Curcumin - Info About Different Forms... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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Curcumin - Info About Different Forms - If You Choose To Take It

jazj profile image

For anyone curious about which form of Curcumin to take, this is an excellent guide.

aor.ca/wp-content/uploads/A...

Due to who put this out, it may have bias towards CGM but as far as I can tell the science is sound. This Pubmed article seems to back up the science.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/270...

Prior to CGM, my belief was that Theracumin was most superior based on things I read here:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Addendum: I'm not posting this advocating PCa patients should take Curcumin. The evidence as to its potential benefit is controversial including possibly masking PSA. You need to weigh all the information and make your own personal decision. This is just additional info for those that have personally decided to take it.

67 Replies

The science is very unsound:

prostatecancer.news/2019/04...

Your misunderstanding of science (what I call pseudoscience) is very common in our "post-fact" age. I hope you will continue to research on what constitutes medical science.

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Tall_Allen

Thanks for pointing that out. I was aware there's evidence out there Curcumin may have the potential to mask PSA levels. I personally consider Curcumin's to be a controversial subject regarding PCa. But it's good you pointed it out (so many things to remember.) I've not taken it myself for PCa but have taken it on occasion as an anti-inflammatory as needed instead of NSAIDs. I see your article also mentions statins can mask PSA. I think with a lot of supplements it's very hard to determine conclusively if something is simply "masking" PSA versus having anti-proliferative effects on PCa. It's a fascinating substance to say the least. Many aren't even aware of PSA-negative cancer potential even in the absence of a substance that is masking it.

Maybe the potential PSA masking could be avoided employing a "washout" period prior to blood tests (I've seen 2 weeks mentioned for supplements in many cases.)

For people looking for information on Curcumin, I'll add these couple of links, but again, purpose of this thread isn't to discuss effectiveness. Those who followed or were a patient of Dr. Snuffy Myers I believe were encouraged to take Curcumin. youtube.com/watch?v=EwuoPDa... Whether he changed his opinion since I have no idea. (I am not one that took everything he said as gospel.) I personally have no strong opinion on Curcumin one way or another.

Postive: scielo.br/j/bjps/a/cRhzQCnF...

Negative: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/306...

People can make up their own minds based on a combination of information, including that which you have provided. If anyone wants to add to the discussion focused around forms to take for those who choose to take it, feel free to chime in.

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply to jazj

I don't think "people can make their own minds up" on the evidence, because you and most patients lack the knowledge on how to evaluate evidence. Levels of evidence and the need to have clinical trials requires dedicated understanding. There are specialists in these fields, just as there are specialists in medical oncology, radiology, etc. It can be learned by patients, but humility is the starting point for all knowledge acquisition.

Youtube videos, like this one, are not evidence:

youtube.com/watch?v=a6r2BsY...

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Tall_Allen

Everone has to make up their minds (aka make a decison) - I didn't say they could make the right one without consulting an experienced Oncologist.

I've often thought, why isn't the initial reply in 90% of these threads:

"Why are you asking about this here? Don't you have a competent Oncologist you trust? If not, go get one, or two."

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to jazj

Some people are going to feel that we are incapable of doing anything ourselves.

My MO listens to me and his other patients. He won't tell you to take curcumin or sulforaphane or EGCG or Metformin or whatever but will discuss the possible efficacy of each one. Refreshing to say the least. Many doctors and wannabees will not even discuss things.

maley2711 profile image
maley2711 in reply to jazj

AGREE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to jazj

I wash out curcumin, EGCG, statins, and finasteride for a week prior to a PSA test. That's on the off-chance that they mask PSA to a large extent. It would seem like it would be rather simple to test that theory but I haven't seen any good RCTs that have done that. So I view the evidence that I have seen as very sketchy.

All that I can say is that my PSA is 0.10-0.15 and was 0.17 last July. At that time I wasn't doing washouts. Now I do and my PSA is lower. Doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Personally, I think that my BAT program is working for me. And maybe if I didn't do any washouts I would be looking at an even lower PSA (if that is true the BAT program is working even better than I think!).

Until there is real proof, I will go off of anything that "might" mask PSA. The elimination half-lives of active metabolites of each substance tell me that a week should be sufficient.

Curcumin has a fairly large body of evidence for use as an anti-inflammatory. Neither here nor there but it's 15th on my supplement/diet/exercise rankings.

in reply to jazj

Poor Dr Fauci….. Covid twice in two weeks! 🤔

GeorgeGlass profile image
GeorgeGlass in reply to

He’s a lying moron. He’s been wrong any everything. Just like most MOs, fauci never told anyone what to do during the viral phase of covid. This is part of why since many people died. The main cause of death from covid was obesity and weak immune systems due to eating junk food all day long for decades. That’s why many countries had much lower death rates where the obesity rates are low, and people are active and outdoors more. It also explains why states with lockdowns had more cases than those without.

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to GeorgeGlass

This is off topic of this thread but this is an area that I have strong feelings about so I can't resist commenting...

If you are going to make a bold statement that states that had more days of lockdowns had a higher percentage of cases (obviously a state like California which has 10 million more people than Texas is prone to having more TOTAL cases), you better provide some links to some RELIABLE data backing that up - not something off some conservative cult conspiracy theory blog. Even if there is good data from a reliable source, by the time it goes through a few cycles of being passed from outlet to outlet it has been dumbed down and twisted so much it no longer resembles the complete picture of the original data.

For example, for all I know, there could be a credible study backing up there was a higher percentage of cases in states that did more lockdowns but the report might also say this was attributed to states with a lot more population density (large cities) had more cases due to the closer proximity of more people and thereby were forced to implement lockdowns to control the spread. Where states like Montana where everyone is much more spread out have much less dense population centers and therefore naturally had less cases and less need to implement lockdowns to control the spread. But the blog reports might twist things to only include the first part and leave out the last part and then you have what we call misinformation insinuating lockdowns have no beneficial effect on controlling disease spread. (Better tell that to China.)

I have a friend that actually thinks more people world wide died from the vaccine than from COVID. You can show him the statistics from any large hospital showing 90% of the people that died were not vaccinated and 10% were, for example, and he essentially believes these hospitals are lying as they are in cahoots with big pharma. Seriously? It's funny, when you think about it, many of these conpiratorial thinking based beliefs essentially boil down to anyone can claim anything is true and then put the burden on everyone else to prove it's false. Essentially "guilty until proven innocent" instead of "innocent until proven guilty". I could say there's an explorer from another world that is watching us but we can't see them. So lets just assume it's true as no one can prove it not to be true! I can say someone's son raped and killed women. Well it must be true because you can't prove there's not a dead body buried somewhere! This type of stuff in today's world drives me NUTS.

Teufelshunde profile image
Teufelshunde in reply to jazj

Yes, it is much better to quote the Liberal cult conspiracy theorists also known as the main stream media, for the "real" data. What a joke. As the real data is not coming out, we know the truth was suppressed.

Exactly, it never ceases to amaze me when people believe China supporting outlets like cnn and other far left mainstream outlets who support unabashed communist supporters like Bernie sanders and AOC, who are the primary cabinet advisors to the current idiot in chief. They get upset when they hear the truth, because they can’t handle the truth.

GeorgeGlass profile image
GeorgeGlass in reply to jazj

That days is readily available. Is not a bold statement. It’s well known by those who were reading sources on both sides of the aisle. Do some searching and you’ll find it. It’s clear by this moment in time that almost every edit/mandate or whatever unconstitutional state demands made by the cdc, that were made against American citizens, turned out to be wrong. The save can be said for the WHO. I could give you the evidence if you are not familiar or aware of that evidence but i don’t have the time to do that today. Do some searching and you’ll find it. Just don’t go to cnn, msnbc, npr, abc or other left wing corporate mules to find the truth. I’l you’ll never get the truth from those outlets.

I was trying the Solgar version (Novasol license?).If I took more than one soft gel in a day, I was getting gastro intestinal discomfort, raising the anxiety level if you are a PCa patient. lol

Pain/discomfort seemed to show up most at the large bowel turns?

Anyhow, I just came across an article mentioning that this formulation is associated with more side effects than others.

I am currently going to try Theracumin, I think its called.

These are the curcumins that are modified for good water uptake.

That’s interesting. What’s your thoughts on the absorbability of Curcumin? Any tips to maximize that?

tad4 profile image
tad4 in reply to MrG68

This is what I do. I buy bulk Tumeric and mix my own recipe with Ground Black Pepper and Moringa powder. The ratio is 20:1; 20 parts Tumeric, one part each of black pepper and moringa powder. Is it beneficial? I believe it is because it helps me and it has major anti-inflammatory benefits. Sometimes posts on this site become too scientific for the PCa sufferer to get his head around, sometimes you have to try anything that you hope will benefit you. And, stay positive. I'm 74 with Gleason scale 9, have been on ADT (Zolodex), had Brachytherapy and EBRT. PSA currently now .008. Due for another PSA and Bone scan in August; fingers crossed. For your information, I also take Rosuvastatin and Doubluts which is 500mg of Dutasteride and 400mg of Tamsulosin (to assist me to pee). Dutasteride is beneficial in treating PCa. Hopefully, I'm one of the lucky ones that can beat this beast, touch wood, lol. Cheers, for what it's worth.

I believe you can!!! Stay the course.

Great, I’ll give coconut oil a go. Thanks a lot. 👍

What do you think about transdermal preparations? And do you know if you could get a rough idea of absorption by examining AUC using a glucometer (one of curcumin's actions is supposed to be a reduction of blood sugar - I don't know if that is short-term or cumulative).

Currumpaw profile image
Currumpaw in reply to smurtaw

I may be the only one here that has seen or knows about a transdermal curcumin supp.

In early 2013 I bought a nearly new Hammer Strength, Iso Lateral Leg Curl from the Poliquin Group. Charles Poliquin was a Canadian and preferred a Canadian brand of equipment. As a bonus I was given a tube of curcumin ointment to be applied topically for transdermal absorption. Charles Poliquin has passed. His family had a history of heart disease. The transdermal curcumin isn't on the Poliquin Group site. That was the only time I have ever heard of topical absorption of curcumin before you mentioned it. Absorption with digestion is difficult but it has been found that back adding some of the tumerone oils to the curcumin after the curcumin has been extracted greatly increases the absorption. The supp that the Poliquin Group sells and a LifeExtension supp also back add some tumerone oils for that purpose. LE's site has some research done on the absorbability of their supp that back adds some of the tumerone oils--if you like to read. The LE supp adds some ginger as well as ginger is closely related to turmeric and works synergistically enhancing and magnifying the anti-inflammatory effect.

I logged onto the Poliquin Group's site but I didn't see the topical Curcumin supp. The Poliquin Group trains professional athletes in all sports and amateurs --if one can call the Olympic athletes amateurs any longer. The trainers at the Poliquin Group are at the top tier of their profession.

Interestingly no one has thought of combining a high quality curcumin supp with black seed oil another anti-inflammatory.

Currumpaw

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Currumpaw

Great info! I use LE curcumin. Yeah, too bad about CP. I never met him but have some of his books.

in reply to Currumpaw

Totally agree… I have an interesting story, I had what they call trigger thumbs, do t laugh, it is painful when your thumb locks into the wrong position. I saw a product that looked great, expensive but bought it for joint pain, not thinking of my thumbs. A combination of rosemary turmeric ginger and green tea, Guess what… first my right one went away then the left. Thumbs work great. I now juice ginger root in with my combo juicer, as much spicyness as I can take. Love it and no joint pain. Back is better no more sciatic. Cutting back on gluten is key as well. The better I felt, the more I did, Gluten free was the last thing I tried.

I only got through your first article and then went down the rabbit hole for the last hour. I'll continue digging into it tomorrow. This is what I have so far

Here are some other articles about absorption:

nutritionj.biomedcentral.co...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a...

turmericlife.com.au/pages/t...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a...

Curcumin has a molecular weight of 368 g/mol so it should be possible to make a transdermal formula. I wonder if this would bypass some of the issues?

Oh, just googled and looks like that is being explored

Improved Dermal and Transdermal Delivery of Curcumin with SmartFilms and Nanocrystals - PMC (nih.gov)

I think it might be possible to use a glucometer to compare blood glucose levels in conjunction with various preparations:

Curcumin alleviates postprandial glycaemic response in healthy subjects: A cross-over, randomized controlled study - PMC (nih.gov)

Perhaps try dissolving nano-formulations in DMSO? Curcumin Protects Skin against UVB-Induced Cytotoxicity via the Keap1-Nrf2 Pathway: The Use of a Microemulsion Delivery System - PMC (nih.gov)

On the subject of possible interference, if you are concerned with it:Elimination half-lives:

• Curcumin 6-7 hours ("possible" interference with PSA tests)

• Curcuminoids 24 hours ("possible" interference with PSA tests)

• EGCG: 3-4 hours

• Lovastatin: 13 hours

Takes 5 EHLs to get below 4%. I think a week is a sufficient wash-out period.

Currumpaw profile image
Currumpaw in reply to smurtaw

While you are "washing out" do you think that some cancer cells might see an opportunity to establish a colony?

If you are consistent with your supps the effect, if any that your supps have on your PSA will be more consistent than a test that has been acknowledged to give inconsistent results.

Remember that not long ago, doctors at the behest of the insurance companies, at least my doctor at that time, advised me that the PSA test was so prone to error that if one had a stable history then we should "skip" the yearly PSA test and have it every other year.

Has anyone ever had a PSA test where the results were shockingly high and in four days have another PSA test at the same lab and the results came back with the number you expected? I have and my onco, bless him, ordered another.

My oncologist who is the head of the genitourinary department at the hospital and has had thousands of patients said to me that the inconsistency of the PSA test is why he doesn't have that much faith in it. A good tool, but it has it's limitations.

Currumpaw

Just what i was thinking

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Currumpaw

I was thinking of this also. May be better to be consistent with what supplements are circulating during each test and if something happens to be effective, whether is Sulforaphane, Curcumin, Modified Citrus Pectin, etc, better to not open a window for the cancer to become more 'awake'. This is assuming of course that the masking is not to such a great effect that it could delay PSA as an indicator to take action to the point of a worse long-term outcome. I mean where do you draw the line? What other things do we not even know about that can affect PSA? Don't eat this or that before your PSA test as it could affect the result?

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to jazj

Based on the "evidence" :) I think that I should fast for at least a month before every PSA test. Air only. Hmmm, air quality isn't great here so maybe I should stop breathing too?

Good news is that my cancer will die.

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Currumpaw

I don't know if it will decrease cancer-fighting effectiveness. But then again maybe an off-period will thwart resistance.

But maybe I’ll stay on statins. The evidence for interference from statins is very weak. Curcumin has more biological plausibility and that explanation might help explain some of the results we have seen. Still, it seems like out of many possible explanations, the one that is chosen is BAD CURCUMIN, BAD BAD BAD!

Good to know about your PSA experience and that of your MO. Where were you 4 weeks ago? I had a PSA test two months ago and it was 0.1. A month later it was 0.49. I started a therapy that I expected to keep it the same or cause an increase but it went to 0.15.

Scott

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to smurtaw

I have high cholesterol even with good diet and exercise so the statins are a no brainer for me and I have no side effects.

I'm all for 'mixing up' the supp regimen a bit to not give the cancer a consistent foe to fight. I take my supplements twice a day (at lunch and dinner - I don't eat breakfast). If at some point I started taking something like Modified Citrus Pectin I'd probably add a morning supplement period for it, although I think I read somewhere 2X4.8g could be as effective as 3X4.8 - it's just that the studies were done with 3X4.8 (the most prominent was sponsored by the manufacturer of Petcasol - gee do you think they want you to go through your supply quicker or slower? And hmm, how was 3X4.8 determined, oh ya, most people eat 3 times a day so lets do 3 doses a day as that sounds plausible, I would guess they have a more scientific explanation of the dosage determination -- but I'm getting off track.)

In general for now, my strategy is to take different supps at different times a day as opposed to the same supps multiple times a day. There is the possibility of "too much of a good thing." Considering diet and exercise are paramount, I don't feel inclined to go with multiple doses of multiple supplements as long as my diet is healthy and I exercise a lot. The supps are sort of the "cherry on top" and I feel I need only one cherry.

Currumpaw profile image
Currumpaw in reply to smurtaw

My onco has extended the three month "visits" to him and the lab to six months now. I will see how that works out. Six years ago he didn't think it would be too long before another treatment of some sort would be necessary. About two years ago he told me not to change anything when I asked about dropping something.

That is about as much as I divulge of my personal info.

Currumpaw

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Currumpaw

Excellent!

My story is similar. I was diagnosed with G9 spread cancer (not metastatic per standards). The MOs told me I had a limited amount of time without massive treatments.

I did estrogen ADT, SPT, and BAT (all non-SOC) and a while back my MO told me that the only reason to visit was to talk shop.

Do you have any views on using it as a suppository?

Jaz everything is appreciated. … thank you!

Nalakrats, do you like the Life Extension Super Bio-Curcumin?

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Captain_Dave

Same one I have. I selected it after reading everything I could about the different methods of increasing bioavailability. It's the CGM form. One of the benefits of the CGM form is that is 'sticks' to your intestines so it gets absorbed over a longer period of time compared to the other forms as I understand it. I believe the technology used in the Theracumin form is a potential close second place in my opinion.

healthiersteps.com/recipe/k...

Kohlrabi curry recipe

just made it the other day but did not use the cumin powder

served with basmati rice

Coconut oil better then olive oil…. Interesting Nal… thank you!

Nal?
Currumpaw profile image
Currumpaw in reply to

The black seed oil is my thought too. It seems we think alike.

I also would like Nalakrat's opinion.

Currumpaw

I have black seeds and the oil tablets. I take them around the same time as the ground turmeric on my sautéed veggies.

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Currumpaw

Which brand of black seed oil would you recommend?

Currumpaw profile image
Currumpaw in reply to smurtaw

Mother Nature Organic from the big "A".

Cold pressed, not extracted using heptane as some are and in a dark, glass, bottle.

Refrigerate after opening. After taking each serving, shake the bottle up to prevent any settling. I shake the bottle before storing it so that the inside of the bottle cap drains down before I remove it for the next use.

Currumpaw

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Currumpaw

Thanks. Bought some.

I take organic ginger with the curcumin. I add an organic liquid, ginger extract to Medicinal Traditionals' green tea with ginger and some ginger powder too. I found that to be pain reliving with a little ibuprofen for the SI ligament damage resulting from the Cipro and Levaquin combination a uro used several times.

Those of us who study nutrition know that the bulk of the vitamin and anti-inflammatory substances are found in the skin and the seeds which are the power house of a plant as a seed or nut can grow a new plant. I haven't done this for some time but a spoonful of fresh, unpeeled, grated, ginger, is a natural type of food I have used in the past.

Thinking about that and the absorbability of curcumin, why not grate a little turmeric root with the skin on it at the same time? I would expect that the supplements include the skin or the turmeric root during processing.

Currumpaw

in reply to Currumpaw

You can juice it with carrots celery and pineapple. Delicious if you like sweet and spicy. Sooooo good!

THANK YOU!Me, bad. If I had read all the posts here, I would have seen your endorsement of LE.

Note to self: read more next time!

I read the comments from you and Patrick and xurrumpaw and a few others. Currumpaw and i come from a strong group of people who were poisoned by floroquinolones. This, we were forced to figure out how to recover. Anti-inflammatory ingredients from Gods nature, does amazing things in healing the body. I continue to find supporting evidence from scientific journals, on a weekly basis. Great comments. Thanks as always to you guys for sharing.

in reply to GeorgeGlass

Yes, great thread of comments!!!❤️👏

It does render a PSA assay invalid. It also shows no change in clinical progression.

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to ck722

The question in my mind is, on average, how significant is the effect on PSA? Has anyone done a placebo controlled study to determine that figure? I mean does it take a PSA reading that would have been 1.0 down to 0.1 or 0.9?

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to jazj

Good question. I'm guessing that it takes a PSA of 1.0 and takes it to 0.999 repeated.

jazj profile image
jazj in reply to smurtaw

LMAO

Justfor_ profile image
Justfor_ in reply to jazj

You will have the first leg results of my N=1 experiment next week when I will have my monthly PSA test.

For the latest 4 monthly tests, using two labs in alternation, it has been stable to 0.05 while taking Curcumin. Since 5 weeks ago I have stopped taking Curcumin, all other things kept unaltered. Second leg to follow by re-starting Curcumin after this.

healthunlocked.com/prostate...

PSA vs Bicalutamide concentration
jazj profile image
jazj in reply to Justfor_

The elephant in the room though still is the clinically unanswered question: How much of the lowering of the PSA due to Curcumin is an 'artificial masking' with no effect on disease progression and how much of that lowering effect is related to actually slowing disease progression?

Seems the only way to find that out is if you had a cohort of patients that had disease that shows up on a scan, and then with all other factors being equal or factored into the statistical analysis, compare the scan results over time of the cohort on curcumin with the cohort on placebo.

Justfor_ profile image
Justfor_ in reply to jazj

The so called "masking" effect sounds like a red herring to me. If it lowers the PSA, for whatever reason, is good enough for me. At my current PSA level the rounding error is ~20%, so, at this stage only a >0.06 will be conclusive. If it stays at 0.05 then next month after re-starting taking Curcumin only a drop to 0.04 will be conclusive. If it stays at 0.05 then the final conclusion will be that either it doesn't affect PSA at all or less than 10% either way.

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Justfor_

The whole masking thing sounds similar to the claims by some supplement companies that tout their product as the only solution to eczema, hives, cancer, heart attacks, fat loss, libido, and diabetes,... A bunch of nonsense.

So WHAT if it lowers my PSA from 0.1 to 0.09? This gets swamped by test resolution and repeatability.

Good chart by the way.

Justfor_ profile image
Justfor_ in reply to smurtaw

We are thought of as total idiots unable to adjust a reported PSA value by applying a suitable correction factor.

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Justfor_

I don't know if he realizes how insulting he can be. Does he try to insult us intentionally or is it just the way he learned how to communicate? But, some people don't seem to mind it and the more abusive he gets, the more they seem to admire him.

Justfor_ profile image
Justfor_ in reply to Justfor_

Today, as promised, I updated my PSA time series.

Long story short, stable @ 0.05 regardless Curcumin.

ck722 profile image
ck722 in reply to ck722

Let's not treat the PSA but treat the cancer.

prostatecancer.news/2019/04...

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to ck722

This study found that using curcumin gave an extra 10% before the need to move on to a new therapy. Take this with a grain of salt because the p-value was high.

I've read various studies that come up with a lower difference but I've also seen a higher difference reported.

Right now I stick with Longvida:

swansonvitamins.com/p/now-f...

It has been proven to pass the blood-brain barrier. Scary perhaps, but proof of bioavailability.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/252...

13 PubMed hits: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?te...

-Patrick

If cancer wasn't beating me to death, I wouldn't be researching to death.I read Prof J's info over the years. I'm going through the OP info. Over the last 4 years I've read hundreds of articles about curcumin and talked to my MO and my NMD.

If cancer stops I promise to stop.

Life Extension Super Bio-Curcumin or Life Extension Advanced Curcumin Elite™ Turmeric Extract, Ginger & Turmerones?

I prefer the one from the empty package........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 07/01/2022 6:43 PM DST

Looks like it might be testable. I have various formulations. Baseline

5 g oil

5 g oil with various types of curcumin

Take the winner and test with some piperine

Blood glucose changes from curcumin

A small clinical trial show comparing curcumin with/without bioperine.

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...

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