If you are using PSA to monitor your ... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer
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If you are using PSA to monitor your cancer, you may want to avoid curcumin (and some other supplements)

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen

Curcumin is labeled as a Pan-Assay Interference Compound (PAINS) that interferes with the validity of PSA tests. Patients should be wary of taking it and other supplements including genistein (a soy isoflavone), EGCG (green tea), resveratrol (grapes), capsaicin (chili peppers), saw palmetto, pygeum, and beta-sitosterol that may artificially change PSA readings. Fortunately, it is cleared out pretty quickly, so avoiding it for a few days before your next PSA test should be sufficient.

pcnrv.blogspot.com/2019/04/...

135 Replies
oldestnewest

Wow, that's really interesting.

Thanks for the advice.

TA,

Avoiding it period or just a few days before test please? I thoughts all these compounds were very helpful in controlling the cancer somewhat, although they never seemed to stop my psa from rising

Thanks

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to Ahk1

There is no good clinical evidence that any are useful, although they probably won't harm you.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to Ahk1

I believe them to be helpful ...That’s why I take them .

So do you imagine that Curcumin ingestion could take a PSA reading from detectable to undetectable?

As a Dr. Myers patient with prescribed curcumin of a specific brand, I will take my chances. Thanks

Possibly. The point is that its exact effect is unknown, but it may reduce the PSA reading artificially.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to Tall_Allen

Adt is artificial . Curcumin is natural .

dentaltwin
dentaltwin
in reply to Whimpy-p

So is botulinum toxin, but I don't consider it a recommendation.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to dentaltwin

I’m not recommending anything? The toxin doesn’t equal curcumin .

Allen, in your blog I read: "The biggest problem with curcumin as a medication is its oral bioavailability, which is less than 1% ....." If it has such a small bioavailability, can it have an effect on the PSA value at all? Provided you take the common dose of one pill with 41 mg Curcumin per day?

I Essentially eat/drink most of these compounds in their whole form on a daily basis. I see this like trying to avoid choline. Avoiding any of these a few days before a lab test would essentially mean a fast for me. I appreciate the insight, but will take my chances.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to Sherpa111

Me too. But I will try the cut just to see .

Not enough for therapy, but enough to interfere with the PSA test if it is the same day that you took the pill. PSA tests, even conventional ones, detect very small concentrations of PSA in serum - even a small amount of an interference compound can invalidate it. That's what the Choi study (unintentionally) showed - it's masking effect disappeared after the men stopped taking it.

Interesting information but what else should we be avoiding before a PSA test. Dr. Myers always stated no sex 48 hours before the test.

Yes, sex and bike riding if one still has a prostate.

HiddenThis reply has been deleted
henukit
henukit
in reply to Hidden

And yet, some forgot. I just had sex in the 24 hrs window before the test, and had to rub it in to my MO (who may or may not be getting one very often)

At the test came out high, bad karma? :)

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to henukit

Haha , you’re one of the lucky ones . Love your attitude . Only my Dr Singh now at Mayo Scottsdale is in shape . The rest portly . 😂

I guess this study may provide some evidence one way or the other...double blind with placebo:

cancer.gov/about-cancer/tre...

Guess you would advise sticking to broccoli sprouts... Thanks for posting...

Fish

Thanks - unfortunately, that study uses a PSA-based endpoint (biochemical recurrence free survival).I'm even cautious about sulforaphane. The French study used a PSA endpoint and was small.

mtnwife
mtnwife
in reply to Tall_Allen

Seriously? You are cautious about eating broccoli??? With all due respect, if you were to take the drugs and have the procedures most on this forum have endured, you would know there are huge side effects to every pharmaceutical treatment you suggest. Broccoli, on the other hand, has been unequivocally proven to protect against cancer formation and it has NO side effects. As a matter of fact, a diet rich in fruits and vegetables almost always makes people feel better.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to mtnwife

Broccoli is my favorite vegetable. What I mean by the word "cautious" is that I have some reservations. I do not make incautious remarks like "unequivocally proven" when I know that is not the case. I certainly endorse sulforaphane, except in men undergoing radiation. If you have personal attacks to make, use private messaging.

mtnwife
mtnwife
in reply to Tall_Allen

Chill, Tall Allen, I am not attacking you. In good faith and discussion I'll sign off now. Good evening.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to mtnwife

Chop broccoli beforehand and use mustard powder or some kind of radish with it to release the benefits .

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to mtnwife

😂

I see that sulforaphane (Broccoli sprouts) is not included!

Maybe this one is the only supplement that we need besides vitamin D3 and C and of course Red wine!

Those 1-2 researchers cannot beat hundreds of researches that showed these supplements are beneficial not only for cancer patients but for general health.

I see that you are not against using them, but the suggestion is that we stop them for some days before the PSA test.

Thanks, TA :)

No clinical study (let alone hundreds) has ever proven a benefit. Red wine contains resveratrol, but probably not enough to interfere. No benefit to D3 or C, but in moderation, probably no harm either.

Ahk1
Ahk1
in reply to Tall_Allen

I judge ANYTHING by end results only. I have tried Pomi-t for more than 9 months which had broccoli, Greer tea and tumeric. They said there were a study to support it for controlling psa. It did NOTHING for me. I tired most supplements, I wanted it so bad to work for controlling rising psa. They all failed. Now, I lost faith in these because it’s simple, I need to see results and I got nothing. No one wanted these supplements to work more than me but they totally failed for me. What a shame I wished they worked. Now, I have no choice but to use pharmaceutical soon.

Just don't eat any food, have any red wine (reseveratrol), have sex, or think about sex for 3 days before any PSA test. That is, if you want to treat the PSA rather than manage your cancer and live your life.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to FCoffey

Why wouldn't you think about sex?

Kaliber
Kaliber
in reply to Tall_Allen

well ..... at least leave us have the memories anyway .... right ... right ..... ? y aha yaayhaayaah

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to Kaliber

😎

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to FCoffey

😮

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to FCoffey

👏

Also I read that in some cases the PSA level was low like 3 ng/mL but the PET scan showed advanced prostate cancer (in a newly diagnosed patient without using any supplements).

Hence PSA is NOT the only test that oncologests depends on, that is why they send us to MRI, PET scans etc...

Interferes with it to make it higher or lower, or possibly either?

Lower. In the Choi clinical trial, their PSA was lower during the 6 months that they were taking it, but there was no difference by the end of the study.

Dark side of curcumin.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to tango65

Thanks. He makes a good point that the safety of concentrated doses has not been proven.

pilot52
pilot52
in reply to Tall_Allen

Tall Allen I appreciate your diligence and effort you put forth on this site..I believe all of us look at PSA as a marker to our advance or decline of our disease . I think it is reasonable to try and prepare yourself to get the best PSA reading...does it totally reflect the current disease status? We feel It does ,however, mentally when we have that lower number our stress level goes down hence that benefits us overall in our fight...keep up the good work my friend...Blue Skies ,,,,,Sky King

Jbooml
Jbooml
in reply to Tall_Allen

Th is a perfect n=1 experiment...i'll quit my turmeric powder in my coffee this and for the next three days before blood test on wednesday and report back this thursday...fun stuff..btw current PSA undefectable....under .03

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to Jbooml

I stopped , getting tested Friday myself.. good luck on yours.😎

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to tango65

👎🏼

Also wondering if it is lower or higher, and if it is, is it a very small amount (noise) like raising or reducing your psa 1/10th or 1/100th of a percent or is it significant like 10%? If the change is small (i.e. less than 0.1), that isn't going to change a prognosis so don't worry about it. And the change is a lower psa than what it would be by abstaining from green tea, that is a GOOD thing. You wouldn't stop taking your Zytiga because it "artificially" lowers psa, and if psa is lowered by consuming curcumin, grapes, green tea, etc (all of which are known to have positive effects on preventing cancer and possibly slowing progression), then it seems rather foolish to stop them so your psa goes up to a "natural" level for the test. Taking the foods/supplements listed above could be having an effect on the cancer and is lowering psa because the foods/supplements are also actually working.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to mtnwife

I guess you didn't read the article. Zytiga does not artificially lower PSA. It reduces the ability of the cancer to grow. PSA is an important tool for monitoring prostate cancer progression. But it is just a chemical biomarker - it is not clinical progression itself. When it can no longer be used as a tool for that, we lose our ability to detect prostate cancer or its recurrence early enough for salvage to be effective, or when drugs are no longer working and it's time to switch. Masking PSA is a bad thing.

mtnwife
mtnwife
in reply to Tall_Allen

The study says, "Diets deficient in polyphenols and other natural plant-based phytochemicals found in herbs, spices, fruit, teas, colourful vegetables and other healthy plant-based foods, have been linked with higher risks of cancer particularly breast, pancreas, ovary, skin, prostate, bowel and oesophagus.

The protective benefits of polyphenols, however, do not to stop after a diagnosis of cancer. Breast cancer survivors taking higher levels of fruit and vegetables had a lower recurrence and those with a higher dietary intake of lignans, isoflavones, flavanones within soy-rich foods or green tea had a lower risk of breast cancer death. Individuals with skin cancer who had higher leafy, green vegetable intake had a lower rate of new cancer formation. Men adopting healthy diets after prostate cancer were shown to have slower PSA progression."

So no, I did not read your article about why NOT to take these foods when the clinical trial I read clearly says take them regularly, often, and without delay.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

mtnwife
mtnwife
in reply to mtnwife

One other thought.... the psa timing you refer to above when you say "our ability to detect prostate cancer or its recurrence early enough for salvage to be effective" does not apply to a virulent cancer (like neuroendocrine) which not produce psa. If a man is at the stage where he has neuroendocrine disease/low psa, he unfortunatey dos not have a variety of APC that is salvageable.

I think I'll go have a nice cup of green tea. Cheers.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to mtnwife

True- there are,thankfully rare, forms of prostate cancer where PSA cannot be used as a biomarker of progression. For most of us, it can be.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to mtnwife

I can see you don't want to be confused with the facts. But at the risk of confusing you further, there is only one ingredient in Pomi-T that has any proven efficacy against prostate cancer - broccoli extract. Pomegranate and Green Tea have been proven to be ineffective. It is also worth noting that the study you cite used PSA to evaluate effectiveness. If curcumin masks PSA, how is anything proven?

mtnwife
mtnwife
in reply to Tall_Allen

If you are referring to YOUR facts from YOUR blog, you are right. We will have to agree to disagree and I will have to live with my confusion. Sigh.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to mtnwife

🤙🏽

Thanks for posting this.

I agree with mtnwife, if it lowers PSA it is reducing the ability of the cancer to grow -- just like what happens when taking Avadart or testosterone lowering drugs.

Most of these supplements don't lower testosterone -- while lowering PSA and slowing the cancers ability to grow.

PSA is given off by active PCa -- when PSA is lowered -- then the activity of the cancer cells is being suppressed. Also, recent studies have concluded PSA is not only a bio marker -- it is used by the cancer cells to communicate with other PC cells and help them invade, migrate and progress.

Balsam01
Balsam01
in reply to George71

I was on Avodart for enlarged prostate for years. had I not been on it, I and my GP would have found the increased PSA level instead of me waiting for physical symptoms to develop which is what happened. I did not know (and I assume my GP did not know--we never talked about it) that Avodart masked PSA. And so here I am on this forum with Gleason 9.

Excellent point, Balsam01.

MrEd44
MrEd44
in reply to Balsam01

I am taking Avodart as well for many years (decades). Avodart is labled for the clinician to double PSA readings as Avodart halves it by suppressing DHT. Every Urologist I've ever had was aware of this and simply adjusted by doubling the PSA reading. I can't imagine a GP precribing this without knowing this, it is stated specifically on the insert. Seems negligent at the least.

Many dietary substances can somewhat effect biomarkers, but the general trendline remains evident.

I despise clinicians whom reply "OMG, YOU ARE MASKING YOUR CONDITION!!!", when something you did works when their drug failed. You can bet, had their prescribed drug lowered the marker, they would be braging how effective it was... (at "masking" the biomarker or treating the condition??) A more appropriate term in my mind would be "effects" rather than "masking" which implies hides.

dentaltwin
dentaltwin
in reply to MrEd44

While it may reduce PSA readings, changes over time while on Avodart can still be used:

source.wustl.edu/2010/12/ps...

George71
George71
in reply to Balsam01

That is the difference in doctors, they are all over the map -- Snuffy Meyers prescribed Avodart to virtually every patient.

One in a million get cured from stage 4 PCa -- many life 2 decades or more with it. The goal is to slow it down until something better comes along --

There is plenty of evidence that Avodart slows progression and in some cases cures low grade PCa cancer.

Avodart lowered my PSA 30% when I first started taking it 19 months ago --- Avodart dropped my PSA in 2 weeks down from 0.6 to 0.4 --- but IF it didn't help at all -- my PSA would have progressed at the same doubling rate as before I started taking it (doubling every 5 months). So if it didn't do anything but mask PSA -- in less than 5 months my PSA would have been back up to 0.8 anyway (instead of 1.2) and doubling every 5 months since then -- just like before. -- ie. 5 months later on Avodart it would ahve been 1.6 instead of 2.4 -- 5 months later 3.2 instead of 4.8 --- and 5 months later 6.4 instead of 9.6 -- --even now, there is only a 5 month lag time to what my actual (non Avodart) PSA would be. And by now (19 months later) if Avodart only masked PSA my PSA would be 12.8 instead of 19.2 and 25.6 in 5 more months anyway.

But instead -- my PSA stopped doubling every 5 months to currently a doubling rate of 22 months. 19 months since starting Avodart at 0.6 my PSA is 0.5 ( up from 0.4 -- 19 months ago).

Gleason 8 ---- 4 of 10 lymph nodes positive --- surgery in 4/ 16 -- no other treatment.

I'm taking nothing but one Avodart 5 days a week and supplements - curcumin, grape seed, D3, K2, boron, lycopene, beta glucan etc.

George71
George71
in reply to George71

here is the link to Snuffy Meyers video on Avodart slowing PCa progression

George71
George71
in reply to George71

"The evolving role of diet in prostate cancer risk and progression."

March 26, 2019:

"This overview examines the rationale for dietary interventions for prostate cancer by summarizing the current evidence base and biological mechanisms for the involvement of diet in disease incidence and progression.

Recent data have further solidified the association between insulin resistance and prostate cancer with the homeostatic model assessment of insulin resistance. Data also show that periprostatic adipocytes promote extracapsular extension of prostate cancer through chemokines, thereby providing a mechanistic explanation for the association observed between obesity and high-grade cancer. Regarding therapeutics, hyperinsulinemia may be the cause of resistance to phosphatidylinositol-3 kinase inhibitors in the treatment of prostate cancer, leading to new investigations combining these drugs with ketogenic diets.

Given the recently available data regarding insulin resistance and adipokine influence on prostate cancer, dietary strategies targeting metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and obesity should be further explored. In macronutrient-focused therapies, low carbohydrate/ketogenic diets should be favored in such interventions because of their superior impact on weight loss and metabolic parameters and encouraging clinical data. Micronutrients, including the carotenoid lycopene which is found in highest concentrations in tomatoes, may also play a role in prostate cancer prevention and prognosis through complementary metabolic mechanisms. The interplay between genetics, diet, and prostate cancer is an area of emerging focus that might help optimize therapeutic dietary response in the future through personalization."

Current opinion in oncology. 2019 Mar 15 [Epub ahead of print]

urotoday.com/recent-abstrac...

This is a great point (and also an important post by TA) and the topic brings needed dialogue. It seems to me that the Choi Study indicates that 1. curcumin may affect the PSA test result OR 2. the curcumin may have a suppressive effect on cancer cell "activity" or progression in a manner not picked up by the study. So both G71 and TA could be correct in their conclusions. Since the study (unless I missed it) included a variety of PC Gleason scores (levels of PC aggressiveness), I think that the study has less value. But some information is better than none.

I agree with TA's comment in the past that anyone taking supplements should have radiological evidence that any given supplement or combination of the same has had a beneficial impact on progression. (Unfortunately, we who utilize supplements/metabolic approach/etc. have no idea what is really responsible for any positive result.)

Another comment: All of the patients in this study were on intermittent ADT. I'm more interested in knowledge of curcumin "masking" of PSA levels for patients that have never been on ADT. I hope to personally weigh in on this soon.

By the end of the iADT vacation, there was no significant difference in the amount of time they were able to stay on vacation (the curcumin group progressed slightly more quickly). In other words, while PSA was lower for the first 6 months while they took it, it more than caught up after they stopped taking it. Thus circumin had no lasting effect on progression. The two clinical trials mentioned in the article will look at long-term effects, if any. In the AS trial, they will biopsy to detect progression.

Ok, thanks for the clarification, yes good info to help us be more aware when approaching PSA test time. By the way, I for one enjoyed the video.

You and Mtnwife fail to understand the difference between a biomarker of progression and actual progression. Curcumin interferes with the test for PSA. Masking your best biomarker is a mistake.

I don't mean to speak for George71 but I think you are missing our point--one test doesn't matter and you shouldn't live by numbers. You should do everything possible to slow disease progression and taking the foods and supplements that you suggest people avoid have clinically proven to do just that.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to mtnwife

How do you know if you are slowing disease progression? None of them have been clinically proven. "Clinically" means in humans. "Proven" means a randomized clinical trial.

mtnwife
mtnwife
in reply to Tall_Allen

Thank you for your definitions, but I've been living with my husband's disease progression for a long time and am well versed in the definitions, treatments, and practical experience of APC 2019. Here are references in the brief five minutes I spent looking, because it's not too tough to find "clinically" human "proven" randomized trials if you bother to actually look for them:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/168...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/116...

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to mtnwife

Apparently you do not know what "randomized" means - it means some people get the treatment and some do not.

mtnwife
mtnwife
in reply to Tall_Allen

Apparently. My references were solely based on quickly finding trials, not ones that fit every one of your specifications. I well remember the post that escalated into ridiculousness about eating vegetables and I have zero interest in going down that rabbit hole again. Good evening to you.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to mtnwife

Then why respond at all, and cast aspersions on my empathy and sincerity?

Tall Allen, I understood what you were communicating. It’s good advice, for those many of us who are taking supplements to lay off the supplements (particularly curcumin) in the days leading to a PSA test. Thanks for posting this tip

Mike

👍

I am thinking that a one or two day fast before PSA testing might be a good idea.

Not sure, since fasting could raise PSA: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

wstein25
wstein25
in reply to Tall_Allen

Didn't Dean Ornish do the definitive research years ago? 100 or so, 2 groups of 50, all in the experimental group improved (lower PSA after 1 year), and in the control group all had increased PSA, some had to drop out for conventional treatment. The difference: Experimental group - whole food plant based diet, low fat, exercise (1 hr moderate, 5 or 6 days a week), stress reduction thru meditation 1 hr per day. Control group - follow whatever your Dr. instructs.

mtnwife: I do not know the researchers on this study. However, I do know the weasel word of “may” and I do know about the Lead Investigator and Author of this study. “Gordon Saxe, MD, is a board-certified family medicine doctor. He provides care for patients of all ages, including preventive care and treatment of acute and chronic diseases.” He is also the “Director of Research, a preventive and integrative medicine physician, a founding member of the UCSD Center for Integrative Medicine, and co-developer of the UCSD Natural Healing & Cooking Program.” He studies all cancer and complementary and alternative medicine.

If your husband’s decision is to seek medical help from a complementary and alternative preventative medicine professional, then this study “may” be for him. However, I prefer a Medical Oncologist who has researched genitourologic cancer for 30 years in a clinical and academia setting.

Gourd Dancer

Hi Gourd Dancer, we actually believe in both: my husband sees a well-published, respected prostate specialist, and I make sure he eats plenty of vegetables, fruits, turmeric, green tea, etc. Although he has had most PC treatments (surgery, radiation, orchiectomy, casodex, zytiga, xtandi and we will see what else now that his psa is progressing on Xtandi), he feels good and has a decent quality of life which I attribute to the nutrition he gets from food and supplements to keep his body fighting as best it can.

George71
George71
in reply to mtnwife

well said mtnwife

George71
George71
in reply to mtnwife

Did you see the earlier post:

"The evolving role of diet in prostate cancer risk and progression."

March 26, 2019:

"This overview examines the rationale for dietary interventions for prostate cancer by summarizing the current evidence base and biological mechanisms for the involvement of diet in disease incidence and progression.

Recent data have further solidified the association between insulin resistance and prostate cancer with the homeostatic model assessment of insulin resistance. Data also show that periprostatic adipocytes promote extracapsular extension of prostate cancer through chemokines, thereby providing a mechanistic explanation for the association observed between obesity and high-grade cancer. Regarding therapeutics, hyperinsulinemia may be the cause of resistance to phosphatidylinositol-3 kinase inhibitors in the treatment of prostate cancer, leading to new investigations combining these drugs with ketogenic diets.

Given the recently available data regarding insulin resistance and adipokine influence on prostate cancer, dietary strategies targeting metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and obesity should be further explored. In macronutrient-focused therapies, low carbohydrate/ketogenic diets should be favored in such interventions because of their superior impact on weight loss and metabolic parameters and encouraging clinical data. Micronutrients, including the carotenoid lycopene which is found in highest concentrations in tomatoes, may also play a role in prostate cancer prevention and prognosis through complementary metabolic mechanisms. The interplay between genetics, diet, and prostate cancer is an area of emerging focus that might help optimize therapeutic dietary response in the future through personalization."

Current opinion in oncology. 2019 Mar 15 [Epub ahead of print]

urotoday.com/recent-abstrac...

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to mtnwife

I believe in both also ..

Well said, gourd_dancer.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to mtnwife

👍

Thank you for your persistence.. do not be dissuaded from your mission !

TA- I think there is a little confusion here. The article only said that all those supplements might artificially lower the PSA reading, but that could be corrected by dropping the supplements 3 days prior to labs. It wasn't poo pooing supplements at all or in general. Two different issues generated from these responses.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to arete1105

Might.

I take Curcumin, green tea, chili not the others . I will stop a few days before my next test . Thanks , I hadn’t heard this before.

HiddenThis reply has been deleted
Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to Hidden

Give me a break please? Maybe I misunderstood ? I am

Ignorant on the tech of APC .. I don’t really get what your point is to me ?

I’m a newbie, however he’s stating for a few days so u get a PSA that’s accurate of disease progression . Not at all like stopping meds that are truly lowering cancer burden AND PSA level . Finally I noticed some trials from 2001-2006 that were being posted .. Does anything over a few years old even matter with all the new meds out there ??

Seriously guys, I think you're all missing the really key point of TA's original post here... which is that he has a sufficiently well developed sense of humour to seek out and actually appreciate Australian irony!!! That is really saying something, for an east coast yank!!

But really, lighten up fellas - it's just a simple observation that, independent of whatever its impact on the underlying PCa, curcumin appears to have the ability to interfere with PSA measurements. We all suffer from 'PSA anxiety' when that time of the month/quarter rolls around again - I have read quite a few of you say that you meticulously adhere to a ritual of eating/drinking/exercising/timing so as to minimise intra-series variations, and no one makes fun of that because we all share the same anxiety. Move that number one bees-dick in either direction and we are either high as a kite or down in the dumps.

And that being so, TA's information just sounds like good advice to me....

His taste in Australian comedy? Well, that's a whole other thing... personally, I gave up on Get Krack!n about halfway through series one... but there's no accounting for taste!!

Stuart

LOL. Kath and Kim is still my favorite. BTW - I live in L.A.

Oh geeze. I am 4 days late. But this post has me just jumping up and down with glee. I will be adding a bees-dick to my vocabulary. Thank you so much sir.

Really?? Are you seriously trying to tell me that Americans don’t have that phrase??? Hard to believe, for an engineering nation....

Hello Tall_Allen

My german urology he told me before PSA test

Do not make a bicykel riding and intercourse at leat 3 days

Thanks

Thanks for the info and advice, TA. Very interesting stuff. I go to Mayo for my next PSA test on 5/7. I’ll discontinue my supplements at least 3 days prior. Have a great day. 🏌️⛳️😎

Good to know.

It would seem that this study questions it's own findings.

From the study:

"It seems that curcumin suppressed PSA. Although it is possible that 30 days of curcumin reversed the prostate cancer, that is unlikely. It is more plausible that curcumin affected the PSA assay."

Those conducting the study aren't sure as to the effect curcumin has on prostate cancer. They are sure about it's bio-availability and the difficulty of our body's ability to absorb and utilize curcumin. LifeExtension makes perhaps the best supp, Advanced Bio-Curcumin with Ginger & Tumerones. If at the same time one takes a supp derived from black pepper or eats black pepper and a bromelain

As for capsaicin, Dr. Klotz, speaking at uro's conference gave a detailed story of one his patient's that had a PSA in the hundreds whose cancer was hormone resistant, the drugs had stopped working. The patient's family owned a hot sauce factory. He began dosing himself 3X daily. His PSA stabilized. It didn't go down, it stabilized. The patient's internist felt that the hot sauce was interfering with the patient's blood pressure medication and told him to stop the hot sauce. The patient's PSA began increasing rising at the same rate, trajectory that it had been on prior to his self medicating with his family's hot sauce. It is on a YouTube video as Dr. Klotz speaks at the uro's conference. DR. Klotz had a nice graph of the patient's PSA history as a visual aid. The thing to take away from this is that for this particular patient, the hot sauce stopped the rise of his PSA, it did not--lower his PSA. At the behest of his internist to stop the "sauce" his PSA resumed it's upward trajectory. It would seem that capsaicin only stabilizes PSA--in this case.

Last week someone posted a link about PSA and the antigen perhaps enabling cancer to metastasize--???? I believe that is what the study was investigating. Perhaps stabilizing PSA isn't such a bad thing.

Would whoever posted that link please bring it to this discussion. I am pressed for time today. Thank you.

Currumpaw

By the way--green tea is one of the dietary things that is attributed to the low rate of prostate cancer in Japan. The Japanese include seaweed in some of their cuisine. Perhaps a fucoidan supplement wouldn't hurt either.

It masks the PSA test.

Hi Allen,

Great tip, will bear in mind, cause I do tend to drink green tea at least twice a day. And consume grapes and add turmeric to my coffee at least three times a week 🤷‍♂️

Haniff

Tall_Allen do you happen to know the half-life of reseveratrol (or is it similar to curcumin)?

Thanks,

Arthur

"Trans-resveratrol half-life was 1-3 h following single-doses and 2-5 h following repeated dosing."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/191...

Thanks. It is interesting that even though the study lists reservatrol as being least active in terms of its masking effects compared to curcuming, it'll be prudent to stop it before a PSA as well.

In terms of the resveratrol in this study you linked on your blog: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl... I'm having trouble fully understanding reservatrol's masking effects relative that to curcumin. Am I correct in concluding from that paper that, while reservatrol is much less intrusive in this way, it nonetheless is shown to interfere in ways that do contribute to PSA masking, even if less severely? This masking effect is a really important point to keep in mind for PCa patients!

Thanks for your message Tall_Allen and helping clarify the distinction between PSA treatment and Prostate Cancer treatment. Interestingly, my Urologist suggested I take Saw Palmetto to help with urine flow. Concerned that might mask true PSA values, he reassured me he can do the math to correct my PSA value knowing I take Saw Palmetto.

What's the math? No math required with an alpha blocker.

Fascinating discussion. Back in 1998 i started on prostata. A supplement. It lowered my psa from over four to under three for a couple years. But then it jumped to 5.5 and biopsy etc found the gleason 7 with peri neural invasion.

No doubt in my mind that the supplement masked the cancer progression on the psa.

Look Guys and Gals, This seems to me to be a fairly simple issue. I have taken a fair number of supplements since being diagnosed with my cancer # 1, CLL, about 12 years ago and cancer #2, PCa, has only expanded that number. As CLL is a blood cancer, I get a full a blood lab workup every 6 months. In researching the supplements I take, I learned right away that they could affect lab results. In my case I have had sub-normal platelets for most of those 12 years and nearly every supplement I have ever researched has the potential to act as a blood thinner, (Which would most likely also lower my platelet count.) So for that reason alone I started stopping all supplements for 3-5 days before labs in order to get lab results that were unaffected. I also found early on that my non-fasting glucose was all over the map and realized it was based on what and when I ate before labs. So now I get my labs early in the morning and wait to eat until after they are done. I've been doing that for several years now and have a very consistent graph for what is now a non-fasting metabolic condition. I'm also a great believer that doing labs at the same place and at the same time of day is a good policy when possible.

Most importantly, we can all continue to have differing opinions about the efficacy of diet, lifestyle, and supplementation on cancer and health in general. But it seems that stopping all supplements for a few days before labs is a good idea regardless of those differing opinions. However, it seems to me to be wasteful and downright demoralizing to see the often acid banter that clogs the helpful discourse on this forum. The never-ending selfish need to always be right is a poison to the larger goal of sharing experiences and information, while providing compassionate support to ALL points of view. As always, Just my two cents. Lighten Up the Discourse & Be Well,- cujoe

Sherpa111
Sherpa111
in reply to cujoe

Well said.

cujoe
cujoe
in reply to Sherpa111

Thanks

d55eng
d55eng
in reply to cujoe

Thank you, Cujoe! I appreciate your compassionate support and kind and open approach in an environment where emotions and stakes can run high! Thanks for your well expressed message!

cujoe
cujoe
in reply to d55eng

D55eng, No doubt, most people come here for some sort of support. I can't imagine a single one who does so to be insulted or talked down to. Most of us have had enough of that before we get here. The absolute least we can do is respect their right to come to their own conclusions about what is best for them and be courteous in our discourse. We can always "agree to disagree" and do it in a decent and caring way, maybe with even a bit of humor thrown it for good measure. Thanks for the comment. Be Well - cujoe

d55eng
d55eng
in reply to cujoe

Thanks for your kind and wise message, Cujoe! Social media is interesting in its ability to sometimes solicit, encourage or otherwise simply allow the unfiltered, unedited and impulsive comment. Sometimes I wonder if participants assume a contrary point of view, not because of content, but only because it is contrary! Social Media is the new Road Rage. Wishing you the best of health. -Don

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to cujoe

👍

How big could this difference be in % and is it also important for people with a prostate, or let's say before treatment or only in the zero point something range? what about statins falsing psa test?

Mkeman
Mkeman
in reply to Myriammole

When I started the PC journey 20 months ago my MO suggested I stop taking all supplements because there is little evidence about how they might affect Eligard, Zytiga. Prednisone or Zometa. The exception was calcium and vitamin D which my endocrinologist was insisting on for myosteoporosis. My PSA has been undetectable since. Good enough for me. But I respect the right of each of you to take whatever it is that you think helps you. Maybe just thinking it helps...helps.

what about curcumin and stable metal ion complexes and Ga-68-PSMA-11 PET CT scan? could it show false positives? not clear about that point.

False negatives for the scans because it draws the radioactive metal ion away from the PSMA ligand.

puxi
puxi
in reply to Tall_Allen

Elaborate your answer please. This statement is based on what?

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to puxi

Explained in article.

Four words "CHOCOLATE CHIP ICE CREAM" - (two scoops, three if the wife is not watching).

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 04/29/2019 10:23 PM DST

I'd take this post very carefully.... there are hundreds of articles about PSA variations according to the most "exotic" trials (even humidity) just to say that there are a lot of rubbish studies (peer reviewed papers) around. Every one knows that PSA changes even from day to day (in some cases up to 25%) NOT related to any supplements.... So, by nature, PSA should be observed as an relative value instead of "absolute" ... so don't be stressed by such "noises" too much. My recommendation, do everything as you do normally (your supplements and so on) before any test, than you have a reliable check because you body have an equilibrium that can be "disturbed" by such actions of changing what you take in! And on top of everything: everyone is different... don't trust those who claim to have discovered THE UNIQUE solution because what is valid for a group of people fails in this context to other groups of people despite double blind or other.

Everyone is so worked up with PSA's at .5 or 1.1 I have never been able to get belong 24. I don't ride a bike, Haven't have sex in 30 years and could'nt care less. The cancer is going to get me sooner or later. Suppliments and off the wall treatments from snake oil salesmen isn't going to do anything for my condition but part me and my money. But then I suppose if I think its better then so be it.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to Peepers

Different PSA levels are important in different situations. A man who has just had a prostatectomy, for example, is rightly concerned by a persistent PSA of 0.5, while a man who has never been treated would be thrilled with that PSA.

Everyone is so worked up with PSA's at .5 or 1.1 I have never been able to get belong 24. I don't ride a bike, Haven't have sex in 30 years and could'nt care less. The cancer is going to get me sooner or later. Suppliments and off the wall treatments from snake oil salesmen isn't going to do anything for my condition but part me and my money. But then I suppose if I think its better then so be it.

HiddenThis reply has been deleted
monte1111
monte1111
in reply to Hidden

Hope you are doing well sir. I have enjoyed this post immensely. I have decided not to be confused by the facts. A bees-dick and happy as a pig in shit is what I shall take away from all these wonderful replies with the greatest of warm happiness. A deep bow and thanks to all. Enjoy.

I am stage 4, spread to the bone in 5 places in 2018, did chemo and on lupron , the compound did not change anything. My psa was .6 but rose to 1.8 at last test, I am wondering if the components in the supplement olive leaf extract 500 mg daily for blood pressure could be blamed , that us the only thing different. It has a thing that is used to block estrogen hormone in women that has breast cancer. Maybe it is blocking some of my hormone lupron, I feel good and still work part time , age 67.

You do not know what drug interactions may be with supplements. Also, you have no idea what your PSA would have been.

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