Graduation feels a bit flat!!

[ambler1]

So last week I did my final run of C25K. But it was a struggle! In fact the last two runs of week 9 were a struggle although the first one wasnt. I feel a bit flat now. I like having the voice in my ear encouraging me on. And I dont feel I graduated properly as I walked for a few seconds two or three times in those last two runs. I shall do Week 9 again I think. Any ideas ????

[UnfitNoMore Graduate]

Congratulations. Some runs are tougher than others... be proud and celebrate! Consolidation is advised now so keep repeating week 9 runs until they’re comfortable/easy. Happy running.

[Oldman51 Graduate in reply to UnfitNoMore]

But there's the problem. What if 30 minute 'runs' never become comfortable/easy? They haven't for me after 30+ consolidation runs!

[UnfitNoMore Graduate in reply to Oldman51]

Well, in this case there is evidence that it will come as W9R1 wasn’t a struggle, and that very strongly suggests that 30 minutes will become comfortable.

In general, as the vast majority of us aren’t “non-responders” and most of those given that tag in the study you quoted were, in fact, able to improve when they upped the intensity in the follow up to the study, there are very few people who will not be able to continue improving to a 30 minutes is comfortable stage.

Any true non responder wouldn’t be celebrating graduation unless they were capable of running 30 minutes already when they started... I have yet to encounter such a person on here or during my running days at school... accepted some were better responders than others, but everyone improved... and I didn’t meet anyone who could just run 3k on day one.

So, are there people for which 30 minutes or 5k is the limit? Maybe, very possibly, and maybe those people will never find it easy. I don’t know what we are calling this group as they responded and then that response stalled, stalled responders? Like the study, I would think that for many of them increasing weekly intensity would restart the response, so as we can’t go longer we would have to go more runs, which isn’t recommended until we’ve been running for a year. It would be an interesting study and maybe someone is on it, if they can find enough people in your circumstance... maybe contact the university from the earlier studies as I assume they are still researching the area.

[Oldman51 Graduate in reply to UnfitNoMore]

Your second paragraph is a bold statement. The DREW study which looked at the responses to exercise of sedentary postmenopausal women (very much the demographic that a health-orientated scheme like C25K should relate to) showed an overall non-response rate of 32%. A plus point of this study was the compliance with the exercise programs was very good and the drop-out rate very low. The problem with drawing from your anecdotes from schoolboy running or the enthusiasts posting here is that it discounts the experiences of so many others. I have seen figures elsewhere that the drop-out rate from C25K is something like 90%. Of course most of these people don't post here as they feel out of place next to the "lovely run", "high fives", "slaying gremlins" and "smashing PBs" fraternity. Sometimes it seems to be forgotten that this is a health site, not a hardcore running site.

I don't see your need for a "stalled responder" category. Surely everyone reaches a plateau? Or are you going to get better and better until you do 5K in 13.09 (Mo Farah's time)?

[UnfitNoMore Graduate in reply to Oldman51]

The previous study, with it’s +/- 4% built in error was, while not debunked, proven to be wildly out with its estimation of around (iirc) 15% non response rate. Also the type of exercise would, rather obviously, be another factor for many. My experiences in and around running are not limited to childhood, and if the non responder status was widespread, as said a couple of months ago, the coaches and running clubs all over the world would have been aware of it years ago... granted there logically would be a small proportion of the population that would be in this category, but I don’t for a second but it’s anywhere near the levels that the odd study puts forward.

Stalled response, for me would be those who do respond and then, as you say plateau... but could/would improve potentially under a different training plan.

Speed and ability to run distance are not really related. After watching Breaking2, the conclusions at the end were that the 2 hour barrier will be broken, it would almost certainly be by someone with a lot of distance running in their childhood, with a high chance of a lot of that being barefooted and from Kenya or a close neighbouring country. Sir Mo ticks at least two of those boxes... Possibly all 3. They will also train either at altitude or in the more controversial “high altitude” houses as per Nike’s Oregon Project, of which Mo was a member for years, including his Olympic 5k and 10k ones. Can I ever beat him... unlikely, infinite speed progression was possible, he’d have a head start no? Of course, 13:09 is actually no longer likely for him, hence his retirement from track athletics. As we get older one of the major factors isn’t health though, it’s stride length which shortens as we get older... maybe it’s possible to slow that process or delay it, but I’m certainly into it.

There have been many studies of how long it takes to reach peak fitness and one I read says it takes 5-7 years to do... the shortest I’ve read cited was 2 years plus. It is also impossible to hit peak fitness and maintain it for even months, which is why Kipchoge still has coaches planning his training in intricate detail to peak him on race day twice a year. Will I run faster than any of these guys? Not a prayer. Can I run further than them? Maybe... there’s lots of people who do.

So my argument isn’t for unending improvement, though maybe it’s possible if age grading is factored in, due to technique and technology advances. My argument is that a non responder wouldn’t complete C25K, and if somehow even that was possible, the odds on 30 minutes being their limit of endurance and fitness would be incredibly small, so I while I do believe in non responders, I don’t believe, by definition, there can be one with a graduate badge on this server.

This is indeed a health site... but this forum is a running one. Inability to run isn’t a health condition for most, and there are many other ways to gain health... so yes there are going to be a lot of people on here who like running. It’s not all glory... sometimes it’s defeat, and I happen to think that the encouragement on here when someone fails to complete a run helps a lot, many people have stated this opinion too. The admins and HU seem to think what goes on here meets the brief, you seem to have an issue with it, and I really don’t know why.

Also, the drew study predates all the news stories that state that exercise non responders are a myth, and that some individuals do not respond to some exercise programmes, but do to others... which makes a lot of sense to me.

“CONCLUSION: Women that were younger, less fit, or exercised more during the DREW trial had greater odds of improving their fitness with training. The most important finding of this study was that greater volumes of exercise were associated with a lower probability of being a nonresponder.” That’s really poor concluding as it says the results were rubbish... if you have a higher probability of responding to a larger volume of exercise, that means it’s not the person, it’s the exercise that makes the difference... no?

[Oldman51 Graduate in reply to UnfitNoMore]

"the odds on 30 minutes being their limit of endurance and fitness would be incredibly small, so I while I do believe in non responders, I don’t believe, by definition, there can be one with a graduate badge on this server." Does a mechanism exist for confiscating the graduate badge?

[UnfitNoMore Graduate in reply to Oldman51]

Actually, what I said was wrong... non responders do not exist according to scientific investigation... everybody responds to something, just not necessarily every activity.

If non responders existed, they wouldn’t graduate.

For some intervals work and endurance doesn’t work as well, if that was me I’d run intervals... running plans generally involve both anyway.

Yes, you can request your badge removed.

[ButtercupKid Graduate]

Go for it ! There’s no way of doing this wrong, except starting at week 9 and going backwards - and now you’ve graduated you can even do that if you want to ! Live adventurously, as the Quakers say, and happy running x

[IannodaTruffe Mentor]

Many congratulations on your graduation, fellow runner.

This guide to post C25k running may be helpful healthunlocked.com/couchto5...

As UnfitNoMore says, it is advisable to keep repeating those thirty minute runs for a few weeks, until you are managing them comfortably, before moving on.

Keep running, keep smiling.

[Auntiedave Graduate]

Congratulations. My week 9 was exactly the same, first run great , 2/3 horrid. First run after graduation was really enjoyable. You have graduated so all the next runs should be for fun , you can now just run because you want too.