Many in-vitro and in-vivo studies point to antiproliferative, antimetastatic, anti-inflammatory, anti-invasive, etc. properties that Curcumin have against prostate cancer cells.
But the compound is also regarded as a significant booster of Testosterone, which is a major driver of androgen-sensitive prostate cancer cells.
Can anyone make sense of this? Like how can it be a "positive agent" against the condition if at the same time it's boost a top driver of it?
IMO, examining evidence in this way will drive you crazy.Take a look at oxygen. I can create a scenario to show you lack of it is detrimental to your health. I could then show create some stats that have an extremely high correlation to hypoxia and death. Is the data good? I'd ague that it is. Now all you need to do is take take my all new oxygen supplement. Guaranteed to give you more oxygen.
Now let's revise oxygen again. Oxygen is an oxidant- and an extremely powerful one at that. Oxygen, being an oxidant, can be shown to kill cancer cells in a dish. I can show an experiment to prove it with data.
But what happens if I get too much oxygen? Bad stuff will start to happen. You could die.
Testing things in isolation in this way is the double edged sword, not oxygen.
Your body is incredibly complex, with a multitude of feedback loops involving chemical, hormone and electrical interactions. All specific to you personally.
There's an exponential number of confounding variables- environments, nutrients, medications, treatments, sunlight, exercise, epigentics, sleep patterns, allergies, existing health issues, where you live, stress and many many more.
So do you think it's probable that a single compound in isolation will somehow correct a system as complicated as that?
It's possible, but unlikely.
However, I do think that it's probable that you can cause an imbalance by taking something in isolation. Much better to introduce things into your diet holistically, IMO.
Does taking it holistically mean taking it with food as part of our diet?
Yes, it’s a vast, complex situation we’re trying to navigate, through choppy waters with mists all around. I’m hoping that some of the herbs I’m including in my diet and in supplements will work in synergy to in some way help my body fight this cancer. I’ve read so many studies in the last few weeks that my head’s swimming. And I can’t help feeling that there’s more than one way to skin a cat. Herbs alongside western medicine.
Yeah, I'm not against trying things. Go for it. My approach would be to introduce positive things holistically. Diet, sunshine, exercise etc.For nutrients specifically I'd try to get them through diet as opposed to a supplement if you can. Supplements can lead to imbalances. People will also tend to be heavy on them because they believe they must max out on them.
I think people will generally read some paper with some proposed benefits and supplement it heavily. For example, taking excessive D3 would have effects on calcium absorption etc. You'd be better off getting D3 from sunlight where your body can regulate and sulfate it. Less chance of imbalances that way.
Btw, chances are that if you take supplements like curcumin, your liver will probably detox them. If i remenber right, this is why people take pepperine with curcumin - it inhibits the liver detoxing it and so you get to absorb it. I think that's right.
Is that a good thing? Who knows really.It's being detoxed for a reason. Your body isn't stupid. What im suggesting is high dosage of something probably won't work as you're expecting amd is quite complex.
It will depend on one's situation being tackled concerning whether the primary focus needs to be on supplements, food, or supplements/food--this, the latter I find the best in most situations.
Both Ginger and Tumeric are considered to possess as wide-range of anti-cancer properties. In the case of Tumeric, it's because of Curcumin. In the case of Ginger, its due to the phytocompounds Gingerols and Shogaols. If you're fairly healthy and consuming either as a "preventive measure" for common health problems then just consuming the raw herbs regularly could be a significant help.
But if you're dealing with more serious conditions where much higher levels of the phytocompounds are needed to impact the condition positively, then "standardized extracts" would be required. You could not possibly get enough of the phytocompound by eating the raw herb alone for the situation.
TIP: Growing research is pointing out that the combination of the Standardized Extract + the Raw Herb works better than either alone. It's because the standardized extract has the "most powerful medicine" from the herb in highly concentrated form, while the raw herb has it also, but along with other "co-players" ( lesser compounds) that can help the "most powerful medicine" to work even better.
Yeah, I'm all for people trying things they think will have a positive impact. If you think taking a supplement has enough evidense to do that then go for it 👍
What I will say though, is when you read these papers, they have generally been done in a reductionist way. Your body is totally different. Curcumin, for example,, will be detoxed by the liver, which is why you also need the pepperine to be able to absorb it.
Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. Just ask my wife. She's got a good memory for things like that 😀
I’m totally with you on getting as much as possible holistically, through diet/exercise/sun… and I guess I’m just trying to research as much as possible and find my bearings at the moment. This is terra incognita… new dx 2 months ago. Working it all out and following soc and what feels right but doesn’t interfere.
I have read over 1200 studies and have come to believe that a good lifestyle, herbs and supplements are the only thing that will save me. Plus, I feel really good with abundant energy. I’m taking a dozen herbs and supplements and banking on the synergistic effects.
Cheers.
Great to hear that you’re full of energy… What are the herbs and supplements you’re taking?
Good luck to you!
This is totally unrelated to my Inquiry. I am needing to get an answer that's related to the question which has to do with how can Curcumin show anti-prostate cancer effects on one hand, while boosting testosterone on the other?
Sure, why do you believe it does?
What papers have you read to reflect that? Probably post some links.
Relevancy ??
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK5...
Good case for rotating on and off of supps here and there. I don't hear of many cases of problems supplementing with curcumin/turmeric, so I suspect it's not widespread. But anything can be overdone.
Just a few tidbits off of the Internet.
What does turmeric curcumin do for you?
Turmeric — and especially its most active compound, curcumin — has many scientifically proven health benefits, such as the potential to improve heart health and prevent Alzheimer's and cancer. It's a potent anti-inflammatory and antioxidant. It may also help improve symptoms of depression and arthritis. Nov 27, 2023
Are turmeric and curcumin the same thing?
So what's the difference? Turmeric is a plant and it's the roots of the plant that are used to make the spice that is used in cooking and herbal drinks. Curcumin is the naturally occurring compound within the plant's roots that give it it's bright yellow color and is known as a carotenoid compound.
Is it safe to take turmeric curcumin every day?
When taken by mouth: Turmeric is likely safe when used short-term. Turmeric products that provide up to 8 grams of curcumin daily seem to be safe when used for up to 2 months, Also, taking up to 3 grams of turmeric daily seems to be safe when used for up to 3 months. Turmeric usually doesn't cause serious side effects.
Does curcumin have side effects?
What Are the Side Effects of Too Much Turmeric?
These may include: Digestive issues: People may experience mild digestive issues such diarrhea. Headache: Doses of 500 mg or higher may cause headache and nausea in a small number of people. Skin rash: Some people have reported a skin rash after taking curcumin, but this seems to be very rare.
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n
I'm not sure how much Turmeric boosts testosterone, but it probably wouldn't be much. Ditto for exercise and diet in general. Readers should keep in mind that testosterone alone does not cause prostate cancer - otherwise, young men would be plagued by prostate cancer! No, it's a complicated equation, as others here have pointed out. I'm also fairly sure that an increase in men's testosterone does not cause the modern pandemic of prostate cancer! In fact, the opposite seems to be true - testosterone, on average, is diminishing in modern men.
My approach to such supplements is to try them. If no noticeable difference, then stop taking them. As for curcumin I tried for a while, saw no noticeable difference, and eventually stopped taking it. I found significant effect in lycopene, (tomato-based food), and possibly cardamom.
What effect did you notice by eating foods with lycopene? I have been eating things like sundried tomatoes which are high in lycopene but haven’t noticed any difference in my health.
I had pain on my tailbone which disappeared after eating spaghetti dinners which was noticeable when I bowled in evenings after dinner, due to the hard seats at the bowling alley. While also having a Lupron injection, the pain from that went away in less than a month.
Interesting, anecdotal but it reinforces the positive aspects of eating more lycopene rich foods. Don’t see a downside…
Thanks!
You won't if in addition to the beneficial sundried tomatoes you're eating lots of other foods that promote the processes instead of inhibit them such as excess animal meats, sweets and sugar, foods high in sat. fats/trans fats/polyunsaturated fats, high carb diets, lots of peanut butter, of fried or baked foods, etc.
Personally, I thought I was okay with Peanut Butter, something I'm addicted to and was even given the "green light" on by my nutritionist. Wow, was she wrong. Too much of the stuff hits you with excessive Omega-6 which is the pro-inflammatory Omega oil that leads to major inflammation that plays a role in the progression of the condition. Also a com-pound in Peanut Butter spikes pro-inflammatory cytokine Interleukin-6, a huge driver of numerous biological pathways related to the initiation, growth, and progress of the condition.
Ugh, I never knew that about peanut butter. I am definitely addicted to peanut butter normally with bananas every day.. One more thing I love that I will have to either give up or really cut down on. Appreciate the info…
😱
I got a lot of life to try and live in a short time.
Im just eating healthy and not spending my life looking into this stuff. Its all over the place.
Not much different than coffee is good for you then it isn't. My poor parents. They downed a grapefruit reluctantly every day for about 10 years cause it was supposed to delay cardiac issues. At some point they woke up to their folly. Thankfully they didnt get wrapped up in the rip off supplement world and fill the coffers of the corporate heads of those companies.
Wish I was treated with intent to cure then maybe I would have some time to waste.
Curcumin has been around through the history of mankind & has anti-inflammatory properties. I take Theracurmin which has 30mg curcumin for arthritis so I know it works for that but what does it do for the cancer?
I think that you're misreading someone's "take" on curcumin, here:
"Studies report that increased oxidative stress within certain testicular cells, known as Leydig cells, can lower testosterone production. Curcumin reduces oxidative stress within them, promoting better testicular function— resulting in enhanced testosterone production ."
Let me rephrase that, the way I see it: If one's prostate is suffering oxidative stress, curcumin (or any substance that is an anti-oxidant (Vitamin, C, or cumumin, or...) will "fix" those cells that are not producing as much T as they should, thus increasing T (in a low-T scenario)
In other words, all curcumin would do would be to correct sub-standard production of T. It would not increase tesosterone above "normal."
As such, I believe that you could take all the curcumin you wanted (within reason, everything is toxic at a certain level, even water) and it would not increase testosterone above what your prostate (if healthy) would produce.
There is some evidence that curcumin can "kill" cancer. However, let's say that curcumin increases apoptosis by 2%, but the cancer is producing new cancer cells at a rate of 3%. Well, in reality, curcumin will not kill (all) cancer cells.
As I see it, curcumin, Quercetin, celecoxib, and others are most helpful by interfering with a cluster of cancer cell's ability to do angiogenesis. A single cell must cluster and then the cluster must attach itself and in a very complex procedure that cluster MUST create a tube, angiogenesis, the blood supply that will allow the cluster to grow.
I do not believe that ANY food can "kill your cancer," but many substances (as listed above) can hinder cancer's ability to metastasize, especially to distant locations.
Quite frankly I believe that you can take curcumin (up to about 1 gram/day) preferably with black pepper or piperine (which helps the body absorb curcumin) without worrying about any "increasing testosterone."
Beware! Many bottles of supplements state: Tumeric Curcumin. Even I once read that as: "Oh, that means it is curcumin from Tumeric," No,No, No.... it should say "curcumin 95% or 98%. Otherwise the "proprietary blend" might be 100 grams of cheap, relatively useless tumeric powder with a "teensey-weensie bit of curcumin." Read closely.
Re-read the Post for clarification. It refers to curcumin as a "double-edge sword" because of the fact that testosterone is a top driver of prostate cancer cells, the reason ADT is administered to drastically lower the hormone, and curcumin is reported to boost its levels by protecting leydig cells of the testes that produce it from oxidative stress.
On the other hand, curcumin is reported to have impressive anti-cancer effects against prostate cancer cells via antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, DHT blocking, androgen receptor inhibition, modulating biological pathways, etc.
So "double-edged sword" in the sense of it increasing levels of Testosterone-which fuel prostate cancer cells--on one hand, while fighting the condition in myriad ways on the other hand.
Depends on the T value. There is a theory as old as the: "T is like throwing gasoline to a fire" that claims high T to be impeding progression. There was a user here, not posting any more, that kept his PSA low by injecting cyprionate for 2+ years. My T has been over 1600 for 3 years now, all endogenous, and I adjust my Bicalutamide dosage to 1/10 the standard dosage, thus maintaining my PSA to the limits of detection (latest reading 0.006). Plus, my PSA doesn't get affected by taking or not curcumin. The tricky range of T, IMO, being between 200 and 350.
Yes, I understand the "double-edged sword analogy." However, what I tried to point out is that curcumin only was proposed to fix ailing Leydig cells. Curcumin does not in any way force or let the body produce any more T than it normally would.
To sum it up: Curcumin never causes "more" T than the body normally would produce, it can only help if a person's Leydig cells are ailing and that does't come into play. Even if a guy's Leydig cells were ailing, the meds shut down the mechanism of T production.
Bottom line: No amount of Curcumin will create any new, or any "more" T.
I'm a big fan of turmeric and have been taking 3g daily for 20 odd years. It has really helped with my back pains.The fact that I was diagnosed with PCa 4 years ago and then had a recurrence 1 year ago leads me to believe that turmeric is neither preventative nor curative. At best, it may be inhibitive, but that would be difficult to determine.
It's impact is going to be determined by the type and its bioavailability. Taking mounds of tumeric does not "cut the mustard." Hardly any of it is likely to get to where it needs to go to to target specific processes related to PCa unless it's liposomal, taken with DMSO, or uses a high-tech delivery system designed to get it through processes in the digestive system that degrades it.
Hi B2H. I've been taking curcumin for 2 years now, along with a host of other herbs and supplements. I am a firm believer in curcumin. The BIG problem with curcumin (the orange part of turmeric) is that it barely absorbable. The cucrumin must be in nanoparticle and liposomal (fat) formulation for decent absorbtion. After looking into several brands, I have been using CuraMed by Terry Naturally. I also take resveratrol, astragalus, Swanson's Pygeum Africanum, Sulforaphane (Inno Nutrition: Broccoli 20X) and more. When I started leuprolide, my PSA dropped very fast (90 down to 6.2 in 6 weeks. Was 1.3 when last tested in June) and my energy has never been better - despite having little testosterone. I biked 530 kms in August as a fundraiser for Kids with Cancer. I am also on a clean diet - no bread-little red meat, no food containng sugar, lots of seeds, olives, olive oil and nuts and other healthy things). Read this vital book: Natural Strategies for Cancer Patients by Russell Blaylock
Great to see that your PSA numbers took the "nose dive" Dave! Hope you keep them down. Yes, about curcumin's poor absorption, only a tiny fraction of it gets into the system. Actually, more specifically, high percentages of it gets absorbed into the body, but most of its critical "break-down" products , the curcuminoids are conjugated/bound in the intestines so that a tiny percentage of "free curcuminoids" actually reach the targeted tissues.
I've been a longtime user of Life Extension's Super-Bio Curcumin, Curcumin Elite, and the Advanced Elite because of the research-backed designs put into them to give them high absorption, the ability to get beyond digestive hurdles, stability of bioactive compounds, and their ability to prolong these key compounds in the targeted tissues and cells.
The Super-Bio Curcumin is the product that has the BCM-95 curcumin form in it that proved to be 7 times more effective than curcumin enhanced with piperine and lecithin, and has been researched in over 70 scientific studies. Supposedly, it's the "gold standard," developed in the country of its over 2,000 year medicinal heritage, India, and recognized the most internationally. It's a curcumin powder concentrated 25:1 sourced from a region of India known for soils that produce high levels of the bioactives in it and is bound to 380 mg of essential oil of tumeric rhizome that enhance absorption, and I am told makes it more stable and longer lasting in the body than other brands.
NatureCity, a major marketer of BCM-95, did explain that other forms such as nano and liposomal outperforms BCM-95 in terms of allowing considerable amounts to get into the body fast, but these amounts were not as stable and durable as the BCM-95 bound to tumeric essential oil. And that these bioactive compounds exert their power by being able to remain stable and more enduring in the targeted tissues and cells.
Dave, the Astragalus looks good being in the picture, given that it's a proven immune enhancer. Personally though, I think it could benefit from a little more support, especially because the Immune System is the Body's First Line of Defense against cancer cells, virus, bacteria, etc. When we get cancer, it means that cancer cells have already "tricked" or deactivated much of the immune response to them that's trying to destroy them before they get out of hand. Beta Glucans, AHCC, and medical mushroom extracts like Reishi and Agaricus Blaezi are well known to step-up the immune system in ways that "turn-the-tables" back against cancer cells, allowing macrophages, Natural Killer Cells, and other immune fighters to do what they do best.
In recurrent Pca, is it possible to know to which gleason-grade group the surviving cancer cells belong?
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