 12 attempts before I could run without walking but I can now run mostly without walking although it’s still way off the pace I was running. My question is can I trust my Garmin Fenix or should I be using a chest strap? I like just using my watch but if I’m going to commit to 6 months of this, it would be good to know if the heart rate is accurate.

[Tasha99 Graduate in reply to RunWillie]

I’ve done it all with a garmin Watch as kept getting ridiculous spikes on a chest strap. Watches are fine for a ball park guide and fairly accurate. I think chest straps are more accurate though in general and I’m thinking of trying a third. I might be quite a staticky person causing spikes. Other people I know have been fine with them. They’re not expensive really.

[RunWillie Graduate in reply to Tasha99]

Thanks Tasha99

That’s super helpful. Think I will carry on with the watch for now and look out for a deal on a chest strap at some point.

[John_W Graduate in reply to RunWillie]

As long as you're not getting any silly numbers (often due to 'cadence lock'), then your watch should be just fine. As for MAF, I've been doing same since last autumn - my 'natural' pace is around 8 min/mile but my MAF pace is anything from 9:30-11min /mile depending on my fitness.

[RunWillie Graduate in reply to John_W]

Thanks John_W

That’s great to know. I’m convinced MAF is the way to go for me to safely build a running base. I would like to do a HM at some point. The first couple of weeks was tough going and it’s still humiliating on Strava😂

[John_W Graduate in reply to RunWillie]

I never worry about what goes on Strava As for MAF, no harm chucking in a speedy session (hills, intervals, tempo etc) once in a while. The 80/20 principle is a good one.

[RunWillie Graduate in reply to John_W]

I’ve just read 80/20 running by Matt Fitzgerald and that’s where I would love to end up. Will stick to MAF miles until I’ve learned how to run at a low heart rate. Early days for me as a runner. I completed C25K in April and ran 10k in July. I’m so thankful for this forum and all the wisdom you all share 👍🏻

[f1madman Graduate in reply to RunWillie]

Yesterday I ran in zone 2, was much slower felt like one of my earlier runs and I noticed that polar predicted I burnt more fat than I did when I ran at zone 3..... Hopefully I've not been running too fast, I always try to be able to speak in full sentences though.

Also what is MAF?

[RunWillie Graduate in reply to f1madman]

Google Dr Phil Maffetone which will explain more than I can. I’m certainly no expert as I’ve only been trying to run to a low heart rate for a few weeks. Sorry to hijack your post with my questions.

[Ant50 Graduate]

I’ve been consolidation running for about 11 months now. I focused just on making sure I continued to run three times a week, making running part of my routine. Initially after graduation I didn’t run thinking about speed or distance, just tried to do 5km three times a week (graduated at almost 5k distance). After a few weeks I noticed my 5k speed had increased by a good 10% making me sub 30 mins and I found I could also push the distance. For the last few weeks I have been trying to slow right down and that means I have now run a few 7.5km and even one 8km run, so the stamina is building. So, my advice is to take it steady and just build stamina as distance and speed improvements will come over time, but don’t expect them within a week or two. In fact if you do expect rapid improvement it can become a negative if you don’t achieve it, which in turn leads to the “why am I bothering” thought. Just focus on making running a regular event, believe me post C25K there will be times when just getting out the door can be the biggest achievement. By the way, what App do you use to track your stats as it’s a nice overview. Good luck with future runs.

[f1madman Graduate in reply to Ant50]

Thanks yeah I didn't actually expect much improvements to happen quickly since I'm running quite slow to begin with. I'm using polar flow app, its OK could be better at showing the data, I had to do a little bit of photo gymnastics to show things side by side.

[Ant50 Graduate in reply to f1madman]

Thanks I will take a look at the Polar trackers as I am not familiar with them and I think my Fitbit will be due an upgrade soon !

[MontyMooDog Graduate]

Am following a similar pattern. Doing one 5K per week for my Virtual 5K club on here, one longer slower run and one shorter faster. Definitely noticing the improvement in both speed and stamina when I want to🏃👍😀

[f1madman Graduate in reply to MontyMooDog]

Well done Monty, keep it up!

[MontyMooDog Graduate in reply to f1madman]

👍

[Hidden]

Have you tried the fitness test on your polar? I’m miserably low at 31 but I was 29 when started walking back in January so I can see the hard work is paying off.

[f1madman Graduate in reply to Hidden]

Well done you're improving atleast, which is the point right? I've done the test a couple of times, a couple of weeks apart and I've stayed at 48, which still leaves plenty of room for improvements.

[Hidden in reply to f1madman]

Wow that’s amazing!

[f1madman Graduate in reply to Hidden]

lol thanks its good atleast

[Hidden]

I couldn’t lower my heart rate whilst jogging for all the money in the world! I’m hoping over time it will drop tho

[John_W Graduate in reply to Hidden]

Another way to do it: switch your device display to show only heart rate and during your run, try to keep your heart rate constant. Stick to that heart rate for all your steady runs and over time, your pace will improve at that heart rate.

[Hidden in reply to John_W]

So even if it’s high?

[John_W Graduate in reply to Hidden]

See if you can target a lower heart rate, no matter what the pace is.

[Tasha99 Graduate in reply to Hidden]

Yes, just try and get it a little lower. Then gradually lower again till you’re in the right area. It takes a lot of perseverance.

[Hidden in reply to Tasha99]

I could walk it in those heart rates for a few months I suppose? I know as soon as I start jogging tho up it shoots! X I will try tomo and see what happened anyway thanks!

[Tasha99 Graduate in reply to Hidden]

Target something in zone 4 first maybe

[f1madman Graduate in reply to Hidden]

At first I used to almost come to a stop with my stride length and cadence coming right down to bring my heart rate down. Some people suggests slowing down to a walk until the heart rate comes down, before continuing the run.

[Hidden in reply to f1madman]

This is what I will have to do.

I will end up walking more than running though? It’s so annoying but I am only a super new runner and I can’t expect to be super fit in a few months 🤔

[Tasha99 Graduate in reply to Hidden]

It only takes a week or so to adapt to it. I couldn’t do it in my first attempt. Second attempt was a 47 minutes 5k. Now I can cover 5k in zone 3 in 32 minutes.

[Hidden in reply to Tasha99]

So it takes a week for the heart rate to drop? I think it may take a bit longer for me. I have been exercising since feb most days and I still have 161 bpm on my runs. For most of the run. And I’m only slow. Like a 47min 5k. I will try but I think it’s not going to happen for w long time unfortunately

[Tasha99 Graduate in reply to Hidden]

It’s a bit early for you to try it really. Not a week for it to drop but a week to be able to even get to zone 3. My body just didn’t know what was going on. Increasing pace in zone 3 takes months/years. After a week or two I was able to get down to zone 3. Albeit very slowly.

[PhoenixRise Graduate]

Great improvements from your consolidation runs! I’m in my 4th Week of consolidations and I’m noticing a huge difference. I’m preparing to start the Magic 10K plan next week and I’ve been mixing up my runs with the C25K+ Stepping Stone podcasts (one short interval run and 2 longer runs) and MontyMooDog’s Weekly Virtual 5K. You’re on the right path! 💪🏻

[f1madman Graduate in reply to PhoenixRise]

Well done, good luck with the Magic 10k, I think I'll give it a few months vefore I attempt that at some point.

Whats does the stepping stones podcast involve?

[PhoenixRise Graduate in reply to f1madman]

The Stepping Stones podcast has three episodes:

Stepping Stone (35 mins)

Stamina (35 mins)

Speed (15 mins)

You can find them here: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podca...

[Tinytears60 Graduate]

That’s fab! 👏👏👏

I’ve not got a smart watch so can only measure myself by how I feel and what I’m accomplishing... I’m sure I’m getting better.. fitter tho which is what I set out to do!

Well done Mister!

Consistently running 3 times a week will make sure we improve our ability - 👏👏

[John_W Graduate in reply to Tinytears60]

An awful lot of running coaches will say that running by feel is far better than being slave to a running watch.

[Tinytears60 Graduate in reply to John_W]

I have mixed feelings on the smart watches . I love the stats but I think I could get anxiety if it didn’t read what I wanted it to...

Never say never but it would be a de- motivator to me rather than a motivator... so for now will stick with the feel 👌

Thanks 🙏🏻

[f1madman Graduate in reply to Tinytears60]

That sounds great well done! You dont need a smart watch or a smart phone tbh, and as long as you're running and feeling good thats what matters

[Jell6 Graduate]

Well I haven't captured it on a graph but my stamina and fitness have certainly improved, I daresay I have got quicker too, but I go out for a minimum 25 minutes x 3 per week, no pressure, more enjoyable and generally end up going longer.

Very occasionally I will do week 1 run 1, now that does tell me how far I have come!!

[f1madman Graduate in reply to Jell6]

Thats great to hear, well done on improving your fitness. I suppose you pretty much steam roll wk1r1 now?

[Jell6 Graduate in reply to f1madman]

Yes, but I always reflect on how I felt the first time 🚑🚑🚑

[Tasha99 Graduate]

I’ve had HUGE success in zone 3 training. My 5k pb in February was something like 27:47. After 3 months training in zone 3 (with weekly tempo and speed sessions) I knocked that down to 25:43. The actual parkrun course took it to 26:05 I think.

What I’d suggest is that you start upping your distance once a week. You need to aim for 5k, then maybe consider bridging to 10k. Look at the magic plan in the bridge to 10k forum. Once a week also (not on the longer run), try a faster pace, maybe do a 2-3k fast.

They key ratio is 80/20: 80% zone 3 and 20% zone 4-5.

[f1madman Graduate in reply to Tasha99]

Thank you for the tips. I'm glad you've had so much success with your plan