British Liver Trust
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Have Faith

Well hello,

I just wanted to give some of encouragement words. Always have faith, hope and believe in yourself.

I had hepatitis c (chronic) twenty years . I have been cured 2 years now and also from stage 4 to stage 1 cirrhosis. I believe God is a amazing Father and healer.... May God heal and bless to all.

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Oh wow...Amazing...so you had no treatment for the Hep C?

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Harvoni

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Is there confusion between FIBROSIS and CIRRHOSIS here? I was under the impression that F4 cirrhosis or end stage liver disease couldn’t be “reversed” without a transplant.

Please correct me if I’m wrong?

Cheers,

Brett

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I must say that's what man says..

I myself am a believer in God and his son Jesus... If you ask for healing through our savior stripes and know it in your heart , he heals and fills our ever needs. God bless

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Amen

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Every year, about 31,000 people in the U.S. die from cirrhosis, mainly due to alcoholic liver disease and chronic hepatitis C. The disease cannot be reversed or cured except, in some cases, through a liver transplant. It can often be slowed or halted, however, especially if the disease is detected in the early stages of development

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Yes, cirrhosis is irreversible. I hope for Stacey, regardless that it did heal no Cirrhosis. Or maybe there wasn't an over diagnosis and it really wasn't F4 at the time. Harvoni is a real break through. My mother took and it she is clear from Hep C. She got it from my dad who got it in the Vietnam War from the Marine Corp. Fatty liver can heal back to normal.

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Well I was on my last leg. And not a good candidate either for a transplant. God works miracles everyday. I myself am a living proof. I see a liver Dr only once a year now. I gave it to God.... Prayers and believing in healing and trust in Father's scripture we are healed. So my Dr.. is amazed .. I owe it to God my Father that is awesomeness

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Hi Brett, you are right. Cirrhosis is irreversible as far as I'm aware. Take care mate.

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Cirrhosis reverses in very rare cases. Basically as my doctor put it was " get it out of your mind because the odds of it happening are basically not worth hoping for it." . However it does happen.

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Yes, that is how I understood it. The cases that do reverse are negligible in number, as pointed out by your doctor, so few in fact that it is regarded generally as being irreversible. That is what I meant. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Take care

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With regard to Staceystacey, perhaps she's gone from decompensated to compensated, a quite common occurrence with the right care and diet regimen and is perhaps a more pragmatic explaination for her recovery than divine intervention. Take care.

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She means she went from stage 4 cirrhosis to stage one cirrhosis. She didnt say stage 4 liver disease to stage 1 liver disease. There is a difference. Basically from what the post states is that she went from decompensated to compensated cirrhosis.

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I’m confused with your reply Phoenix? I never said that she went from stage 4 liver disease to stage 1 liver disease. I am still F4 compensated cirrhosis. You can’t “heal” it and move to stage 1 compensated cirrhosis from stage 4 compensated cirrhosis. You can heal from fibrosis but not cirrhosis. It doesn’t matter how good your blood results are. My bloods are brilliant. Not showing any liver problems but the fact is that I’m still stage 4 compensated cirrhosis. I was F4 decompensated cirrhosis at one stage but no amount of hoping or praying took me down to F1 cirrhosis. That’s my point.

Cheers,

Brett

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Hi Brett, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Cirrhosis is called End Stage Liver Disease for good reason. You cannot 'repair' a cirrhotic liver because the reason it's cirrhotic in the first place is due to it repairing itself time and again until it's so compromised it cannot repair itself anymore. It basically becomes a blood-starved lump of scar tissue. Nothing can alter the cirrhotic state but it's function can sometimes become compensated. I think I'm right in what I say but anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Take care, mate.

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Hey Brett. I'll explain further. There is no such thing as F1 cirrhosis. F1 is the starting stage of fibrosis. "F" stands for fibrosis. The metivar scale has 4 categories for fibrosis. F1 F2 F3 and F4 . The first 3 are not cirrhosis. Stage 4 fibrosis is cirrhosis. IE cirrhosis is just the name given to F4 fibrosis. Now within the F4 range (Cirrhosis) there are 4 categories. The first 2 being compensated and the last 2 being decompensated. So from what StacyStacys post indicates is that she went from the 4th category of cirrhosis which is decompensated down to the first category which is compensated. She did not go from cirrhosis (F4 fibrosis) down to F1 fibrosis. Not sure how it works with hep c. But as an example most alcoholics can go from stage 3 or 4 decompensated cirrhosis to a stage 1 or 2 compensated cirrhosis simply by stopping drinking.

Again a person can go from F4 fibrosis (cirhossis) down to F1 fibrosis. But as I said the odds of that happening are so unlikely that it is the reason why cirrhosis is general considered irrversible as BSA-3 stated.

Hope that makes more sense.

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This is very interesting. No-one has ever explained this to me in this way. How did you come by this astounding amount of knowledge? Could you explain further as to why there are two stages of decompensated cirrhosis and do you know what the difference is? Your post does raise a lot of questions for me, but I'll stick with these for now lol :) Thanks in advance and thanks for posting such a detailed response. It's always interesting to learn more :)

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I agree.. maybe the liver trust can do an “idiots” guide. It would be great without medical speak. Or maybe Phoenix could do a post about it? It would help a lot of people on here to understand more about what they have. I know that the answers are out there but to have them in one easy to read post would be great.

Cheers,

Brett

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I can definately do that. Im glad it may have helped in anyway it can!

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I have a close friend of the family that is a doctor. I aldo read tons of medical journals and medical textbooks. Im glad I habe been able to explain it in a way that helped you understand 😊. I will take what brett has said about making a post so everyone can see it. But to amswer your question. Basically the stages of cirrhosis are divided by the clinical presentation of the livers function. As you may know there are many symptoms cirrhosis can give. Itching or red palms or an enlarged spleen etc. But not everyone gets these symptoms and they are not indicative of what stage. They also dont mean any danger to a person. However what is dangerous is when portal hypertension happens. That is when the vein that supplies the liver with blood known as the " the portal vein" builds up blood pressure within it. This pressure causes two very dangerous occurances. One being what is known as "ascites" which is when the pressure causes the liver to almost literally sweat out a or leak a protien containg fluid known as "ascitic fluid " into the abdomen. The second thing portal hyper tension does is that with the build up of the blood pressure to the liver it tries to relive it by sending it to other places. Usually it will send it up into veins in your esophagus known as varices veins. These viens can burst from the pressure the liver has used to push the blood into them causing bleeding into the stomach. So stages typically are as follows :

Compensated stage 1: You dont have ascites and you dont have varices viens. (Many people have no symptoms of their cirrhosis at all at this stage which is why cirrhosis most of the time doesnt get diagnosed until its more progressed as people at this stage are unaware that they have it.)

Compensated stage 2: You have developed varices in your esophagus that have not burst but still don't have ascites.

Decompensated stage 1: You have varices veins that have not burst and you have developed ascites.

Decompensated stage 2: You now have ascites and your varices have started to bleed. (At this point your liver is really struggling to function and left without a transplant will result in failure of the liver).

The reason these stages exisit is because life expectancy drastically changes in each one. Because liver disease has no cure aside of the liver reversing the damage which is unlikely once the fibrosis (scarring) is bad enough that the fibrosis has become substantial enough to be deemed fibrosis stage 4 (F4 on the metivar scale aka cirrhosis) the only thing doctors can do is try to manage the decompensated symptoms by draining the ascites fluid on a regular basis from your stomach and doing scopes to check for varices and putting bands around them so they dont burst in your esophagus.

This is why doctors hesitate to give life expectancy prognosis to compensated patients. Because a person could technically live a whole life as long as they stay compensated. The time it takes for it to progress to decompensated varies in every person. Because of this variation a doctor could never tell a compensated person acurately what the life expactancy is.

I hope this explanation helps you and please ask any questions that come to you. 😊

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See, that’s where I get confused also. I have had varices and ascites and jaundice and HE. So I was stage two decompensated. My liver is still exactly the same but the drugs I take now help stop the symptoms so now I’m compensated stage one due to the drugs I’m on.

I think that’s correct?

So if I stop my drugs, I’ll go back to being decompensated stage two?

Cheers,

Brett

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No because the symptoms are being managed not reversed. In order to be in compensated stage one youd have to not have ascites or varices because your liver is not producing that result. Stage one compensated doesnt require medication as its simply that those symptoms dont exist. In your situation you have those symptoms but they are stable because the medication is managing them. But if you stopped the medication the then yes the clinical presentation of those symptoms will return. Its kind of the same as how cold medication can alliviate the symptoms of a cold. Yet the cold virus is still in you. Hence why when the cold medicstion wears off or if you stop taking it the symptoms of the cold return. In order for a cold to have no symptoms without medication than one needs to not have a cold. If that analogy makes sense. Now you could return to compensated stage one and not need medication but the only way for that to happen is for the liver to repair and reverse some of the damage. Which depending on what has caused your cirrhosis it is possible.

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So in short you are right that if you stopped the drugs the symptoms would return. Just incorrect about the staging as you are still in the same stage just being managed.

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Many thanks for taking the time to respond so fully to my query. I very much appreciate the time and effort that you have made here. As a word of caution, whilst they may have these clearly defined stages, the jorney I have taken does not actually conform to these stages, so this may also be true for others.

To be clear, I did have burst veins, but no evidence of ascites, but still classed as decompensated. Secondly, food poisoning caused a "flare" of my AIH. No burst veins, but some ascites. Classed as decompensated. I did on both occasions go back to being compensated and this continues to be the case with meds. :)

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It looks as if the Metavir scale only applies to Hepatitis C scoring. I wonder if these four stages for F4 apply to other conditions of the liver?

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The metivar scale applies to all liver disease as it is a measure of fibrosis (scarring) regardless of what type of liver disease has caused the scarring.

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Cirrhosis has been known to go from F4 to F2 , in quite a few cases where Hep C has been treated with the newer drugs . In the rarer instances I has happened with fatty liver disease too. The medical profession are started to believe that in some cases there is this possibility , much sientific work is presently being done to examine this more. So hold onto to your hats folks , they are learning more and more and testing is in very early stages with some drugs presently .

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Now that DOES sound encouraging and realistic 😀I'm affraid I don't believe in the power of prayer or double sided sticky tape !

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Hi Laura, me neither ! 😃

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Hi Nick x

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Good morning to you too, Laura 😃

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Me neither although, I am in favour of double sided sticky tape though lol

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Has it helped your hernia?

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Lol. No! Herniaville now has her own airport and postcode. I think she is planning a nuclear war on me?

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😂😂😂you are so funny Brett... love ya x

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Hi Bermuda1, are the instances of Stage improvement more prevalent in hep c cases ? I don't think I've ever heard or read of an alcoholic cirrhosis improvement and, in fact, as I understand it, the prognosis for alcoholic cirrhosis is slightly less than that for other types. Am I right in thinking this ? Take care.

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I never study alcohol cirrhosis.

My cirrhosis was do to Chronic hepatitis for twenty years.

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Yes they are in the main from the result of Hep C treatment new treatments , much less.people.with fatty liver and very few with ALD . I do wonder with fatty liver and Ald whether these cases were borderline cirrhotic in the first place . Apology there are many instances of people being at deaths door.and going on to be compensated and living pretty well with alcohol.related cirrhosis . How much is down to good healthy living or genetics or both the medical.profession do not seem to know yet . Even with improvements you would still need to be monitored for life as the risk of developing cancer still.appears to remain . Early days yet , but some great clinical work is taking place to try and improve regeneration.

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Yes it can go from F4 to F2 but its extremly rare. There is a drug in the works known as the RSK inhibitor. In fibrosis collogen is what causes the scarring.In the same way it does when you cut your finger or arm. HSC cells (hyper stellate cells) initiate this collegen response. And a protien known as RSK intiate the HSC cells. Long story short this inhibitor will prevent the initiation process and prevent the scarring from happening. The inhibitor has proven to work in lab mice that had been given toxins to force liver damage to occur. They are awaiting human trials to be permitted. It is also being thought that the inhibotor may also reverse existing fibrosis but that has not yet been proven in the lab mice. Regardless the idea of this inhibitor brings alot of hope and may someday what makes transplants less frequent and possibly the need for them erraticated. Of you habe time look it up .

😊

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Amen

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Thank you Stacey you are an inspiration I'm so glad you have been cured, stay well you have given me hope 💛

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Amen x

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God has a purpose for each and one of our lives. God bless youand always have faith because that's really where christ is ....

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Harvoni apparently cures 94 - 99% of hep C patients. But can not cure alcoholic cirrhosis.

I'm delighted you've found a cure for your condition x

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Yes it cures them of the hep c virus . But doesnt cure them from the cirrhosis the has caused. When you take away the "insult" as it is called ( in this case hep c virus being cured) than the liver will often return to compensated cirrhosis.

In alcoholic related cirrhosis . Alcohol is the " insult" . So stopping drinking as well often returns the liver from decompensated to compensated cirrhosis. I think alot of people have misunderstood this whole post. The cirrhosis has not been cured. Its still there. Just has become compensated. The hep c virus is what has been cured.

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It’s as clear as mud lol. I sort of understand it ? The liver doctor said yesterday that she hates using grades apart from compensated or decompensated. She said that I have compensated cirrhosis. I can get my head around that .

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Yea doctors say that because they cant always pinpoint what grade of cirrhosis .However the fact that it is indeed cirrhosis means its fibrosis stage 4 . As fibrosis 1 2 and 3 is not cirrhosiss. At the end of the day All the fibrosis grades mean is a measure of the severity of scarring. Scarring can be reversed in f1 f2 and f3 but not in f4. Thats why f4 has a special name of cirrhosis. Whats important is if its compensated or decompensated. And your compensated so thats great. As long as it stays compensated everything is good!

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These cirrhosis gradings really are confusing. Thankfully I don't suffer from any of the illnesses and conditions of most of the folk on this forum. My husbands was never 'graded' it was .... ' you have cirrhosis of the liver you must stop drinking now if you want a chance of getting a transplant' to ' your husband has pneumonia, liver failure and kidney failure needs double transplant but has only a maximum of 36 hours to live!' 3 hours later it was all over. I'm thankful for the honesty of the professionals rather than trying to sugar coat the truth. Maybe things have changed over the last 8 years and feel the experts feel the need to give gradings for each test they take and each blood result they give. From reading posts, these results appear to me to be conflicting and misleading. Sometimes it's almost better to just give it a title, prescribe the treatments ( if any) offer life style change and advice to assist in recovery and stay blissfully ignorant of the figures and gradings which obviously confuse many.

Stay strong, keep cool, enjoy life and be happy for as long as you possibly can 💪 😎😆

Love to you all xx

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F4 is Cirrhosis, but I'd like to point out F3 is considered bridging Fibrosis, where it becomes a Domino effect where it can lead to cirrhosis F4 even after whatever has been harming the liver is taken out of the equation. Although F3 isn't cirrhosis, it's still a dangerous place to be.

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Agreed fully.

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Harvoni is the reason your liver and liver functions have improved as it’s removed the hep c allowing the liver to continue trying to repair itself but in most cases the hep c will have caused other damage mainly cirrhosis and at the moment there is no cure for that and it increases your risk of liver cancer HCC once you reach this stage if your lucky enough it’s a transplant as it was in my case.I should add that they now transplant donor livers with the hep c virus and treat them post TX quite amazing stuff .

Am a non believer but respect other people’s views but can’t quite understand where god comes into it more medical science

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I find it insulting when God is given credit for curing a disease instead of medical teams and their incredible breakthroughs.

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Me too.

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Hello, While i respect your right for religious freedom, and am pleased you 'Are cured " , upon reading the entire post and the replies, personally i do not feel that the faith comments were appropriate. Indeed, there seems to have been some confusion as a result with some folk not realising that your cure from Hep C was as a result of anti viral drugs and not ' Jesus Stripes " until corrected. Some users of this forum are scared and vunerable, others have mental health issues and although it is in the main a great group of people who look out for each other I do believe that God belongs in church. Anyway, that,s my opinion, I am so pleased you are doing so well. ☺😃

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Re the levels , I agree they are totally confusing , and I understand what they are . Also may I state they are not set in sone , I have known pre cirrhotic people get varices and they burst . I have been decompensated and quite ill and never had any sign of varices at all, I did initially have to be drained , paracentesis , due to the asites. Removing 10 litres a time. I am now quite fit and healthy , and take no meds at all . I have not had Hep C. In the long term I feel sure they will find ther are also genetic components to whether when you get certain aspects , eg the varices. Do you genetically have strong veins or not , do you have a history in your family of varicose veins and or piles ? I quite unusually have a total lay normal spleen of normal size too . So we are all different my personal view is one should tak these gratings as a snapshot in time , they are not fixed , they can go up and down. The trend data over a long period is much more a reliable guide, but that can also have variance in it too..

Admins I whole heartedly agree this is not a forum where religion should be praised. Many have a different god or gods, or may worship as a Pagan , or as a Satanist, or no religion . Please can any further references to religion such as this be removed.

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This has been a really good debate, and a number of issues have come to the surface here. Liver Disease as you'll all appreciate is an international research project. I know that there is a lot of really good work being carried out in Australia, the US, France and of course here in the UK. All this research is shared, but not always agreed upon. Tests are often redone over and over again before they become accepted. The same thing goes from certain types of medication. Just because something is deemed safe and accepted in America. It doesn't follow that it's acceptable in the UK.

I think there needs to be a common understanding when it comes to naming and categorising certain things. We as a species can't even agree on what a correct shoe size should be. That size 5 shoe in the UK is different to Europe and again the US. There needs to be an international standardised method of classification when talking about liver disease. There are some GP's and consultants out there, who seem to treat their patients, with a certain amount of contempt, "Oh, there's no point in me trying to explain your condition, you wouldn't understand". That's why so many of us come on sites like this in search for answers, and doing our own research. This obviously is fraught with dangers as Dr Google can lead us down some pretty doggy sites, and a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. (No disrespect intended here) but this is why I try to avoid so many American websites, as what is acceptable over there may not be recognised over here.

There is certainly a need for better clarification, but because different countries are doing things differently it maybe wrong to produce a leaflet here for the people of the UK, which may conflict with say America or France. etc.

I would just like to mention that we as humans are all free to follow our hearts and turn to religion if we see fit. I personally think that a persons belief should be kept private and not mentioned on here, as this can become inflammatory and offensive to others. Having said that, faith after all is about believing in something, the power of positive thought. Having a positive attitude can indeed improve a persons medical health and wellbeing.

(Climbs down off soapbox, and goes and gets some breakfast).

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I agree with you Richard.

Regarding the religion element here, I asked the mods about it and they said they will monitor this thread.

Sorry! I had to delete most of my post as it seemed a bit mean.

What I will say is that if I wanted to go to a church I would not like to sit there and listen to a liver doctor. Same goes for here.

I will go and crawl back into my box now and play with my hernia friend.

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Its really amazing and glad to hear u r recovering. I am also looking for support as my Father suffering from Liver Cirrhosis. I stay in India. Please help me

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