Good morning, first post here so apologies for anything that you deem incorrect
I had a stent fitted to a narrowed artery in March and the Hospital state I did have a mild heart attack around that time
prior to this I had completely changed my diet and exercise regime and had lost 18kg and felt the best I had felt in years - I think as I was spinning everyday the narrowed artery was highlighted as I was pushing my body more than I had ever done in the previous years
At this time I was taking a mild concoction of natural remedies and as I say felt great in mind and body
Vitamin D - 4000iu daily / Ashwagandha and Berberine
I have been told by hospital nurse / pharmacist not to take and of the above whilst I am now on a all the usual meds for my condition
At orcaStatin / aspirin / Rampiril / Lansoprazole and Copidogrel
I would love not to take any of the above Big Pharma drugs and honestly go natural with diet and what I feel natural remedies as above that was really helping me but understand some I do have to take
please be kind in your comments but does anyone firstly have any experience in Berberine and its interactions (or not) and secondly any experience of stopping the prescribed “norm” drug cocktail
Many thanks in advance and look forward to any answers or experienced people may have had 👍
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Huddy31
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I'll bet most people on here would like to cut down or reduce the medication they take for the ailments and conditions they have accumulated over their lifetime. I certainly do. However if you are like me you consider the risks of taking prescribed medication against the risks of not taking it and in most cases take the medication. As far as supplements and 'alternative' medication is concerned I personally don't bother. The industry is mostly unregulated and claims as to the actual benefits are carefully worded so that they appear attractive without any actual positive proof that they work. Nonetheless for some they may work, and for others there is the placebo effect. But if you are considering taking any supplement in addition to any conventional medication the advice on here is to go talk to a pharmacist who is qualified to advise on possible interactions, and any disadvantages should you wish to use the supplement as a substitute for prescribed medication
I too would love to cut down on meds, but recognise that I need them. The trouble with "natural" remedies is that they are unregulated, and if they actually have a medical effect, they may react with other medication, St John's wort for example.
Diet and exercise are probably the best things you can do to help yourself. Lots of good advice on the main BHF website.
Afternoon, yeh medications, I honestly think 6 months down the line my medications give me more moments of horribleness then the heart attack itself, but like many of us I will listen to the doctors and take my daily dose. There's scientific papers for and against the suite of medications given post heart attack , I prefer at this stage in my life to go with the 'for' and not risk putting anything in jeopardy. My wife and young daughter need me to be safe, so I will do my best to keep safe.
Your nurse is right .Unfortunately, although there are early studies with some promising results in the lab or small scale studies with humans and they know that things like Berberine could play a part in the care of people in the future , knowledge about the best reliable way to use natural supplements is not at a level that it could work universally and they do not have any safe guidelines for dose or timing to make it a safe preventative treatment for people with health issues yet.
Natural supplements are , however. potent and do cause changes in your body behaviour and chemistry in the same way that prescribed medications do. Whether it comes over the counter or from a prescription both are still " drugs" and your body sees both as a new chemical that it has to learn to deal with , being from an organic source doesn't necessarily mean its going to automatically be better for you as an individual.
Using both supplements and prescribed medication can be like accidentally overdosing on medications which lower your heart rate , blood pressure and blood sugar , and this can cause health issues or even hospitalisation in some cases.
In people with diagnosed conditions that need a consistent level of safe treatment everyday , which at the moment only prescribed medications can give them, it is necessary to avoid certain supplements because the prescribed meds do a very serious job for us and can't do that well or safely if they get mixed with natural supplements that are processed by the same pathway in the liver.
It's why many people can still include certain certain things like Garlic , Omega 3, CBD or CoQ10 in their diet in small amounts in foods but shouldn't use the supplements because the supplement includes a high dose of active ingredients in one go and this can cause very serious side effects, especially if the person also struggles with intermittent low blood pressure or heart rate , or has issues with insulin sensitivity or their kidney function.
Combining the two can cause toxicity and a build up of your prescribed medications in your system over time because the liver can't concentrate on metabolising them and removing any excess from the body efficiently.
Initially you might feel better , but over a number of weeks/ months as your body struggles with the work you can begin to feel worse.
If you've been put on a new medication and don't feel the symptoms until after that began you can make the mistake of always blaming the prescribed meds for the woes when , in fact, it is likely that high dose supplements you had been on for a while or decided to start taking at the same time that is the real problem.
It's why initial human tests to see if supplements can have an active effect on certain body activities are done in healthy people at first not those with illnesses that need treatment.
And only , then , do they slowly try seeing the effect of their use on people with an illness but whom may not be medicated , then those with some medications .
Often , the supplements alone or combined approach hits a brick wall when they reach human testing on actual patients because the adverse side effects spike and patients need to drop out for safety because of them.
Those patients whom are tested on supplement and medication combos are also under strict medical supervision when they try them , a supervision that is likely to be required if these options ever become safe treatment options , and that in itself is another obstacle because that sort of rigorous constant medical supervision and blood testing isn't something that could be made realistically available to every patient with these health problems, or feel convenient and without stress to the patient themselves.
And we are far from the point that a combination or supplement solution is even close to being available safely on the open market.
Until the right tested guidance is there to combine both supplements and prescribed medications with medical care together , it's better to take the pharmaceutical advice not to use them , and double check it on a recommended drug check site too , as sadly often GPs , pharmacist s and herbalists make the assumption that a herbal is probably safe or harmless like everyone else and say it's ok without really knowing anything about it .
It's better not to use yourself as a guinea pig when the illness you have could have serious implications if it's not treated properly.
I can only comment personally for us - firstly cast your searching net wider beyond both here and google.
My husband stopped statin and PPI (lanzaprazole) years ago.
Aspirin might be short term? We swapped to enteric coated to protect the gut for the period he took it.
If you’ve had a (minor) heart attack maybe see about an echocardiogram which would show up any structural permanent damage to your heart which would inform future both choices of pharmaceuticals (such as type of “blood thinner”) and supplements.
A good term to look up is “drug mugger”, many pharmaceuticals either deplete or block natural substances so supplementing with some is what we do (for example if on statin supplement with Co-q10).
PPIs are a whole topic on their own and varying views on their longterm consequences (and withdrawal issues).
Not written to stir or frighten at all, we just prefer to take a very proactive role in all aspects of our care and currently balance a few necessary pharmaceuticals with many supplements.
Best of luck and super well done for changing your diet for the better and getting fit!
I would suggest not searching the term “drug mugger”. You will find no credible research, and a load of misinformation available via self-published, non peer reviewed “books”.
Each to one own. I mentioned it as an easy in to wider research as there are then links to specific medical studies and I would assume pubmed et al are credible sources of research.
I did not intend to go down a specific rabbit hole but to merely encourage further research if that is what one wants. Yes I used the colloquial term “drug muggers” as I said as in ‘in’, one can of course search for other phrases such as nutrition depletion, blocking, pathways etc.
I prefer to have a wide range of research papers/opinions/views to inform and aid my personal situation.
As asked here is an example list of co-Q10 references - and no not from the book “Drug Muggers” although I do not see what would be wrong with that - a research reference is a research reference is a…
Thank you for that. At first glance almost all of the research is decades old. Going from the titles, most of it looks irrelevant, however, I shall check some of them out in detail.
We’ve got to be very careful on here with regard to research claims. Many can be potentially damaging. I’m fortunate to have a research background, so feel a duty to scrutinise alternative claims.
I understand, we all have to be careful on all front. And I appreciate the links are older albeit I doubt all redundant. I have no time right now to delve into this, I have much else calling my attention so my quick solution was to grab a ready at hand collection.
OK, so in more recent research, it shows promise for treating colorectal disease. All of the studies conclude that it needs clinical trials, particularly to identify toxicity and effects on the liver. There appears to be little, or no, research into drug interactions.
Personally, I’d monitor the research but stick with the tested medication.
I’d absolutely avoid reading anythign that talks of drug muggers!
The forum isn't biased , and we don't censor differing opinions , but we do have the right to question those opinions and disagree with them , or give an alternative view based on medical research so that other forum members get to see a more rounded but positive discussion on the topics.I'm sure you can understand that , that is a more proactive and broad approach rather than censorship.
There is a big difference though between supplementing with certain essentials vitamins and minerals which can be harder to absorb on certain medications like B12, Folates and Vitamin D or Iron when tested as required, and just taking high dose supplements which you might not need because your levels are in range, which cause symptoms in themselves, and interact with your medications in a bad way at high doses , like CoQ10, Berberine, Reservratol, Magnesium and various other natural products that affect heart rhythm.
"Drug Mugger" isn't really a good term , as it doesn't paint the entire picture and as ever stigmatizes the medication as being entirely responsible for the change in your nutrient levels which isn't actually true.
Yes, many medications can cause a depletion in nutrients because they can affect stomach acid and how well the gut absorbs things from foods or medicine , and some can affect your insulin sensitivity, but having a chronic health condition that requires daily recovery and extra work from your body to manage the symptoms does that too.
The prescribed medication may use up more nutrient resources because your body needs them to help process it , but your body would also become deplete in those nutrients trying to cope with the symptoms of a unmanaged or poorly controlled health issues .
The illness uses up far more of your body's nutrient resources than processing the medicine that can treat it does.
The medication may cause some depletion in essential nutrients or insulin sensitivity but it does this while doing the positive job of keeping you from becoming seriously ill or having a major health event. And good Self Care prevents that as well.
Illness and it's effects is far more responsible for malnourishment than medications are , even if you eat properly or take supplements , long term uncontrolled illness can eventually cause other health issues including a higher risk of Type 2 Diabetes.
The majority of the vitamins , minerals and nutrients that can become depleted from illness or medication use should still be improved with a nutrient rich diet , which medical information for your illnesses recommend , they advise eating more foods that contain things like CoQ10 , vitamin C , essential vitamins and minerals etc. to restore the balance as sensible self care.
They just don't recommend ,or advise against, certain high dose supplements like CoQ10 and Reservratol , Garlic , Turmeric and in certain cases Magnesium because the doses or ingredients are what interacts with your medicines and the doses can be the cause of changes in heart rhythm and bleeding times that make you more ill, whether you take prescribed medicines or not.
Even if with supplements that you may be advised to take if a deficiency occurs the spacings between when you take them and when you take your required medication is important to prevent side effects .
It’s almost as some people forget that they can also obtain nutrients from their diets, as if they think if it’s not from a pill then it doesn’t count. My own preference is a food first approach and to supplement only if I have a need. It’s always worth getting your levels checked for vitamin D, B12, folate, etc. Your GP can order these tests but I appreciate that some GPs are more willing than others.
Nobody actually WANTS to be on medication, but supplements are not an equivalent to medication. Mostly supplements provide nutrients and are regulated as foods and not drugs. High concentrations of plant extracts MAY have a physiological effect at certain doses but most supplements are not extensively tested, and an experiment on 6 lab rats in 1984 or in a Petri dish isn’t going to tell us much about what the effects are on humans with a diagnosed medical condition. Supplements are regulated as foods and not medicines, there is a considerable margin of error permitted by law when it comes to the dosage stated on the packaging. We don’t know exactly how much of the active ingredient the product contains. This is something to bear in mind when buying online.
Before reaching for supplements, it’s a good idea to make sure you’re eating a diet as diverse as possible to ensure a wide range of nutrients and fibre sources as possible. There isn’t one true and correct way of eating but think of what you can add in to make your daily diet as varied and diverse as possible. You cannot out-supplement a bad diet. The human body doesn’t work that way. Food isn’t medicine, though. It’s just one aspect of healthy living. Supplements have their place, you just need to know your “why”. It’s always a good idea to check with your doctor or pharmacist because they can interact with cardiac medications. For example, you will definitely need to check whether it’s safe to take a vitamin D supplement if you are on calcium channel blockers.
i can understand your feelings about prefering to avoid pharmaceutical products, but apart from the issues already covered in other people's comments you may want to consider this:no one can force you to take the medication prescribed unless they "section" you - so it's your choice in the end
but if you choose the path of "natural" remedies and supplements is there a support structure which will help to deal with the consequences if these do not help your current condition or if they cause additional problems?
in a roundabout way i am asking if it is fair to go to someone for help, then reject the support offered in favour of something else, then expect to go back to the initial helper if/when it doesn't work out? by all means take responsibility for your health, but think about the full implications too
this is a great comment . In Canada , many cardiologists will discharge you as a patient if you do not follow their prescribed treatment plan. This may seem unfair, but we must trust that they are trained to keep us alive, and that may involve the use of medications .
To be honest , it's something that can happen in the UK too.If you refuse their medication or advice they can become very reluctant to treat you or discharge you because you won't follow advice.
This might seem unfair to someone and people get upset that they are taking their right to choose away , but part of the reason doctors begin to make refusals is because they can see you aren't following advice or you are doing something that isn't safe.
They often do it for you not just to protect themselves as they hope the threat of withdrawing professional treatment might make the patient rethink taking a potentially harmful course of action which has no real evidence to back it up.
And They don't want to be the named practitioner or thought of as being responsible for letting you follow a course of potentially harmful behaviour that lands you in an Emergency Room as that opens them up to the possibility of professional complaints from colleagues or complaints of negligence. Even though they weren't responsible for giving you the natural treatments you chose , and probably advised against them, it's still them that gets pulled up in front of review panels or legal proceedings and potentially gets suspended, not the patient whom made their own choices.
I have been taking all the usual mixture of prescribed medication for my heart which include some of what you are taking but in addition I was taking glucosamine, vitamin D , Sterols, vitamin K and non marine collagen but a few weeks ago I was admitted to hospital as I had a blocked and narrowed arteries and had two stents inserted but after the procedure the doctors said i shouldn’t take any vitamins as the interfere with the medication however the hospital pharmacist visited me whilst in the hospital and went through my medication asked if i was taking any vitamin supplements which I described and was told I could continue taking them except the vitamin K which acts against the clopidogrel and aspirin , when I explained what the doctor said i was told that all the vitamins except vitamin k would. be fine as it’s her job to check everything before being discharged from hospital. I have since discussed with my GP and local pharmacists and they agree with the hospital pharmacist therefore my advice would be to have a chat with your pharmacist and GP and see what they say
The problem I have with medication is that GP's put you on meds but if you make changes to lifestyle they are very loathed to take you off meds. I have come off amlodopine as I do not have high BP anymore through diet and excercise the same with diabetis meds. For the BP meds I provided results for two months before they agreed to stop the meds. My cardiologist wouldn't stop the BP meds as the GP prescribed them.
The argument you will get is duty of care and basically there hands are tied if they put you on meds.
I take supplements which are Niacin, Diabetone and Physilum Fibre which my surgeon approved after my cabg.
The health improvements for many people often come with weight loss. This is particularly the case for blood sugar control but also other parameters. It’s an unfortunate reality that many people regain their lost weight and lose the health benefits that they achieved as soon as their weight goes up. I have no idea whether this even applies in your case, but it can explain why some GPs are more cautious when it comes to de-prescribing some medications too quickly. Those gains have to be sustained over time. It might be tempting to put improvements down to taking a supplement, but other lifestyle changes such as diet and exercise may be where the large gains are made.
Having under gone heart surgery,9 I definitely don't want to go through that again. I am physically very active and avoid refined sugars at all costs. My weight is exactly the same as my pre-op. On Saurday I completed a 100kms bike ride.
I recently went through the NHS health screen that show a triglycerides in a non fasting state of 0.8.
Once you realise that food is your body's best medicine and on my 12 month anniversary I will only be on a statin.
The only reason that I agree to Statins with my Cardiologist is that it hardens any soft plaque that's formed.
You’re doing very well. I think you yourself deserve the credit. A supplement is to supplement. The clue’s in the name. I think people can run into problems when they believe that a supplement can do the work for them. I’m not against the judicious use of supplements but I think some patients want them to be the magic bullet.
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