Soy Isoflavones-Updated 071522

[pbaldwin]

Hi Guys,

I wanted to share my experience with taking soy isoflavones. I read here about some studies that showed a possible benefit in taking soy. So I ordered some from Life Extension supplement company. I thought why not give it a shot. So I start taking them on 03/19. The recommended dose is 1 tablet per day, but I started with 2 per day. My psa on 02/26 was 3.3. I did my bw on 04/16 and it was 1.9. I don't know why but just had a feeling the my psa went down and it did.

I will make a chart so it will be easier to follow:

02/26/22 PSA 3.3

03/19 STARTED SOY SUPPLEMENT

04/15 STOPPED TAKING ZYTIGA, it was not helping

04/16 BW SHOWED PSA OF 1.9

05/11 BW SHOWED PSA OF 1.6

06/15 BW SHOWED PSA OF 1.5

07/14 BW SHOWED PSA OF 1.9 (Only taking 1 pill a day as recommended)

So needless to say I am happy with the results and I feel this has bought me some time before I have to make a new treatment decision. My Onc asked my what did I do differently and I told him about the soy. I'm was annoyed because he didn't even ask any details. I feel like this could be something..

I did have some side effects which kept me from taking 2 pills every day. I believe that by not taking it as often as I planned, I didn't get even further decrease in PSA. I got small blisters on my chest which eventually went away and some on my arms. As of the week or so I have not been taking the supplement. I'm due for my doctors visit in about 2 weeks and I will restart taking it but only 1 pill per day to hopefully minimize any side effects. Also, the slight ache in my left lower ribs subsided. I suspect this was a spot to showing on my scans. Insurance would not pay for PET SCAN.

I don't know how this will end but I thought I'd share my experience. I am in no way being paid to share this. I can also share my bloodwork results if needed. I am stage 4 (diagnosed 09/2016) gleason 9, tx has been docetaxel, lupron, xgeva, and zytiga.

Please let me know what you guys think.

Best,

Philip

[Hidden]

Curious as to why you stopped taking Zytiga. Did your doctor recommend that? Typically you would have imaging and determine the cancer is progressing before changing treatment, despite small rises in PSA.

That's my understanding, but your doctor will know more so best to discuss with him/her.

[pbaldwin in reply to Hidden]

I've been off and on Zytiga and my psa was continuing to go up. It is just a lot taking all the medications. I will be talking with him in about 2 weeks and see what he says.

[Magnus1964]

Thanks for sharing.

[LearnAll]

Prostate Cancer deaths are lowest in Asians ,intermediate in Caucasians and Hispanics and highest in African Americans...(almost 400% higher than Asians.) Guess who eats fermented Soy daily in their diet !

[rscic in reply to LearnAll]

An association and not real evidence but this might be all we have at this point.

[MrG68 in reply to rscic]

Unless you're prepared to put genetically identical cloned people in a controlled environment and control every single parameter in their lives and vary the thing you are testing, its ALL association - EVERY single thing you read. The best you can hope for is an overwhelming association that makes it undeniable that it's a cause. Smoking is an example.

[rscic in reply to MrG68]

As you seem to say there are degrees of association & different ethnic groups on different diets might be a looser association ...... more research might give us some better clues ...... I actually hope diet, in some way, is a significant factor in delaying PCa disease progression. It seems a reasonable risk to adopt a higher soy content diet as there does not seem to be evidence harm will come of it but to RELIE on this is unwise given what we don't know at the present time.

[pbaldwin in reply to rscic]

Yes I agree. I'm not putting all my eggs in this basket, lol. As we know, there are not a whole lot of tx options for mscpc. I'm still keeping with my doctor, exercise, and diet. I'm just hoping this can buy me some time. The criteria that my doctor uses (and I'm not saying this is the best) is: how I feel, any pain/aches, psa readings, and ct/bone scans. All of these marks are in good standing so I'm willing to take a bit of a risk at this junction to get any possible benefit.

[rscic in reply to pbaldwin]

Please keep us posted

[pbaldwin]

You and asians lol. What do you think about my psa lowering? It is good news, right?

[LearnAll in reply to pbaldwin]

Your PSA fall of close to 50% is good news.. absolutely. Its not a laughing matter.. If Soy Isoflavones were patentable, they would have submitted for patent with FFFDA...because the criteria used for effectiveness is 50% fall in PSA for approval.

BTW, What brand of Isoflavones are you using ?

[pbaldwin in reply to LearnAll]

Yes 50% drop is amazing. I'm hoping that when i resume, i can take the recommended 1 pill per day without any skin blisters. I bought fro Life Extension, Super Absorbable Soy Isoflavones 60 tabs. I think they make high quality supplements. I'm sure not all soy isoflavones supplements are made the same. These are standardized and the soy is fermented.

[rscic]

Some things mask PSA readings ...... however, I do not know if soy is one of these.

[pbaldwin in reply to rscic]

Yes, that is true. I don't think it's masking though. As I mentioned, I will see how things pan out. I do know the ache I had in my lower ribs has subsided. So I think it is doing something. We'll see...

[rscic in reply to pbaldwin]

Thanks for keeping us updated on your experiences.

[MrG68 in reply to rscic]

Yes, apparently some things interfere with readings. The thing is though, if the equipment was accurate and you took the same dose, you’d expect the reading to be down by the same percentage amount. Hypothesising of course. Who knows what magic they use with this type of equipment. This is a downward trend. You would expect that the possible reduction in psa was not cumulative from the 10% value. This is.

Also a 50% change in the reading is quite a change. I think it’s expected around 10% ? Just going from what’s been posted on the subject previously. It’s not something I’ve looked into to determine it’s validity.

[pbaldwin in reply to MrG68]

No as I mentioned, I got off to a good start with taking it but was not consistent because of some side affects. I believe this may have caused the drop off in percentage. I just restarted yesterday and will take every day. This time I'm only taking the recommended 1 capsule a day and can hopefully tolerate that without issue. We will see what my psa is in approx 2 weeks. Thanks again!!

[MrG68 in reply to pbaldwin]

Yeah sure, I know what you are saying. The thing i would point out is that although you had a drop on psa, the trend of your readings at the worst case are consistent. That’s good IMO. I think people fret with the psa absolute reading. If I had a psa of 10 that never moved, that to me is a big win. Yours is even going down.

Yes, people will point out that you could have possible interference with the equipment readings due to the supplements used (or maybe not), but I believe that people should be pleased to see no change in the trend just as much. That would indicate to me no progression - worst case.

👍

[KocoPr]

Thanks for sharing your experience and looking forward to updates.

[MateoBeach]

Good response. I would keep it. I take several flavonoid supplements that have good track records in myself and others and plausible mechanisms for benefit in PC. Even though not proven in randomized clinical trials.

I would appeal the insurance declining the PSMA PET scan. It could provide information that might help guide treatment decisions. Ask your MO to appeal it.

[pbaldwin]

Ok, thanks for your feedback. Yes the claim was initially denied because of reasons that didnt make much sense. I dont understand all the medical jargon but what i did understand did not make sense to deny. I relied on my doctor (Cancer Center of NJ) to resubmit and was denied again. The insurance clearly did not want to pay. So Im reconsidering a new doctor and perhaps some type of cancer patient advocate. For now I'm happy with this little success and no doubt have bought myself some time before I need to make a new tx decision.

[Pops78]

Wonder if drinking Soy Milk would also help?

[pbaldwin in reply to Pops78]

I drink soy milk too, not everyday though. I don't think it would have the same affect because it's not as strong as the supplement.

[Graham49]

PjOshea13 has extensively reviewed the evidence previously for soy. He ended with these comments:

"I believe that genistein is a useful supplement at pharma-doses.

I stay clear of soy foods, but they would be safe if a very large supplemental soy extract were also used - IMO.

-Patrick"

What dose is each of the tablets you take?

Thanks ffor posting. Please keep us updated.

[pbaldwin]

I would agree with his comments as well. Please see attached the supplement information. I've compared other brands and most if not all do not compare to what's put into this one.

supplement information for soy isoflavanes

[MrG68 in reply to pbaldwin]

I prefer to try and eat the foods instead of the supplements where possible.If you eat natto, you'll get around 80mg of isoflavones which is approx 2 capsules from most supplements. This, however, is fermented and in its natural form with no processing. Additionally you'll get nattokinaise and K2. If you're supplementing with D3, you should also supplement with K2 because D3 will deplete K2 and you'll potentially have calcium issues.

You can make it by buying the bacteria spores online, but its a relatively cheap food. You can get it in Asian supermarkets. I buy a months worth based on 1 serving a day and freeze them.

Be warned though, it's a unique taste and loaded with bacteria so it's relatively slimy.

Store Bought Natto.

[pbaldwin in reply to MrG68]

not sure I can stomach that, lol. did you see the supplement facts from the one I'm taking. I think I'm getting more. Natto would definitely be an adjustment for me. But thanks for sharing the info!!

supplement facts for soy isoflavanes capsules

[MrG68 in reply to pbaldwin]

Yeah, it’s difficult for some people. Not everyone can eat it that’s for sure. You’re supplements are standardized to 40% for isoflavones. If I remember right this is the ‘guaranteed’ dose by the manufacturer. Not sure how binding that is though.

Chances are you’re getting more than that though I would have thought.

[pbaldwin in reply to MrG68]

Yes, I compared to several other brands on Amazon and none come close to this brand. Life extension is a reputable company and I see something happening with psa

[MrG68 in reply to pbaldwin]

Yup, great news. Hope it continues to fall. 👍

[MrG68 in reply to pbaldwin]

Sorry, I totally forgot to mention something. I though I included it but obviously not!You can also get soy isoflavones including genistein from miso soup. I believe you’ll get the phytoestrogens on top of that. So if you can’t stomach natto, most people can handle miso no problem. This is also a fermented soy product and is seriously overlooked / underestimated IMO. You can have a few cups of that every day. Obviously it has a decent amount of salt in there if you’re concerned. I’ve never been concerned about salt though personally, but 2 cups a day won’t kill you. I know because I drink it.

One cup will have much more isoflavones than you’re getting from your supplements. I looked at this a while ago, so the amounts are a little hazy. I think it’s half the amount of natto?, which should be equivalent to about 5 of those supplements. That’s the worst case by the way, you ‘should’ get even more from a decent brand. It’s a good source and has great bioavailability and a fraction of the cost. Food sources are always better than supplements IMO.

Top tip: stick in some tofu to increase it even more - again if you like the taste. I’ve even been known to put in some tempeh. This is also a fermented soy product, although it can be a little bitter.

Hope that helps. 👍

[pbaldwin]

Also, not an expert, just trying to live longer lol. From what I understand, there is a difference between fermented and unfermented soy. You want the fermented version when it comes to consumption.

[MrG68 in reply to pbaldwin]

Yes, fermented soy is a far superior product. It has a multitude of benefits. If you can stomach it, eat natto. This is fermented soy beans. Most people hate it, but it’s an acquired taste and I love it. This is where you get nattokinase from and it’s loaded with K2.

[pbaldwin in reply to MrG68]

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated!!

[j-o-h-n]

Greetings pbaldwin, Would you please be kind enough to tell us where you live? City/State.... Thank you...

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Sunday 06/26/2022 10:49 PM DST

[pbaldwin]

Thank you! Old Bridge, NJ

[RusLand]

Hello, pbaldwin! I also read here about studies where the Chinese killed prostate cancer in vitro with soy isoflavones and decided to try it on the principle that it would not be worse..)) Apparently we read it together, I also take it for the third month against the background of using only Zoladex 3.6 mg once every 45 days.. And I found that my PSA began to fall twice as fast by 30 - 40% every month.. In order to remove the effect of masking PSA, as when taking Avodart, I began to control the ratio of free to total PSA and this is what I got: 03.29 before the start of taking PSA - 0.086; 04.29: PSA - 0.061, free - 0.028, ratio - 45%; 06.08: PSA - 0.046, free - 0.020, ratio - 43%. I don't think my PSA is masked, it really crashes and it works! As a source of soy isoflavones, I chose a dietary supplement for women, which they take to mitigate the side effects of hormonal adjustment during menopause ..)) Here is its composition: Tablets 1 table.active ingredients:

calcium (in the form of calcium carbonate — 625.0 mg) 250.0 mg

magnesium (in the form of magnesium oxide — 207.5 mg) 125.0 mg

isoflavones (in the form of soy isoflavones — 150.0 mg) at least 60.0 mg

iridoids (in the form of motherwort extract — 50.0 mg) not less than 1.0 mg

aucubin (in the form of vitex fruit extract — 40.0 mg) at least 0.24 mg

vitamin PP / B3 (in the form of niacinamide — 18.0 mg) 18.0 mg

vitamin B5 (in the form of calcium pantothenate — 6.522 mg) 6.0 mg

vitamin K1 (in the form of phytomenadion 5% (gum arabic, sucrose, phytomenadion) — 2.4 mg) 0.12 mg

vitamin D3 (in the form of cholecalciferol 100 IU / mg) 0.005 mg

vitamin B6 (in the form of pyridoxine hydrochloride 2.0 mg) 2.0 mg

[pbaldwin]

Hi Rusland,

Thanks so much for sharing! So your psa as of late is 0.046? What is the brand that you are taking? Is it just local to your country or on Amazon? The supplement your are taking seems to have a nice mix of supplements. I'll keep you posted when I do my blood in work in about 2 weeks. We shall see??

Philip

[RusLand]

Hi! Yes, unfortunately, this is a Russian-made supplement and it is not exported. 30 capsules per month costs 6.5 dollars.. Yes, at the very least the PSA was 0.046 ng/ml. I will also take tests in 5 days and report the results.. Good luck to you and God bless us all!